Shot groupings at 15+ yards

[flatlander937]

While I'm still very new to shooting in general(450 rounds through my 1991... and probably another 600ish through various other friends' guns and range rentals)... I can't see how anybody can even possibly be group shots at distances like 25 yards.

I can keep roughly a 6" group at 10 yards if I really concentrate and take my time and have a bit of luck.

I've attempted to shoot as far as 15 yards... and it gets really pathetic around there. I have also not seen many other people even attempting to shoot at targets beyond that distance... most seem to be between 5 and 10 yards.

I'm only 23... but my vision is 20/20 with my contacts in and I really just can't see that far out clearly. And if I could, the white dot of my front sight covers half of the whole target. I changed out the rear sight for a black serrated rear sight from 10-8 Performance because I had problems focusing on the front dot with the 3-dot setup. My groups haven't gotten any better, but they haven't gotten worse... main benefit is my vision doesn't wander from front to back sights over and over for quicker sight acquisition.

Note: All shooting is done standing up, either with one or both hands. One thing that is nice is even though it feels awkward as heck, I am surprisingly accurate shooting left-handed(I'm right-handed). It just takes a second or two longer to verify a good grip before I feel confident pulling the trigger in general.


So when you guys are talking about shooting stuff at 20-25 yards... Is this something that took you thousands and thousands of rounds to get tight/acceptable groups? Or are these groupings being done with a rest of some kind?


Any tips on shooting exercises to work on at home or at the range?

My personal next step will be to buy a .22 so I can afford to shoot about 7x more each time I go out

 

[Rail Driver]

Dry fire a lot. I mean a LOT. I find that dry firing helps me a lot with proper trigger pull and control. Get someone more experienced to work with you on your grip and stance as well. In order to shoot well, you need to start where every good shooter started: With the fundamentals. (obviously safety comes first, but you know what I mean)

 

[[email protected]]

This will give you a idea of what you can do at 50 yds. Wish I had her 100yd
target to show you. It's about a 15 inch group for 10 shots. This was done
by my wife in competition . Your only allowed to use one hand standing. The
"10" ring is just a little over 3 inches in dia, so you can see about what the
group is. This is to encourage you, and you will get better. Just keep at it.

 

[MrBorland]

So when you guys are talking about shooting stuff at 20-25 yards... Is this something that took you thousands and thousands of rounds to get tight/acceptable groups? Or are these groupings being done with a rest of some kind?

Good shooters can shoot 3" or better groups @ 25 yards while shooting unsupported. Top bullseye shooters can do quite a bit better than this. No, shooting well's not quite as easy as it appears on the big screen, but it' something that's attainable with practice.

I never shoot from a rest. I don't know how many rounds it took, but it certainly didn't come instantly. OTOH, I was fortunate that I somehow intuitively understood (or accepted) from the beginning that it's all (and only) about the 2 fundamentals - sight picture & trigger control - so accuracy's never really been a problem for me. Make it a commitment to apply the fundamentals better every time you shoot and you'll make good progress. A .22LR pistol would be an excellent investment.

One tip about the fundamentals: Forget about the target. It may be the goal, but it's not the process. It's merely a recording device that records how well you're applying the fundamentals. If your groups are big, don't try for a small group - try for better application of the fundamentals. The target will take care of itself.

 

[SharkHat]

Have you ruled out eye dominance issues? Your comment about left handed accuracy may hint at this.

The key to shooting consistent groups is consistency in your actions. Sight picture, breath control, trigger squeeze, etc. These are all learnable with practice, but fighting eye dominance can cause that learning curve to become much steeper.

 

[rcmodel]

So when you guys are talking about shooting stuff at 20-25 yards... Is this something that took you thousands and thousands of rounds

I honestly can't remember.

I started with a BB gun in 1950 when I was 6.
A .22 rifle when I was 9.

I do remember shooting an old washing machine tub in a ditch on our farm with a Ruger .357 revolver at around 150 yards all the time when I was 16.
It was unusual to miss it.

Running coyotes at 75 yards were in serious trouble.
As were running rabbits at 20 - 30 with a .22 auto.

