Shot placement.

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The Unknown User

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I'm hearing time and time again that with a self-defense handgun load, shot placement is more important that how big the bullet is, or how fast it moves. I remember seeing a video where a Navy SEAL was talking about their equipment, and that their sidearm is a 9mm, and how the round gets made fun of. He went on to say that his enemies won't be making fun of it when they've got two in their heart, and one in their brain.

I admit I know very little about human anatomy. I don't know how the body will be affected by a hit to a given spot.

Are there any resources that summarize things like this? Obviously, taking a shot to the brain or heart will immediately remove the threat, but are there any other areas?

Basically, I'm afraid I'll get my CCW license in a year, be forced into a situation where I absolutely need to use it, and then won't know what to do.
 
From what I've found, a shot to the heart will not immediately incapacitate. According to the FBI, if your heart is completely destroyed, you still have 10-15 seconds before you lose motor control and consciousness. This has even been verified when people have been tortured throughout history. The only scientifically proven way to instantly stop someone with a firearm is to destroy their nervous system, preferably the brain stem. I also hear that causing rapid loss of blood pressure from blood loss and the psychological thoughts of being shot are the two most reliable instant incapacitation factors that follow after central nervous system destruction. A police officer once told me that some people have been shot at and their autopsies couldn't find any logical reasons why they died other than extreme shock. Then if you shoot them in structural areas needed for them to attack you, that can cause incapacitation, but it's very difficult to aim for any of these places. Most recommend to aim for the center of mass, not the brain stem or structural parts of the body. Since it's very difficult to aim in a high stress situation anyway, you're chances are best for aiming at the chest and not to stop firing until the threat stops.
 
A very close friend of mine was shot in the gut from less than a foot away with a .38. He was able to break the shooter's nose, and make it back to his second-floor apartment to get help befor he collapsed.

He was also walking an alaskan malamute at the time, and never let go of the leash.

So, even a shot to (roughly) COM with a decent caliber pistol won't drop a person every time.

Also - headshots are not always fatal. I can count at least five times I've seen episodes of COPS where some stupid dope fiend or unlucky innocent was shot in their melon and escaped alive. Bullets do wierd things once they enter flesh. A shot that'd kill a man one instant will go through-and-through the next guy and he'll be up walking two days later.

Long story short, I say aim for COM and keep shooting 'till the threat is neutralized.
 
Again two very good responses. In a situation like what you are talking about shoot the largest part of the body. Then after that you will know what it's like to take a life. Don't get me wrong I will do anything to protect my family or myself.
 
Thanks for the responses. After I posted I remembered hearing about how some people have still made it through some pretty serious injuries.

I'm in the process of reading my grandfather's diary from WWII, and one of his friends took a shot from a friendly to the head (by accident), and was alive for almost 20 minutes before passing.

I've also read a number of FBI case reports (when I was looking at what type of caliber is appropriate for concealed carry) where a perpetrator was shot multiple times and nothing would stop them.

I really hope I never have to use a weapon on anyone (actually the idea of it really scares me), but I guess I'll just have to hope that I come out okay. :p

Edit: Kingpin, sorry to hear about your friend. I hope he is okay. Care to share the story behind it? I'll understand if you decline.
 
Get some training learn some mindset learn to fight with your weapon and think with your head.
 
I can count at least five times I've seen episodes of COPS where some stupid dope fiend or unlucky innocent was shot in their melon and escaped alive.
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Sure, but wasn't subject at least sufficiently incapacitated by the wound to the head?
 
Care to share the story behind it? I'll understand if you decline.
Click to expand...

Basically, three of my friends got an apartment together just after highschool. There was no phone in the apartment, because they were all poor idiots working crappy jobs. Frankie (the one who was shot) went one night to the payphone across the street to make a call, and walk their dog at the same time. As he was getting ready to make the call, this guy comes out from behind a car and asks Frankie if he has a dime he can borrow to call a cab. Frankie says no, he only has a calling card. The guy sticks a .38 snub in his gut and tells him to give up the cash - Frankie tells him he doesn't have any and to F#@k off. Guy shoots frankie in the gut, and tries to snatch the calling card. The dog tried to run away at the noise (he was a sweet dumb thing, no attack dog) and in the commotion the guy turns away. Frankie manages to knee the guy in the neck/face while he's trying for the card, and the guy splits.

Frankie made it back up to the apartment and told them what happened, then dropped in the front hallway of the apartment building as they tried to get him downstairs to wait for the ambulance. He got to the hospital in time, and they got him to surgery. He lost a section of his intestine and his stomach had to be repaired where part of the bullet tore the stomach wall, but he's alive.

