Shooting through auto glass

[Klint Beastwood]

you probably wouldnt with the exception of armed security people preventing access to certain facilities or similar, armored car driver maybe? the sheriff in this area got his pee pee slapped for authorizing a police sharpshooter (sorry, not really snipers in my book) to whack some dude during a high speed pursuit on the freeway from a helicopter. i mean the heli got close and everything, and it was a safe shot, a clean kill and the car rolled to a stop and stuff. So shooting through cars whether good or bad, does happen stateside.
In afghanistan, it was pen flare them to let them know not to get to close...if they ignored it...which is hard to do, then it was die mother f****er, die. difference is out there you cant trust that they aren't trying to hit your mounted or dismounted patrol with a vbied.

 

[KeyboardCommando]

Depends on the range, the ammunition and the firearm used. Some bullets will go through, like steel core, while flat points/soft/hollow will do other things.

 

[herrwalther]

Now someone needs to tell me why you would shoot into a car! Given the poor performance of small arms against automobiles, under what circumstances do you feel a private citizen should attempt to engage someone who was in an automobile?

A truck is a far more impressive weapon than most firearms. Terrorists used trucks in Stockholm in April of this year to ram a store. And just one year ago a delivery truck killed dozens in Nice, France. While the chance of hitting a driver of a speeding truck is slim to none, I'll take those odds any day of the week. The TSA even issued a report for US truck rental companies to keep up with their security measures to dissuade attacks here.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...inst-truck-ramming-attacks-terrorists-n754576

In afghanistan, it was pen flare them to let them know not to get to close...if they ignored it...which is hard to do, then it was die mother f****er, die. difference is out there you cant trust that they aren't trying to hit your mounted or dismounted patrol with a vbied.

We weren't allowed pen flares unfortunately. But then again the main difference is a Mk19 is a wonderful vehicle stopper compared to any kind of handgun or rifle.

 

[PoPo22]

When I was still on our "Tac-Team" (mid-90's) we would practice semi-frequently on vehicles/glass. I am sure ballistics of modern bullets have improved considerably since then. We generally found that handgun rounds penetrated through most types of glass at POA as long as we were not too close to the glass (if too close they would not have time to stabilize before striking the glass, usually at least 10-12"). We had better results also with heavier bullets and higher velocities.

When shooting into the car doors it all depended on what metal components were struck on the way through as to whether penetration was made. The closer to a 90 degree angle when struck the better chance of penetration and less deflection. Obviously our "MP5's" fared better because of higher velocities of the bullets.

When shooting "OUT" of the vehicles we found it more difficult simply due to lack of space and glass being too close to the barrel when firing (not allowing the bullet to stabilize before being deflected). When shooting out from the front seat positions we found it more advantageous to fire multiple shots in order to overcome the windshield obstruction with the follow-up shots.

As stated previously, some of the windshields with greater angles did occasionally deflect bullets of lower velocity from the outside but this didn't seem to be consistent, I think your angle to the glass was the biggest factor in this (along with lower velocity rounds).

 

[Creaky_Old_Cop]

Now someone needs to tell me why you would shoot into a car! Given the poor performance of small arms against automobiles, under what circumstances do you feel a private citizen should attempt to engage someone who was in an automobile?

Years ago in Phoenix (1996/97 as I remember), there was an influx of gang members from LA. A local initiation was to ambush cops. A car full of subjects rolled up on a Phoenix cruiser and began firing into it.

An armed security guard ran up and unloaded his Taurus PT92 into the subject vehicle. The subject vehicle fled. The officers were not killed. As I remember one of the subjects took rounds which went through the front windshield.

Without getting into hypotheticals that aren't likely...that's the only one I have.

 

[entropy]

My Dad hit a passenger door with a load of buck once-he was trying to hit the top of the front tire. The perp was not hit by any of the pellets, but it scared him into stopping. My dad started hitting the Skeet range after that...

 

[Chuck R.]

Timely thread....I'm taking a Dave Spaulding Vehicular Combatives class on SAT/SUN and the guys hosting have 3 cars lined up for us to shoot through/around. Afterwards we've been invited to try our SD ammo. I'll post up on Monday what generally happens.

I've shot through windshields in an earlier class and from what I saw it depended on proximity of shooter and target.

Chuck

 

[Chuck R.]