By the time I was 25, I was shooting pistol competition with an Army AMU team.
Timed and rapid fire at 25 yards, slow fire at 50 yards, with .22, center-fire, and .45.
And you better keep all your shots in the 10 & X ring on that target in post #3, or pack up and go home.

I won a lot of beer money in my off time with a 2" snub-nose .38 Spl, or .45 auto shooting .50 cal ammo cans at 100 yards.

The whole handgun accuracy thing is "Front sight, Breathing, Squeeze".

You are going to wobble and shake.
Just keep adding pressure to the trigger each and every time the front sight is going by the center of the target.
Then repeat as necessary until the gun goes off unexpectedly.
It will go off with the front sight on the target.


Don't try to focus on the rear sight, or the target, or try to switch focus back & forth between the front, rear, and target.
You can't..

Both the rear sight and the target can be / will be blury, and your eye will take care of finding the center of things by itself if you only focus on the front sight.

If you developed a flinch or jerk early starting with a .45 ACP Commander, it will never get better until you go back to a .22 or dry-firing and practice through it.

rc

 

[Steve C]

Shooting is a learned skill like any other sport. Nobody would expect to be able to play golf, bowing, tennis, basketball, etc well without first gaining some instruction and working to develop some skill. Everyone thinks that shooting is easy because it looks that way on TV but so does any other sport that you have never played. You always gain a lot better appreciation of the skill involved after you try it yourself.

If you are lucky you have a mentor who explained the basic principles and helped you develop at least rudimentary skill. If you enlist in the military they will train you in basic skills of marksmanship for a rifle at least but the principles are still the same for handgun.

Improvement takes good practice to overcome the errors that makes one miss. If you don't know why you are missing then practice using poor technique will do nothing to make you a better shot.

You can self teach by reading or watching instructional videos. Search Google, the public library. Go to http://www.bullseyepistol.com and read the Army Pistol Marksmanship Manual and other lessons. The rest is learning by doing. Quickest way to learn is to take lessons from a good instructor.

 

[9mmepiphany]

It is hard to give specific shooting advice without having seen you shoot. General observations of beginning shooters or shooters that have a hard time holding a reasonable group at 10 yards...which really should be < 3"...are:

1. You're tightening your grip as you press the trigger
2. You're compromising your grip pressure by leaving space open on the grip frame
3. You're snapping the trigger back when you see the sights perfectly aligned on the target
4. You're not pressing the trigger straight to the rear
5. You're anticipating the flash and recoil

The best thing to do is to get some professional shooting instruction to learn the correct techniques

 

[chicharrones]

My personal next step will be to buy a .22 so I can afford to shoot about 7x more each time I go out

Definitely get a good .22 LR pistol of some sort. If you can't afford personal instruction, you can pick up some good info from the right sources.

Like this for one.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4584332856867071363

Then put what you learn to use with practice.

 

[CZ57]

To me 25 yards is for adjustable sighted revolvers and adjustable sighted .22s. For combat pistols 50 feet is the distance we shoot at. Both rested and freehand. If you shoot a tiny 1" group rested you know the accuracy potential of your pistol and have something to shoot for. It is a known fact that the vast majority of gunfights take place at 21' and under so 50' accuracy is plenty good as is 15 yards. Keep practicing at 15 yards and don't sweat 25 yards unless you are shooting adj. sighted revolvers.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

This is 50 shots, 15 yrds, brand new gun. It was actually the first 50 shots I took with the gun. I am just now starting to feel comfortable enough at 15 yrds to move to 25 yrds on a routine basis.

My recommendation if you are you is start at 5 yards and practice till you can do 50 in a group like this or better. Once you master 5 yrds, go to 7.5. Master 7.5 go to 10. Master 10 go to 15. Master 15 move to 25. Master 25, well, I will see you on the 50 yrd range because that will be where I am.

 

[Serenity]

I'm just getting started as well, with about the same number of rounds through my guns. I don't put out the paper targets every trip. Maybe every 3rd. I have my 16 year old son with me and we try to change it up; our range has tripods to hang steel plates from as well as bowling pins and barrels. If we are hitting the bowling pins consistently from 15 yards, we know we would be on a target. Plus we have to move and aim for each shot, which is good practice for future competitions.

Don't get too stuck on the target paper; take a break from it to keep it fun.

