Shot groupings at 15+ yards

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I have been shooting since I was 6 years old. Don't be to hard on yourself. It will take time. I got into hangunning quite late. But for the first six months I only shot a .22 Colt Woodsman. 200 rounds a weekend. Loved it. That will teach you all the important stuff. Trigger release and follow through.

I think you are on the right track with the idea of getting a .22. Just keep working at it.
 
Cross dominant shooters (right handed, left eye dominant) are generally best off to use the dominant eye. Just bring the gun over in front of the dominant eye.

The "fundamentals" of shooting are pretty simple. Line the sights up with each other on the target face and cause the round to discharge without disturbing the sight alignment. Simple doesn't mean easy. In addition to the "fundamentals" you have a whole host of things that make up your shooting platform, such as grip, balance, stance, etc. Be sure all of the components that make up your shooting platform are solid before investing a bunch of time and money in practice.
 
Don't feel bad about your shooting, everybody has to start at the beginning just like you. When I got started, 15 yards felt like a long way. I couldn't shoot a group either. Take time to do some reading and research and even more time for shooting. Coming onto a forum like this one, you can't use this population as a gauge of what is considered normal. Everybody on here has a huge interest in firearms, and has likely been shooting for a long time. The average person can't shoot 2" at 15 yards, I guarantee it. They'd be lucky to have 50% hit a paper plate at that distance.

Handguns are the hardest to master. Think of a right triangle. The sharpest point of the triangle is the muzzle of your pistol. The target is a point that is directly in front of the muzzle. The third point is where your round actually ends up hitting.

Any movement is going to translate into inches or feet off target. If you remember the geometrical definition of a tangent, tan(theta)=opposite length/adjacent length. For a target that is 45 feet away, that would be tan(theta)=distance off target/45. Let's say that you miss your intended mark by 6 inches, or 0.5 feet.

tan(theta)=0.5/45
tan(theta)=0.0111
arctan(0.0111)=0.64 degrees
theta=0.64 degrees.

To shoot 6 inches off your mark at 15 yards/45 feet, you need only to misalign your muzzle by 0.64 degrees.

Like I said, shooting pistols is hard!
 
....but my vision is 20/20 with my contacts in and I really just can't see that far out clearly. And if I could, the white dot of my front sight covers half of the whole target. I changed out the rear sight for a black serrated rear sight from 10-8 Performance because I had problems focusing on the front dot with the 3-dot setup.

From this description in your first post and in your follow up post a few above this one it really sounds like you've got some vision issues going on that are related to your contact lenses. Let me explain since I recently went through the same thing with wearing corrective glasses.

While my glasses did restore my vision to 20-20 the prescription produced a very definite problem with focusing on closer in objects. Anything less than 5 feet away was very hard to see with any clarity. And obviously my arms just AIN'T THAT LONG ! :D I went back to the eye doc and he confirmed that the glasses worked that way. He could add in some shorter focus correction but then I'd be at the same disadvantage for longer distance where all the distant stuff would be fuzzy.

In your case the fact that you can't clearly see a target at 25 yards suggests to me that your contacts are limiting your focusing abilty in the same manner as my glasses. But in your case your eye doc gave you a prescription that is aimed more to closer in and moderate distance to correct your vision for the more day to day detailed "desk" like functioning.

So all in all I'd suggest that you go back to the eye doc and talk things over with him about your prescription and your difficulty in focusing on more distant objects.

The final solution in my case was to go back to not using my prescription glasses. Luckily my left eye is sharp enough that I can see and shoot decently well. Well enough that I can see and put my shots generally within a 6 inch diameter at 25 yards. Which is good enough for the sort of matches I like to shoot. And well enough that with a bag rested rifle I can manage 4 to 5 inch groups at 100 yards using plain iron sights if I have the right sort of target shape to work with my questionable vision.

From your description these sort of results isn't going to happen though. So it sounds like you need to work with that eye doc to make it happen.

Now, to the sights on the gun and how you're using them. With handguns used for target shooting at various distances you want to sight over the lined up upper line of the front and rear sights. The dots on the blade and rear U are only there to aid in quickly aligning the sights in dim lighting. You're not supposed to actually put the dot where you want the hole to appear. The proper way is that when you line up the upper edges of the rear sight and front blade that the bullet hole will be half above and half below the top line of the front blade and centered on the width of the blade. If you switch to using the sights this way you'll be able to see the upper half of the distant target and line it up with the center of the top edge of the front blade for a better shot at hitting where you want to hit.

The other classic handgun hold method is the 6 o'clock or "lollipop" hold where the round bullseye is perched on the top of the front blade. The issue with this is that it's highly distance and bullseye diameter dependent. It's good for serious match bullseye shooting where you're using the same targets at the same distance ALL the time. But if you try this with a variety of targets at a variety of distances you'll end up hitting all over the place. You should STILL have good group sizes if you do. But the groups could be up and down by some amount depending on the overall geometry of the situation.