Quick update based on the class I finished yesterday. Students shot through windsheilds and side glass with duty and carry ammo. Based on Dave Spauldings observations and what we saw:

Windsheild:

Shooting from inside to out: Rounds tend to deflect upward, how much depends on the round, proximity to glass, slope and distance to target. (I think also velocity plays a role, my 357Sig deflected quite a bit, 45ACP not so much)

Shooting from outside to inside: rounds tend to deflect downward, how much depends on.............and distance from shooter.

Bottom line rounds tend to defect the opposite of the slop of the glass. It's counter intuitive but that's what happened (and Dave S. told us before hand that's what we'd see).

Side windows, again round tend to deflect opposite of the slope, but not that big of a deal cause side window construction is different and normally not much of a slope. What was a big deal was the construction of the window. The newer "safety" glass act like a windshield, round punches through and window pretty much stays intact. Non-safety glass, the window shattered. Big concern was tinted windows, and we shot a truck that had these, round punches through, glass shatters BUT stays intact and you can't see chit inside or outside.

Big take aways: Use bonded bullets, keep muzzle as close to glass as possible (going inside to out), don't count on 1 round punching through and hitting target, pretty much plan on multiple shots and try to use initial hole.

Very, very, cool class, but unfortunately Dave S. is discontinuing due to lack of demand.

Chuck

 

[Ironicaintit]

I'm a lifelong gearhead, and I think, if in that unlikely situation, I'd put all my shots into the engine bay first. There's a lot of fairly delicate equipment sittin on top of that motor, and it wouldn't take very much to shut that puppy down pretty quick. (It depends on vehicle brand and type, but still)
The sheet metal surrounding it would be a lot easier to punch through than the glass would.... And if you did opt to nail the driver first, and you do get through to him, chances are his weight will bear on the throttle I think, and that wouldn't be good.

I have no idea what the classes would instruct....id attempt to disable the vehicle first.

 

[GEM]

Now someone needs to tell me why you would shoot into a car! Given the poor performance of small arms against automobiles, under what circumstances do you feel a private citizen should attempt to engage someone who was in an automobile?

This is an AAR from elsewhere on a class I took with Mr. Spaulding.

AAR - Vehicle Combatives, Spaulding
Just got done with this on the weekend. Description is here. It was hosted KRtraining in Texas.
http://www.handguncombatives.com/styled-10/index.html

The goal state is to give you an introduction and practice in fighting from and around vehicles. Starts with basic handgun drills that test and reinforce what you might have to do from or about a vehicle.

Spaulding is an excellent and humorous instructor. He runs a tight ship but is not a DI, get in your face person. The class time was informative but we spent most time in the TX sun.

He is aware of the mixed physical abilities of the class that ranged from the very young and spry to the older folks (whom he amusing called beefalos - crack me up - being one, now in my old age). However, we had to ditch cars, move, get up and do whatever. After basics, we shot from cars, around cars, over cars - with the disadvantages, risk and benefits of each pointed out. We skipped rounds under cars from various guns to show how rounds do not bounce at a sharp angle after a 45 degree hit but a much lesser angle. We engaged opponent targets from under cars with an attempt at cover and/or concealment.

Shooting from inside cars, through windshields, back windows and side windows was informative. We did it and in some runs had to debus the car with alacrity. Our stupid movements were gently pointed out. We also did it as a team with coordination of target acquisition with multiple targets.

Shooting - fun effects:

1. You can shoot effectively through windshields with technique. The first round may go off into the blue but the next go where aimed, if you used the resultant hole. The windshield doesn't shatter.

2. Side windows being tempered, should explode in your face and disappear into tiny bit. Yes, indeedy - except if they had those window tint plastics. We were surprised that they held together and sometimes took multiple rounds till they peeled off. Similarly you should shoot through glass if you could place your hits and hit targets in the seat quite well. I shot a 2nd Gen G19 - my carry with 9mm Winchester WWB or a few Hornady Critical Duty +P+. Either zipped right through the glass.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Windshields are among the hardest barriers for a bullet to penetrate. If you study the published FBI gel test results you quickly realize you can get right to the heart of a bullet by skipping to the auto glass part. If it does well there, it probably does pretty decent on the other tests. This is one area where I feel the 10mm Auto has an appreciable advantage over other automatic handgun service rounds. The ability to push a heavy-for-caliber 200 gr XTP at over 1200 fps gives it a decent amount of linear momentum.

