Shooting while sitting at a table.

[1-1 Banger]

How would some of you pistoleros go about drawing your and firing your handgun while seated at a table? I was taught one technique where you push your chair back while pushing the table into the guy, then coming up and firing, driving your arm across the table to the point that it's almost a contact shot. What if the guy is standing and you're sitting? I'm going to assume that the Han Solo style "draw and fire through the table" is pretty much a frowned upon practice, is it not?

 

[Kleanbore]

You are unlikely to your target if you try to fire through the table.

Trying to effect "almost a contact shot" is a good way to have your gun grabbed.

Whether you push your chair back will depend upon whether you have to. I should think it would give away your intention to draw.

 

[Mainsail]

Man, is there anything a gun owner won't worry about?

 

[David E]

A guy thought about this enough to come up with a technique (flawed, at that-what if you're at a booth with a bolted down table?) and you actually practiced this?

Unless you're an undercover cop, it's not very likely. Even then, it's not very likely.

What is more likely is someone comes into a restaurant and starts shooting the patrons. (Luby's, etc)

Drawing and shooting effectively while seated at a table or booth is worth knowing, but don't over emphasize it. If your technique is sound, it won't matter if you're standing or seated.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Drawing and shooting effectively while seated at a table or booth is worth knowing, but don't over emphasize it.

We did work on this in Intermediate Handgun (350) at Gunsite. The technique is to draw under the table and then bring the gun up -- efficiently, quickly and without sweeping anything inappropriate.

 

[CA Raider]

1-1 banger .... Been losing at poker lately? HaHa!
That's why those old gents carried derringers in their boots.

CA R

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm going to assume that the Han Solo style "draw and fire through the table" is pretty much a frowned upon practice, is it not?

...except that isn't what happened in the movie either. He shot him under the table.

I was taught one technique where you push your chair back while pushing the table into the guy, then coming up and firing, driving your arm across the table to the point that it's almost a contact shot.

Please don't tell me that folks actually paid to have someone teach them that.

Of course a technique that broadcast intent so clearly wouldn't have a lot of unsatisfied customers complaining...you have to survive to complain. If that wasn't enough, extending the gun while still in place should give him enough time to mount a successful defense.

If we are talking about "across poker table" distances...as opposed to engaging targets as you are seated (like in the picture Frank posted in #5)...I think it more likely that you'd be firing from some sort of retention position; likely under or just above the table

 

[massad ayoob]

It's a common scenario at IDPA matches. If you're not seated so tight in that you're using the table for a bib, draw to "rock and lock" about pectoralis-high and you should clear the table. With a high riding holster (or a female shooter with higher hips) it might be helpful to rock the shoulders slightly away from the holster side (i.e., to the left for a right-handed shooter) to allow more range of movement. In an actual situation, however, this would be a "flag" movement that might draw the bad guys' attention to you prematurely.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...If you're not seated so tight in that you're using the table for a bib, draw to "rock and lock" about pectoralis-high and you should clear the table...

Mas described it much better than I did.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

There's not much to add to Mr. Ayoobs post other than to say there really isn't any special technique to shooting while sitting. People should practice shooting from the step in your draw sequence that points the muzzle down range as this is an emergency firing position. The same draw steps standing or sitting will accomplish the necessary goal.

 

[Jim K]

I wonder if it is possible to catalog and practice every conceivable body position, gun position and type of firearm that might be involved in any possible defense situation.

Maybe it is, but in quite a few years of carrying a gun, I didn't even try to figure out all of them, figuring that good, solid training and skill would handle most of them. That kind of ""what if" thing seems to me more like the worries of a hobbyist range gunner than about a serious person dealing with real world situations.

Jim

 

[Mastrogiacomo]

I would worrying about pushing the chair back and falling over with it... maybe it's just me but I see myself messing even that up. I think the dramatics should be left for movies.

Laura

 

[ahtoxa]

A guy thought about this enough to come up with a technique (flawed, at that) and you actually practiced this?

Unless you're an undercover cop, it's not very likely.

What is more likely us someone comes into a restaurant and starts shooting the patrons. (Luby's, etc)

Drawing and shooting effectively while seated at a table or booth is worth knowing, but don't over emphasize it.

Nothing to add aside from the fact that I highly support your sig. Bothers me to no end.

 

[AABEN]

Hell jest shoot him in the balls. Why worry about getting the gun above the table.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Hell jest shoot him in the balls. Why worry about getting the gun above the table.