 

[mgmorden]

I've attempted to shoot as far as 15 yards... and it gets really pathetic around there. I have also not seen many other people even attempting to shoot at targets beyond that distance... most seem to be between 5 and 10 yards.

One thing you'll learn if you go to the range a lot is that MOST people can't shoot that well at all. I watch all sorts of people barely keeping rounds on a silhouette target at 3-5 yards. If you hang out on firearms forums for a while you'll get a bit discouraged as most people here have a deeper interest in firearms and as a result have put more rounds downrange and shoot better than the average person.

Just keep at it - you'll get better. Myself I've probably got around 15k handgun rounds under my belt. About half of those are with my Ruger Standard .22 and another 3000 or so are out of my M&P 9mm (the rest are spread out amongst about 10 different guns). I'm most used to those guns but even with those I don't consider myself an amazing shot. I can pretty much keep all my rounds on a sheet of copier paper at 15 yards, which is passable - though I'd like to get better.

Just understand that not all practice is created equal. If you just go out and mindlessly blast away at the target your shooting won't improve much no matter how much you shoot. Go, shoot slowly (unless you're intentionally practicing shooting fast ), and pay attention to your technique. Try to correct things you know your'e doing wrong.

 

[mdThanatos]

A lot of info has been provided, and while I am no expert marksman with a pistol, I am better than quite a few people I shoot with.

When you are starting out, go slow and start close. Try 3 or 5 yards to start then back it up to 7 yards, then 10 then 15 so on but don't increase the distance until you are consistent in your groupings.

Don't be ashamed of your targets unless you have been shooting 3" groups at 25 yards for the past 40 years and then all of a sudden your groupings look like a shotgun pattern, then you can be ashamed .

How does one get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, Practice, Practice!

 

[LiveLife]

Deliberate practice (dry fire while watching the front sight etc.) with a lot of trigger time at the range will help with obtaining consistent small shot groups.

Here are some more pointers to consider for improving off hand shooting accuracy:

Stance - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1Cf0WEeXZk&feature=related

Grip - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22msLVCtPk8&feature=relmfu

Trigger Control - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xa5JPLGIsU&feature=relmfu

Trigger & Grip Tips - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on2ikAwROTI&feature=related

 

[nathan]

I first got my Colt Series 80 in 1995. I had no experience whatsoever other than the desire to own a handgun . Then someone told me to get a Ruger .22 first so i can practice more. So i got a Ruger Mk2 bull barreled 5.5 inch . I was lucky to practice in a friend's 100 acre land plinking on tin cans and occasionally hunting on small games.
I probably shot close to 23 000 rds of .22 out of the Ruger . Back in those days the bulk ammo was around $ 7 for 550 rds unlike today it has tripled the price. Suffice to say i had had a good time learning by myself and by reading magazines and watching videotapes in the public library. Having a PC back in the late 90s was unheard of. NOw you can just search on youtube and learn a lot .

Get you a .22 pistol and enjoy the fundamentals of handgunning. Be safe.

 

[1SOW]

rcmodel, 9mmepiphany and most everyone else, +3

If you develop 'wrong' shooting habits, it's a LOT harder to "UNlearn" them than to learn the right habits the first time.
Getting some instruction will make it way easier and faster to learn the right way the first time.

One thing that helped me concentrate on the fundamentals is the simple, "aim small to miss small".

When my son and I shoot 9mm together, we always end the day by putting 12 gage hulls on the 26yd berm. First it's fun, and second it's a small target at 25 yds. There are no rings or zones around it. Only small targets lined up like in an old-time shooting arcade. It makes shooting carefully FUN.

You'll surprise yourself if you concentrate on the basics, especially grip, front sight and trigger press. You may not hit the hulls often, but your misses will be close, much closer than your 15yd groups. Trust your dominant eye, see the front sight in focus when the shot breaks. When you hit one you get an immediate verification of a good shot and a smile. You CAN see them and hit them.

Whatever you do, ENJOY the process.

 

[Hangingrock]

What’s the last thing you see before inadvertently closing your eyes during the firing sequence? As an example a semiautomatic pistol if you are not seeing the muzzle flash and or case ejection your eyes are closed. If your eyes are closed at the moment of firing your POA is potentially problematic.