 

[MachIVshooter]

We've shot up a fair number of late model cars. Two things that are true, though paradoxical:

1) Bullets have a really hard time getting through cars

2) Cars are pretty lowsy cover

How's that? There are just so many variables with materials, parts shape, thickness of barriers. Very unpredictable. A bullet that goes into the door may miss internal components, have to pass only through a thin layer of sheet metal and a composite interior panel, which will do little to slow or deflect it. If it hits the window regulator or motor? Handgun bullets will almost certainly be stopped, as well as some rifle bullets. Lots of other bits in there that can stop/slow/deflect a bullet, too.

Where front glass is concerned, the results are generally more predictable. Handgun or rifle, bullets hitting an angled windscreen tend to deflect downward significantly. With the amount of angle present on most newer automobiles and the visible portion of occupants, odds are that if you actually aim at the occupant, your bullet is going to go into the dash in front of them. Even with .308 Win, we found that bullets entering the middle of the windscreen would have a trajectory into the rear seats of a 1995 Honda Civic at about small of back height. This was shooting from 50 yards, nearly level initial trajectory.

Side glass tends to be pretty close to vertical, and we saw relatively little deflection most of the time.

Back glass is tempered and (usually) non-laminated. Delflection on angled back glass proved less predictable than a front windscreen.

The engine area of a car is obviously your best cover, but there are still plenty of relatively clear paths for the bullet, where it's mostly just hitting sheet metal and some plastic.

 

[Danoobie]

My takeaway is the car is a partially protective envelope, which there's no upside to allowing
a BG access to, if you can possibly drive away. The BG has intent to shoot, anyway,
why give away your last barrier to being completely exposed willingly.

OTOH, I see no reason to ever have to shoot into a car. I'm a licensed CCW holder, not
the A-Team.

 

[DesertVet]

My previous Agency trained on shooting through auto glass and the effects of our duty rounds on auto parts and automotive glass.
The bullets typically follow the angle of the glass. Accurate firing from inside a car can be achieved with a little training.
Many auto glass shops will let you have the chipped windshields if you ask ahead of time.
Build a stand to hold the windshield at the correct angle out of scrap wood and train yourself! Just wear a painting mask and wrap around eye Pro as tiny shards of glass will be created when you shoot through the windshield.
You might be surprised at how accurate you can fire from inside the windshield with just a little practice. It has practical application for the armed citizen to stop car jacking or armed robbery while driving or seated in a vehicle.

 

[threefeathers]

My experience is to shoot at the bottom of a windshield as possible and put multiple shots into a side window. 24 years as an often deployed 19D gave me a few vehicles to shoot at. My platoon got dang good at it.

 

[MistWolf]

..It's tempered not reinforced or laminated...

U.S. windscreens are laminated. At the minimum, they are two layers of glass with a plastic layer between. The plastic layer between is what keeps the glass shards from breaking apart and turning into shrapnel when the windscreen is broken, unlike the side glass.

 

[Elkins45]

Now someone needs to tell me why you would shoot into a car! Given the poor performance of small arms against automobiles, under what circumstances do you feel a private citizen should attempt to engage someone who was in an automobile?

If you find yourself having to shoot through a car then you are definitely on the far left end of the luck bell curve.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

@Odd Job and some others have it right on bullet deflection through windshields.

One of the best things I found online to illustrate what happens when shooting involves a vehicle is the Buick O' Truth:

https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-buick-o-truth-1-windshields-insideout/

https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-buick-o-truth-2-windshields-outsidein/


Bullets hitting glass at an angle do not behave the way you think they would, likely because glass is a brittle substance which crushes, unlike metals and other ductile and hardened materials. I haven't really found a site which explains WHY, but I have my own theory.

Bullets shot at a sheet of glass with the top angled away from you (like from outside to inside on a windshield) will deflect DOWN.

Bullets shot at a sheet of glass with the top angled towards you (like from inside to outside on a windshield) will deflect UP.

This is opposite of the way most people think would happen.

Why does this occur?

I suspect that it has to do with the point of impact on the bullet with the windshield and what happens as the glass is crushed and penetrated at an angle. (Meaning, not shot at perpendicular to the face of the glass.)

When shooting from outside to inside on a windshield, the angle at which the glass is thinnest is a downward angle. This represents the path of least resistance. So what happens, I suspect, is this:

The lower edge of the bullet's leading end impacts the glass first. This impact sends a shockwave through the glass at the instant of impact, which fractures and crushes the glass. The impact, being at the bottom edge of the bullet on the glass, produces a kind of "shaped shockwave" through the glass, which is angled downward. Thus the glass fractures and crushes at an angle through the glass that is along the path of least thickness: perpendicular to the surface of the glass.