Because it is a mite challenging to hit what you can't see?

 

[9mmepiphany]

That kind of ""what if" thing seems to me more like the worries of a hobbyist range gunner than about a serious person dealing with real world situations.

...and yet, that is the kind of stuff that is taught and encouraged at Officer/Street Survival training

 

[1-1 Banger]

Oh man, embarrassing to admit it but the apparently no good technique of pushing the table was taught to us as part of our pre deployment training to counter insider threats. Hahaha, why am I not surprised that the freakin Army taught me this now? Also, I forget who it was, but whoever just bested me at Star Wars facts, you rock haha.

 

[David E]

I didn't say pushing the table into the bad guy was a bad technique, I said it is a flawed one. Such as if you're seated in a booth and the the table is bolted down. Now what?

 

[bigfatdave]

What if the "bad guy" is seated next to you?

What if ... ... (endless tiny variations)

Mr Ayoob (as usual) is spot-on.
I'm hesitant to add to his comments, he's more of an expert than I am now - or will ever likely be.

But ... the thought occurs ...
... If you're doing something like Mr Ayoob describes, or any other close-range defensive shooting, make your actions decisive and take no half-measures. Immediate overwhelming violence might get you out of such a situation, anything short of that opens up a wide world of unpleasant possibilities.
You get one chance at the element of surprise, most times.

 

[scaatylobo]

a bit OT

But in the same vein,have you thought about drawing while in your vehicle [ car jackings do happen ] and if not what happens to the seat belt ?.

I learned to practice while an LEO and in a car a GREAT deal of the time and approached by suspicious partys.

I taught it to those that cared to learn [ very few ] ,and we did it with wheel guns as that is what we started with.

try it while laying across the console [ puter screen ] and with the off hand [ almost impossible ].

I agree that trying the drill at a range that is set up with a table is a GREAT idea.

But I see most shooters NEVER shooting from their holster,so they have a HUGE learning curve.

 

[Sam1911]

Not much to say here except to sound a note of caution. We Disqualify people from almost every major IDPA match (and lots of minor ones) where we do seated draws, because as much as we harp on the safety aspect, folks do not pay attention to their legs when they draw. Sit spread-legged and draw from a strong-side holster and you will almost invariably sweep right over your thigh. (Which is where your femoral artery happens to hang out most of the time.)

Like retention-position shooting and some other 'advanced' drills, PLEASE stop and make yourself understand all the possible safety issues before you jump in and start running live-fire exercises. If not...hope you've got your C-A-T with you.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Sit spread-legged and draw from a strong-side holster and you will almost invariably sweep right over your thigh. (Which is where your femoral artery happens to hang out most of the time.)

We had this happen at the last State Match...you'd think shooters who attend a State level match would have at least practiced this...but it was just 1 DQ out of 170 shooters.

It is a skill that needs to be practiced, but before you even start, you need to understand the mechanics and where the muzzle will be sweeping. You usually have a choice of altering where you place your leg or the arc described by the muzzle

 

[Mainsail]

It is a skill that needs to be practiced...

Practiced by whom? I can see it being necessary for police detectives or similar, but for regular citizens?

Given the chances of a regular citizen ever needing to use a handgun in self defense outside the home is pretty low, the chances of needing it while sitting is so slight I question whether it's worth the time displaced training for it.

In other words, wouldn't it be a far better use of limited resources (time and ammo) for almost all of us in here to focus on the basics?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Practiced by whom? I can see it being necessary for police detectives or similar, but for regular citizens?

The obvious answer, would be anyone who sits down at a table But, the quoted post was in response to a safety concern directly applicable to shooting in competition.

On a more serious note, I can't think of any time this would be a tactic used by police detectives that wouldn't also apply to non-LE. It isn't like they sit at a table across from BGs when both are armed.

In other words, wouldn't it be a far better use of limited resources (time and ammo) for almost all of us in here to focus on the basics?

Of course, you have to manage your practice time and this certainly isn't a "basic" skill, but more an Intermediate one. But it is one that would logically follow the ability to draw, reload, turning while drawing, transition between targets, and shoot on the move.

It isn't like a completely new technique, it is just drawing your gun while seated...you should be aware of the same safety concerns. Drawing and turning is much more problematic

 

[Kleanbore]

One may be faced with the need to defend oneself while walking, standing, or while sitting at a table, in a fair or sofa, or in a car, and one should be able to draw and fire quickly, safely and effectively from any position and while moving in any direction.

The basic skills are essentially the same.