situation: you were forced to shoot someone

[mole]

Here's the situation:

You go to your favorite Mexican resturant to eat. While eating some thug comes in and pulls a gun on the guy at the register. You slip your pistol out, click off the safety, and keep it hidden under the table hoping that he'll just take the money and leave. He shoots the cashier and then turns to point the gun at the next closest person. You fire two shots into the thugs chest.

But alas, you stuck the wrong magazine into your glocretta sig1911 this morning and instead of your normal gold-hyrda-dot-shocks you send him two Winchester white box fmj. He drops the gun and falls to the floor, but he's not dead or knocked out. What do you do?

Do you continue to hold the gun on him until the cops arrive? If I were a cop and I come running in and I see one man pointing a gun at another injured man I would immediately assume that the guy with the gun is the bad guy/threat. If the thug has another gun hidden and pulls it, you are in the best position to neutralize him.

Do you place the gun on your table and wait while keeping everyone away from your gun? This way the cops will see where the two guns are soon after entry. This may make the police more likely to confiscate your gun.?.?. You might lose your gun for several months or forever.

Do you re-holster? It keeps the gun quickly available while not appearing to be an immediate threat to the answering police. This seems like the safest bet to me.

What if there is a "but he's just a misguided boy who society has ignored and it's not his fault that he doesn't get the love he deserves" type person that wants to give aid to the thug present? Do you keep them from giving aid because he might have a weapon and take them as hostage/shield/kill them? Do you not interfere because you think that they are a reasonable adult and can make their own decisions, and if they get stabbed by a person they know is a murder it's their own darn fault? Do you give aid yourself after checking them for weapons because no matter how easy it is to take life it is still something scared and can never be returned?

Does anyone know of laws where you are required to give aid? Personally, if I just saw him murder/attempt to murder someone in cold blood I'd let him bleed out and consider it justice.

Opinions?

 

[SemiAutoMan]

I would have head shot him in the first place then holster and wait for the cops with the witnesses it would be a self defense plea.

however with the situation you describe having already happened I would hold the gun on the suspect get his gun holster my gun and tie him up with any electrical cord i could find and then call the cops myself and tell them i had him held at gunpoint before they get there and shoot me

 

[gp911]

Magazine? My SP101 doesn't have one of those... Still, he could definitely get up from two shots given the proper circumstances.

Assuming when he fell his gun went whizzing across the floor and he doesn't have it anymore I'd just keep my gun pointed at him and tell somebody nearby the following:

"You! Stand by the door and make sure the cops don't shoot me when they come in to investigate! I'm keeping him covered in case he has more guns!"

If he falls but the gun is still in his hand he gets one more to the upper torso/head area to neutralize the threat. He already killed one person after getting the money so I'm assuming he feels like killing more.


gp911

 

[Preacherman]

1. Immediately ensure that his gun is secured. This can be done by either retrieving it yourself, or getting someone else to do so. My personal preference would be to do it myself, since I don't know who else I can trust in the restaurant. ("Securing" doesn't necessarily mean "picking up" the gun - I can move it away from him with my foot, and stand on it with one foot while waiting for the cops. That way, I can keep my eyes [and sight picture] on the bad guy.)

2. Ask the proprietor to call 911, and tell him what you want him to say. Something like "Robbery in progress at (business name and address) - shots fired - one suspect down - please send ambulance and police." If he's panicked and can't talk clearly to the cops, call them yourself (you do have your cellphone with you, don't you? If you carry a gun, your cellphone should be on you whenever and wherever you carry!)

3. Ask the other patrons to move away from the downed bad guy. If there is qualified medical assistance available (e.g. a nurse, doctor, etc.), ask them for their opinion as to whether first aid is immediately necessary: but be aware that the bad guy might grab him/her as a hostage, and might have another weapon available (e.g. a knife, or a backup gun). If there's any doubt, order anyone approaching him to step back, and make sure that he's left alone until responding authorities arrive.

4. Watch out for others who are on his side. There might be another bad guy in the restaurant, or just outside, or driving a getaway vehicle. If you focus in on your target, his buddies can shoot you very easily from the side or behind. It's worth scanning the area frequently, and making yourself as small a target as possible (e.g. avoiding windows, crouching down at table-top level so that it's hard to get a clear line of fire at you, etc.). It might be good to ask the other patrons to do the same.

5. If there's someone level-headed on the scene, ask him/her to stand at the door (not outside, for fear of accomplices out there), and warn you when the police are approaching. As soon as you hear the sirens, or get the warning, put your gun on a table-top or chair in front of you, where you can still get to it quickly, and step back a little from it. Keep your hands in plain sight. That way, when the cops come in, you're not likely to be shot by mistake. If the bad guy tries something during that brief window of opportunity, you'll still be close enough to the gun to get to it. You could also re-holster the gun, but this will make cops nervous: they know there's been a shooting, but they can't easily identify the shooter (good guy or not). Cops don't like this sort of uncertainty.