Other than that it's all about developing a good stable hold and trigger pull. You're actually what most of us would call pretty much a rank beginner with that low a round count. Very likely you could use some coaching on hold and grip technique to achieve a truly steady and non responsive hold. By this I mean your hands don't try to fight the recoil. So many try to anticipate the recoil. We call it "flinching". This never works. The optimum hold is for you to just hold the gun neutrally but with firm support and let it happen.... which isn't as easy as it sounds.

I'm a huge believer in usng a .22 handgun as both a training aid and for it's cheapness at achieving a big amount of trigger time to develop, learn and anchor good habits. But as many will be quick to say it can also entrench bad habits.

Some folks are good at self criticism and will try a lot of things and learn how to do all this successfully on their own or with the aid of written or spoken advice. Others need a hands on coaching session or two from a good instructor to point out where they are messing up.

In your case it sure sounds like some discussion with the eye doc that gave you that contacts prescription is the first step.

For the rest alter how you look over the front sight for starters. Next get on You Tube and search for "hand gun grip" or " pistol gripping". In particular this link for a promo about a Todd Jarret video has a lot of excellent grip hints.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48
 
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flatlander937
Shot groupings at 15+ yards

Yes, it takes thousands of rounds to get good out to 25 yards. Some of it is the gun, most of it is the shooter and trigger control. I still can get everything onto a 10 inch circle at 25 yards off hand (with a combat gun), but as my eyes get older it is becoming harder. At 10 yards, I can still manage to get everything in a 1 to 2" group with the occasional flyer - again, off hand. At 7 yards, it's less than 1". This is with 9mms & 4" barrels. Just yesterday I shot a new 38 spl snub and was able to get everything in about a 3" to 4" group at 7 & 10 yards, again off hand.

My suggestion is to get a revolver with a 4 or 6" barrel in 22LR. It will really get your trigger control down, and IMO it is the most important thing for accuracy. The other thing is speed. Try the 3 in 3 second test or double taps at shorter distances. It's not all about 25 yards or groupings.
 
Yes, many thousands of rounds, the good thing is you can build a lot of that muscle memory with a well built .22.

Work on both eyes open, It's best to just get used to shooting at the correct blur in your vision.

Don't be like me and completely ignore one of the two trigger pulls for decades on end. It's a pain in the rear having to teach myself that the DA trigger doesn't break like glass the instant you breathe on it. Work them both till there isn't a difference if you can.

LOTS of dry-fire practice... Stacked coins on the end of the barrel, whatever you can do to make that muzzle rock-steady from the instant you start the pull, 'till recoil pushes it out of alignment.
 
my left eye is the better of my two eyes... I've tried using both left and right eyes(one at a time, I've attempted to use both open but I can't focus worth a darn trying that).

Your strong eye isn't necessarily the one with better vision, it is the one that controls hand eye coordination, IOW, where you point your finger. With both eyes open, look at an object 10-15ft away. maintaining focus on the object, raise your dominant hand to eye level and point at the object. Now without moving your hand, close one eye. If your finger is still aligned directly with the object, the eye that is open is your dominant eye. If your finger seems to move and no longer point at the object, the eye open is your weak eye. Now change eyes to confirm.

Eye dominance has no apparent connection to handedness. Approximately 2/3 of the population is right eye, dominant, 1/3 is left eye dominant and a small number have no dominant eye. Because the dominant eye is relied on for precise positional information, having no dominant eye can make precise aiming very difficult.
 
I'm probably in the a few hundred thousand range.

Believe me, I'm with you.
I am on my third or fourth drywall bucket of used primers (heavy as hell).

It can seem discouraging to someone starting out though.

one thing the OP needs to learn is that no one can focus on the front sight, the rear site, and the target at the same time.

Human eyes are just not that good (even young ones).

Younger ones can shift focus faster, and may be able to get the front and rear sites in focus in bright light, but not the sites and the target.

If you use something like a Merit attahcment you shold be able to get everything in focus, and they are great training aids.

Once you learn how to do it correctly when you CAN see everything, it is a lot easier when you cannot.

The only thing you really need to see is the front site.

it is easy to keep the front centered in the blur of the rear (and part of why aperture sights work) and the top of the front on the center bottom of the bullseye.

Training with a.22 Rf pistol puts a premium on follow through and technique that moves to larger caliber pistols very well (and is cheaper than missing with a bigger gun trying to learn).

Even cheap .22 RF is good enough til you have nice tight groups.
You will get there a little faster using standard velocity over high speed, but when just starting even high speed is probably adequate.

I still firmly believe it is easier to speed up an accurate shooter than 'accurize' a fast shooter.

Only accurate hits count, and you cannot miss fast enough to win.
 
clean_target_sm.jpg

I've been shooting for 9 months, basically practicing nothing but bullseye. I am an 800 shooter with the 22 and around 670 with the 45 (that's out of 900). I practice usually 2 or 3 times a week, plus dry-fire practice at home.