The bullet WANTS to continue along on a straight path. This is basic physics. The fact that the bullet moves down in this scenario implies an outside force acting upon the bullet to produce that effect. When the bullet approaches the glass at an angle, the glass in the direct path of flight is thicker than it would be if the bullet were approaching at a 90 degree angle to the surface of the windshield. This represents a harder path to follow, especially since the shockwave of impact has fractured and crushed a much weaker path through the glass which is angled downward. So the bullet is deflected/pushed DOWN to follow a path of lower resistance.

When shooting from inside to outside, the opposite happens.

It would be really cool if I could find some close-up, slow motion video to see what actually happens and how closely my theory matches the evidence.


THAT SAID:

Shooting into ANYTHING, much less a vehicle, affects the flight ballistics and the terminal ballistics of the bullets. These effects may be generalized, but they cannot be predicted with accuracy individually.

Why? Because different structures made of different materials of varying thicknesses, densities, hardness, and other physical properties each produce their own specific effects on the bullets...and these vary depending on point of impact and the dynamic forces that are involved with each separate encounter from one material to another.

Shoot 5 bullets through a car door. One may simply pass through the outer and inner panels. The next might pass through the outer panel, impact on the glass window within the door (which produces a different effect on flight ballistics then for ductile metals), then the inner panel. The third might pass through the outer panel, hit the electric motor on the window regulator and never make it to the inner panel. The fourth might pass through the outer panel and pass through a void in the inner panel encountering only the cardboard/cloth cover on the inside of the door. The fifth might never make it through the outer panel at all.

And ALL of these bullets will suffer deformation of SOME kind as well as velocity changes...which will affect terminal ballistics if they DO hit the intended target within the vehicle. And they will be just as unpredictable, as well.

 

[JTHunter]

There is a show on cable called "The Best Defense" and, on a recent show, they were talking about this subject. They had a very descriptive demonstration about what happens with the laminated windshields and it is like the optical illusion when we look into clear water.
When shooting from inside the vehicle, bullets will angle upwards, while, from outside, they angle downwards. The slope of the windshield also affects those angles and, the less vertical the glass is, the greater the angular deviation.

 

[fastbolt]

There is a show on cable called "The Best Defense" and, on a recent show, they were talking about this subject. They had a very descriptive demonstration about what happens with the laminated windshields and it is like the optical illusion when we look into clear water.
When shooting from inside the vehicle, bullets will angle upwards, while, from outside, they angle downwards. The slope of the windshield also affects those angles and, the less vertical the glass is, the greater the angular deviation.

Don't forget that unless you're setting up a carefully constructed test, where the test shots are fired directly into the glass medium, the "offset" angle of the incoming round is probably going to introduce yet another variable in potential deflection of the bullet and its path after defeating the glass barrier.

Then, there's the curves incorporated in the designs of most windshields and rear windows.

"Unpredictable" is probably a charitable way to describe the potential.

 

[RPZ]

Not to mention if they are just shooting thru the door panel.

Side glass especially, and doors, are superficial barriers to 9mm and up.

Some of the bent/welded sheet metal and fittings for the glass, winders, door opener etc will increase resistance but being saved by this stuff is pure luck.

Deflection on windshields can vary greatly according to the glass itself and the angle struck, and bullet construction and velocity. There is no formula here.

A car or other vehicle can offer some protection in some circumstances, but they can also be a death trap.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/police-officer-opens-fire-through-windshield/ar-AAAdKp4



Pretty interesting...

 

[Hunter86004]

Looks like he could use a little more practice doing mag changes.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/police-officer-opens-fire-through-windshield/ar-AAAdKp4

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Looks like he could use a little more practice doing mag changes.

You really have to wonder where his shots went, too. When you shoot a group that measures 6" in size, single hand rapid fire, at another vehicle during a fairly high speed chase, plus given the potential for bullet deflection, you have to wonder where all those rounds went and that a lot of them likely came nowhere near the intended target. A 6" group at less than 1' is not a good group size! His grouping tightened up when he went to a two-handed grip and undoubtedly shot several rounds through an open hole.

The mag change was scary bad.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/07/1...as-police-pursuit-shootout-with-suspects.html

 

[H&R Glock]

I'll bet when asked why he shot through the windshield he replied "What?"