6. When the cops are on the scene, they'll be taking statements from everyone they can get their hands on. It will help you if you've given clear, loud verbal commands during the situation, informed everyone of what you want them to do (and why), and exercised calm control - witnesses tend to remember such things. When the cops ask you what happened, your answer is simple: "I was in fear of my life from this criminal's dangerous conduct. I shot to defend myself. Any further information you require will be provided, but you'll understand that in a serious situation such as this, I would prefer to consult with my lawyer first." If they continue to press you for a statement, just get blunt about your lawyer.


Hope this helps.

 

[Ovid]

Another thing to think about is that the stick-up man, may very well have an accomplice, or look-out, ect, who might appear to be a regular customer.

 

[Nightdiver]

Good response, gp911.
If the BG still has posession of his weapon, he is still a threat.

As to the question of rendering aid. As a rule of thumb, you are never required to render assistance if you believe it will place you in danger.

Also consider always checking your ammo when loading. Firing FMJ in a defensive situation increases the possibility of pass through or ricochet, thereby injuring a third party, which, here in Texas, will make you civilly and criminally liable.

 

[V4Vendetta]

This is why I don't eat Mexican food.

 

[Jeff White]

THERE ARE NO MAGIC BULLETS!

The entire premise of your post is flawed. The BG could just as easily be on the floor alive if you loaded your weapon with glod dot, hydrashock, or the best that Blammo Ammo Company pushes in those cheesy ads.

Do you continue to hold the gun on him until the cops arrive?

Yes, make sure you call 911 on your cell and tell the telecommunicator that you are the good guy, you are holding the subject at gunpoint and give them a good description of yourself.

If I were a cop and I come running in and I see one man pointing a gun at another injured man I would immediately assume that the guy with the gun is the bad guy/threat.

Yep, even after you told 911 everything that happened and gave them a good description of yourself, expect to be proned out on the floor at gunpoint, disarmed and handcuffed. Obey every command the responding officers give you. Don't open your mouth and say, "that's the bad guy, why are you doing this to me." Things will get sorted out after the scene is secure.

Do you place the gun on your table and wait while keeping everyone away from your gun?

No, don't give up control of it to anyone but the police.

This may make the police more likely to confiscate your gun.?.?. You might lose your gun for several months or forever.

They probably are going to confiscate your weapon. Expect that. If you aren't prepared to surrender it as part of the investigation, don't carry one. It's that simple.

What if there is a "but he's just a misguided boy who society has ignored and it's not his fault that he doesn't get the love he deserves" type person that wants to give aid to the thug present? Do you keep them from giving aid because he might have a weapon and take them as hostage/shield/kill them?

No, you're not a peace officer and you aren't responsible for protecting everyone there. Your CCW permit is not a peace officer's commission. It's not your place to worry about making decisions like that. If someone wants to give the person aid, let them. Most probably they won't want to interfere if you are holding the subject at gunpoint.

Jeff

 

[springmom]

do those come with hi-cap mags?

First, I want one of those glocketta sig1911's, but I want the special limited edition XD version.

Seriously, everything Preacherman said, with one addendum: have the person who calls 911 describe YOU so that the police know that, (in my case) "a 51-year old matronly woman with a .38 special shot the robber and is continuing to cover him until you (the police) arrive. She's wearing a white knit sweater and blue jeans, has red hair turning gray, and wears glasses. Don't shoot her,she's the good guy." Or some such. That way, they know who they players are because they have a scorecard, as it were.

Springmom who wishes she didn't just type "matronly" to describe herself except that it's accurate....

 

[gt3944]

What if theres two thugs, then what???

 

[71Commander]

What if theres two thugs, then what???

My wife is always packing. She has my back.

 

[steveracer]

You should throw down your gun and run away.

Right, sorry, wrong advice.
Everyone around you has a phone, probably. Get one. You have a gun, they will just hand it over. (I hate friggin cell phones, luckily the people around me have the damned things all the time.)
Call 911. Tell them WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE, AND YOU ARE ARMED! Tell them what to expect to see when they enter. Give them your full name, and hope the bad guy bleeds out before he gets to the hospital. If he lives, his side will be presented in court, and he will lie, and some juror will believe him.

 

[birddog]

I'd holster it after the BG's own gun was moved securely out of reach and I was reasonably sure there are no accomplices. I would NOT want my Ruger in my hand when the police arrived. No sir.