I would highly recommend you get a dedicated 22 target pistol and practice with that a lot. Get into bullseye competition, find your local club that competes. You will learn a lot by attending competition.

Get on http://www.bullseyepistol.com/ and read about the fundamentals. Shooting 1-handed at 50 yards is really not *that* hard if you follow your fundamentals. Even my wife has managed to get decent scores at bullseye.

It does *not* take hundreds of thousands of rounds to achieve good results. What matters more is understanding your technique, executing it properly, and practicing with purpose.
 
It does *not* take hundreds of thousands of rounds to achieve good results.

That depends on how you want to define "good."

Let us know when you get those "800 shooter with the 22 and around 670 with the 45" up to 900 each, with a nice fat x-count.

And you might give 25 and 50 yards a try.
 
brickeyee: My target I posted was a B3, which is a 50' target that I shot at 20 yards indoors. If you are familiar with bullseye, you will understand that the B3 target is actually harder than the B8 25-yard sustained fire target. (http://www.indecorous.com/bullseye/rings.html)

I compete in regulation bullseye, so yes, I shoot around 800 with the 22 and around 670 with the 45, slow-fire at 50 yards, sustained at 25. So please don't make the assumption that I don't shoot those distances.

As for shooting 900, well no one has ever done that as far as I know, at least not for a whole 2700 match. I was just trying to relate my experience as a relatively inexperienced shooter and how meaningful and dedicated practice has brought me to a competitive level in the marksman class.

I never claimed to be a master or high master.
 
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I'll like to offer this picture, from another forum, as to how accurate a gun can be with a bit of practice. This is a SIG X-5 All Around 9mm (DA/SA)...which is a 5" barreled SIG 226...whcih has been slightly tuned by Grayguns (Bar-Sto barrel, tighter rear sight notch) and shooting lead reloads at 50 yards (6 rounds)

X5groupjpg.jpg
 
You are going to wobble and shake.
Just keep adding pressure to the trigger each and every time the front sight is going by the center of the target.
Then repeat as necessary until the gun goes off unexpectedly.
It will go off with the front sight on the target.

RC--
Thank you for yet again putting something into words no-one else has. That is a new way to look at it, and something new to try.
That's why I love this site--I learn something new every day.
 
Don't feel bad at all; just keep practicing. A .22 will do you a lot of good.

I, myself, have always struggled with consistency in handguns. Revolvers come easy; autos not so much (at least for me). But, just a little more practice this year has given good results for me. Just remember that most of what you will focus on is trigger control. My two shooting thoughts lately have been to not tense up my non-trigger fingers when squeezing, and "aim small, miss small" (yes, cheesy line from "The Patriot" but it basically means aim for a small target, not just for some large space).

Here's recent results:

5 shots, 10 yards, unsupported Weaver stance w/ Walther PPQ 9mm:

PPQ28Jan12.jpg

5 shots, 10 yards, unsupported Weaver stance w/ STI Spartan 9mm:

IMGP5478.jpg

5 shots, 25 yards, unsupported Weaver stance w/ STI Spartan 9mm:

IMGP5481.jpg

I'm not a great shot, but will say that I'm one of the most consistent shooters at the range that I've seen. Just take your time and practice; it will come. While there's a lot of truth to the old saying that "it's the Indian, not the arrow," I will say there are some pistols I definitely shoot more accurately than others. Trigger pull has much to do with this; a trigger that breaks cleanly around 3.5 - 4 lbs will have a huge impact on my success.
 
I had to pull this thread up to link for someone else so I figured I'd follow up:

I bought a Ruger 22/45 and have probably put about 2k rounds through it since I bought it.

Using all the help you guys gave me(and also a new contact prescription for my right eye... left stayed the same), my accuracy has improved greatly. When I first started shooting the .22 I found I was flinching slightly, which was way more noticeable with mouse-fart-like recoil. :rolleyes: So I think my shooting grip and trigger pull has probably helped the most. The suggestion of "applying more and more pressure slowly until it goes off" was one of the biggest helps... instead of focusing on pull length(which with a 1911 there isn't much), the pressure made it much better for getting slow accurate shots off.

I can shoot the Ruger out to about 20yds and keep it all in a 10-12in circle now, 8in circle if I'm having a really good day when using CCI Minimags.

The 1911 I've just discovered is shooting just slightly high(about 2in high at 10yds) and right(about 2.5in to the right at 10yds). I think I've just now gotten consistent enough to be able to reproduce the same 3-4in group at 10yds every time for me to notice. So I need to drift my rear sight a bit and I think file a bit off the front to fix the POA/POI relation.


Thanks again to everyone!


Also, I rented a Ruger LCR and was very accurate with it(compared to my 1911)... I was shooting it out to 10yds with 2in groups consistently... I think I need to buy one now as I really like a smooth DA trigger I think.:evil:
 
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