 

[Dnaltrop]

With a good Model 10 in SA I can pick spent shotgun shells off of twigs and logs at 50' without much thought.

With my M&P, even though I've been shooting DA/SA revolvers most of my life, I still can't perfect a good DA pull... I'm a SA Addict... I've improved immensely however.

Last Weekend, 50', M&P .40, 3 magazines, (45 rounds) half on the center of the Head, Half on COM, 2 round groups. Still pulling to the left a Little bit, but not bad for a guy who's had his dominant hand run through a press. not too many strays Obscenely off target.

 

[Ankeny]

What’s the last thing you see before inadvertently closing your eyes during the firing sequence? As an example a semiautomatic pistol if you are not seeing the muzzle flash and or case ejection your eyes are closed. If your eyes are closed at the moment of firing your POA is potentially problematic.

I agree blinking is a bad thing, but I don't see the case eject or the muzzle flash unless I am consciously looking for those things.

 

[flatlander937]

Thank you guys for all the support/suggestions/links/etc!

Have you ruled out eye dominance issues? Your comment about left handed accuracy may hint at this.

The key to shooting consistent groups is consistency in your actions. Sight picture, breath control, trigger squeeze, etc. These are all learnable with practice, but fighting eye dominance can cause that learning curve to become much steeper.

That is one thing that I think really doesn't help... my left eye is the better of my two eyes... I've tried using both left and right eyes(one at a time, I've attempted to use both open but I can't focus worth a darn trying that).


Is it generally better to just shoot handguns with the dominant eye(left eye open, right handed in my case)? Or train with my weak eye and try to work through it?

Thanks again for all the help everybody... and hopefully I will be picking up a Ruger 22/45 within the next month, barring disaster.

 

[brickeyee]

So when you guys are talking about shooting stuff at 20-25 yards... Is this something that took you thousands and thousands of rounds to get tight/acceptable groups?

More like many tens of thousands of rounds.

Or are these groupings being done with a rest of some kind?

One handed for a long time, but medical problems force me to use two now.

 

[MrBorland]

The targets posted here remind me to mention something: Use an appropriate target. A silhouette target has it's place, but PPC shooting aside, use a bullseye-type (e.g. round & black, with scoring rings) when shooting for groups or score. A silhouette just offers too little in the way of a precise point of aim ("aim small, miss small").

As far as how big the bull should be? Official NRA targets seem well-calibrated for their respective distances. For example, I used an official B-16 25 yard target to shoot the 25 yard group below (I didn't bother adjusting sights, since I wasn't shooting for score. I used a 6 o'clock hold, even though the sights are set for center-of-mass). For 15 yards, something along the lines of a 50' NRA B-2 target would do nicely. You can go here for printable versions.

One thing that is nice is even though it feels awkward as heck, I am surprisingly accurate shooting left-handed(I'm right-handed). It just takes a second or two longer to verify a good grip before I feel confident pulling the trigger in general.

People often report better accuracy when shooting some one else's gun or using a different hand. The reason is that they're giving these shots the undivided attention and care they ought to be giving all shots.


5 rounds, 25 yards, NRA B-16 target, unsupported, double action:

 

[mavracer]

More like many tens of thousands of rounds

I'm probably in the a few hundred thousand range.

two things to work on first is sight picture.
having the front sight someplace in the rear sight is ok for up close and fast but if you want tight groups at distance you need focused sight alingment the spaces on either side of the front sight should be equal and the top of the sights must be a straight line. the target can be blurry hold a perfect sight in the same position on the blob will lead to tight groups.

the second is it's not where the sights are when you start to pull the trigger, it's where they are mili seconds later when the bullet leaves the barrel. so work on pulling the trigger without disturbing sight picture. a cheap laser pointer, some snap caps and a dot on the wall will help tremendously.

 

[Hangingrock]

This is at 25yds standing timed fire IPSC and IDPA targets with a Springfield 1911A1. The load is 200Gr SWC-FMJ – W231 (5.5Grs) –Mixed Cases & WLP. I think one can do credible work within reason on a non Bullseye target. The target on the left two hand hold and the target on the right weak hand hold.