 

[Sheldon J]

He would not have survived

a very large part of my drill is to attach the (M6X) laser for extreme accuracy under stress, then tripple tap two low one high, so even with FMJ's even though I only use wolf's in that and SWC's home brew for target at the back yard range, and I always keep the 10 round practice mags seperate from the 12 round carry mags, so it is very unlikely that this never could have happened...becuse mexican gives me indegistion heck with my acid r even piza gives me fits.

 

[mole]

steveracer I hate cellphones too. I have one locked in my car for road emergencies though ($5 bucks a month). Like you I would have counted on just about everyone else in the place to dial 911 on their cell phones. I also would have requested for the manager to call.

gt3944 "What if theres two thugs, then what???" I didn't think about that. I guess I'd be SOL

springmom They come with two 23 round mags and four 10-round clips

Jeff White You have some very good points.

"The entire premise of your post is flawed. The BG could just as easily be on the floor alive if you loaded your weapon with glod dot, hydrashock, or the best that Blammo Ammo Company pushes in those cheesy ads. "

I know this. I was trying to word it so that 13 different people wouldn't respond with "you should have used ______ gun in ______ caliber with _______ bullets."

"They probably are going to confiscate your weapon. "

I accept this. That's why I said "more likely."

Preacherman, gp911 Nice respones. My actions would be somewhat different, but follow your basic ideas.

I'd have his gun at my feet. (standing on it with one foot as you suggested is a great idea I think.) I would have reholstered. (I don't want a trigger-happy/nervous cop shooting me by mistake.) I'd have the manager call the police and have someone stand outside the door to inform the police of the situation before they enter. I would try to get people to stay several feet away from him so he couldn't grab someone. I wouldn't give aid, but I wouldn't prevent someone from giving aid. If they saw what he did and they get knifed, I'd consider it their own fault for not being cautious. I wouldn't have thought to look for a second thug, so I guess I'll have to keep that in mind.

Nice ideas guys,
mole

 

[Jeff White]

SheldonJ said;

a very large part of my drill is to attach the (M6X) laser for extreme accuracy under stress,

You are kidding about this, right? If not have you thought out the possibility of shooting yourself in the hand putting the M6 on a loaded weapon? What are you going to do with the weapon once the light/laser is attached and it's time to reholster, tie up both hands to take it off again?

I think that if you're going to carry a light or laser to mount on your firearm, you should carry the weapon with the light or laser mounted. That way you don't fumble around with a loaded weapon under stress and you can holster the weapon after the action without worrying about fumbling with it again.

Jeff

 

[Coop de Ville]

If there is a second gunman, odds are he will flee to avoid being identified/ captured. He will not engage in a stand-off. That has been my experience... YMMV.

Best, -Coop

And drop the gun quickly after the popo tell ya to...

Compliance is bliss

 

[Double Naught Spy]

steveracer I hate cellphones too. I have one locked in my car for road emergencies though ($5 bucks a month). Like you I would have counted on just about everyone else in the place to dial 911 on their cell phones. I also would have requested for the manager to call.

Whether you hate cell phones or not, it is stupid to rely on other people to do what is right when you don't know them.

gt3944 "What if theres two thugs, then what???" I didn't think about that. I guess I'd be SOL

You certainly could be. According to Dallas Police training, in about 60% of the cases, the bad guy has one or more accomplices that may perform in any of a variety of roles ranging from being a lookout, being the getaway driver, being the sleeper bad guy in the establishment who will only reveal his evil intentions if his robber partner gets into trouble, etc.

I'd have his gun at my feet. (standing on it with one foot as you suggested is a great idea I think.) I would have reholstered. (I don't want a trigger-happy/nervous cop shooting me by mistake.) I'd have the manager call the police and have someone stand outside the door to inform the police of the situation before they enter. I would try to get people to stay several feet away from him so he couldn't grab someone. I wouldn't give aid, but I wouldn't prevent someone from giving aid. If they saw what he did and they get knifed, I'd consider it their own fault for not being cautious. I wouldn't have thought to look for a second thug, so I guess I'll have to keep that in mind.

So you shoot, he falls and drops his gun and you walk over and stand on the gun and then reholster your own? What? Okay, the guy is injured and conscious and so you are going to go over and stand by him and holster your gun? However, you would warn others to stay away so he would not grab them. What will keep him from grabbing you? Your gun is holstered. The closer you are to the threat (and he is still a threat, but maybe not a lethal threat, but maybe he is), the greater the chance that the bad guy will be able to harm you.

The notion that you have been in a shooting and have the bad guy on the ground but then think you should reholster your gun because of concerns an officer may come in and shoot you just does not jive. Why are you more afraid of the cops than the bad guys?

If you are going to holster your gun, then you need to move to a location of safety, ideally behind ballistic cover and with an option to escape.

--------------------

If there is a second gunman, odds are he will flee to avoid being identified/ captured. He will not engage in a stand-off. That has been my experience... YMMV.

Classic. If you want to play the odds game, then odds are Mole will never fire his gun in self defense and even less chance during a robbery where he is eating.

When it comes to the odds of predicting behavior in life or death situations, odds don't mean a thing until the danger event happens to you and then they are 100% for you and that is very bad.

It is either on Discover or TLC where they have some programs that deal with violent crimes. The shows are composed of a lot of store video camera footage. I seem to recall at least three incidents shown where the second gunman shoots the clerk after the clerk shot or beaned the first suspect with a club. In one case, the robbers left and then the healthy one returned a few seconds later and shot the clerk.

 

[cracked butt]

SheldonJ said;

Quote:
a very large part of my drill is to attach the (M6X) laser for extreme accuracy under stress,


You are kidding about this, right?

Though out of place, I can see the mall ninja-esque triple-tapping-wolfammo-10rd/12rdmags humor about his post, and the neener at the end sort of cements it.

 

[jeepmor]

Is this keyboard commado'd to death or what?

I'd shoot the guy immediately if the opportunity arose, him brandishing a weapon in any fashion can be construed as a life threatening situation. It might even save a life. Would I be shaking in my boots, you bet, but taking action while being scared is what courage is all about.

My weapon would not have ball ammo in it, period. That's part of the ritual of getting up in the morning and holstering a weapon. A check is always done, if you're not doing it, you're not taking your responsibility as an armed citizen seriously enough in my opinion. It's a gun, not your car keys! A gun is always loaded, I put it down, pick it up again, I check again....nothing else is optional. I'm rather anal about this particular point, even when I KNOW it's empty.

Perp is still 'alive'. Boy I hope not, when they live it's much more likely that they will win a court battle than me, even though I'm the good guy. Funny how our justice system really sucks like that, especially if it happened in California.

Maybe you get lucky and he falls with the weapon still in hand and you're given the opportunity for a headshot while he's injured.

Again, easy as heck to say what I'd do, hard as heck to say if I could actually do it. It happened in a Mad Ronny's in NM several years back. A gun wielding perp brandished a weapon and started waving it around. A ccw fella pulled his weapon and neutralized the threat, permanently. Got off on self defense.

When the cops arrive, tell them as little as possible, save the talking for the lawyers, cops are oh so good at painting the picture however they want in my experience. (none of them involving violence or firearms mind you) Witnesses will be key to your future lack of incarceration.

jeepmor

 

[Tequila_Sauer]

I must admit, I am just as afraid of being incarcerated because I shot a BG as I am of the BG himself.

Though it's likely you'll never have the time to really aim effectively in a situation like that, I hope that, if something like this were to happen to me, I'd have the forethought to aim a tad high on COM so as to hit something vital and get off a few good rounds.

 

[Terrierman]

You should throw down your gun and run away

I am laughing so hard right now that the tears are running down my cheeks. Now THATS funny!

 

[Krenn]

my inexperienced reccomendation:

keep the gun pointed at him while you secure the immediate area. (check for accomplices, warn patrons to stay back, get his gun clear of him)

then, get into the best position possible. prefferably, you will be clearly visible from the door, you will be able to see both the door and the gunmen you dropped, and you will be far enough enough away from the downed gunman that he can't snatch your ankle or pull some other stunt.

THEN, lower your sidearm so it is pointed safely at the floor, and visible to all parties, but instantly ready if you need it.

THEN, call the police, or prefferably, have someone you can trust to speak clearly do it for you.

 

[Bill2k1]

Simple,

after shooting...

reload
secure their weapon
contact police
secure scene (search subject)
provide first aid

 

[HiVelocity]

Folks,

There are a thousand answers to this scenario. Each one of us would react differently.

1. How many "other" legal CWP carriers are in the restaurant that would react in concert?

2. Where are they situated in the shooting? How many actually shot?

I think we all have a right to protect ourselves, our families, and others in a situation such as this. No one will protect you better than you.........period.

I offer this, recently a test of all the major "high performance" hollow point bullets were tested on test media covered with 4 layers of denim. Only two bullets performed as they should have (11"-14" wound channel) after penetrating through the denim. Only two.......Cor-Bon's PowRBall and DPX loads. The denim caused all the others to clog the hollow point cavity which made the projectile basically a FMJ. They too penetrated, only two fully expanded as advertised.

And, anyone who takes carrying a handgun seriously; 1-knows how to use their particular weapon and 2-knows what ammo is in it at each instance it is carried. And 3- continues to train, train, train with it.

Thanks,

JK in SC