They found the body of the guy who shot him a few days later, not far from the area where frankie was shot. Apparently he was a local junkie who ripped off the wrong person some time after he tried to kill my friend for a $5 phone card.
 
My.02 cents.

There is a bit more physiology behind the "Tap Tap Splat" shot placement.

The first 2 (dbl tap) should be higher up into the brachial tree (above the heart) up to the chin area. Makes for higher degree of lethality, and spine strike upon exit, than the standard COM placement. Third tap placement transition to target via linear recoil assist into brain pan into the area of the eyes (think racoon mask for targeting)for a catastophic hit . Lethality and little chance of a sympathetic reflex trigger pull.

Peace
Steel Talon:cool:
 
Sure, but wasn't subject at least sufficiently incapacitated by the wound to the head?
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Pretty much, but in some cases I wonder how much of that is due to fear. I mean, if someone was either A.) High enough or B.) Just didn't care enough, they might be able to fight through the pain/shock of that kind of wound.

Or, an individual shooting someone in the head may think it's a mortal wound, and let down their guard sin such a way or for a length of time sufficient for said badguy to mount another attack.

Unlikely, but possible. There's a reason hunters always poke their prey before they get too close, after all! Gotta make sure.
 
FWIW-
Got two Dr.s in the family, one with extensive trauma experience, the other is a cardiologist. Both are of the opinion that a clean shot thru the heart still leaves a person with 15-30 seconds of operational capacity, double that on drugs. Both agree that one thru the obdula/brain stem stops everything right now. FWIW.

Also, just took my NM CCW class in January, one of the students was a retired SpecOps (Green Beenie), his opinion based on exprience, was the same. Brain stem shots (as opposed to head shots in general) are the only 'one shot stops' that work, caliber is irrelevant, YMMV.
 
Some old gunny - 'Jelly' Bryce, I think - thought that a gut-shot was a good place to start. If the guy fails to stop, let the recoil lead you and stitch your way up north... that was his take on things, anyhow. Not that it was sacred and holy, of course - but it seemed to work for him okay.

I reckon that a bullet in that region could be very painful. Think you've got a lot of closely-packed organs/intestines down there. You're also probably shooting into the ground behind him if the bullet punches clear through - for the first shot or two, that is.

I don't know if a shot to COM area causes as much pain as a shot to the nether regions. You may have more physical stopping power (that is, stopping an attack due to significant blood loss, lung damage - factors not relating to mental state of attacker) with a COM shot, but I'm guessing that a gut shot might have more mentally-related stopping power.

I'm not saying a gut shot's better than one to COM - just saying that it might cause an attacker more pain than a COM shot. More pain might cause him to stop right there. Or not.

Here's an interesting chart showing a 'timetable of death.' From Fairbairn's 'Get Tough' book - so it's old, possibly with incorrect data. It was made to show places of attack for a knife-wielder.
http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/timetable.gif
 
Rob87 - alot of what folks are talking about here can be learned by practicing what's known as the "Mozambique" method. As I understand it - from a "surrender" position (hands held up at shoulder height as if "surrendering") one draws their pistol, and executes a double tap to COM and then a single finishing shot to the head. If you search here or google for either "Mozambique" or "failure to stop" drills you should find some good pages that detail it pretty clearly.
 
The first 2 (dbl tap) should be higher up into the brachial tree (above the heart) up to the chin area. Makes for higher degree of lethality, and spine strike upon exit, than the standard COM placement. Third tap placement transition to target via linear recoil assist into brain pan into the area of the eyes (think racoon mask for targeting)for a catastophic hit . Lethality and little chance of a sympathetic reflex trigger pull.
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The prison gang 'hit' method is to puncture both lungs with their improvised stabbing weapons.

Pilgrim
 
My best advise is.....PRACTICE.... You should practice till everything, every movement and motion is second nature. You hear of LEO's and Military say that when the SHTF, their TRAINING took over. Will you be scared??? I am sure, as I would be too. But when you react out of instinct rather than askin yourself 'what next, what do I do?' it will have already happened and you stand a much better chance of surviving.

One example

When I first got heavy into pistols, I mostly shot long guns before, and thinking about self-defence, I had been shooting a friends 1911. He showed me how to properly hold it when shooting. I started to practice that hold and pay more attention to how i held every pistol I picked up. Within a few short days I noticed that every time I held a pistol, I held it the right way and it was now second nature. I no longer have to tell myself how to do it because it is natural.

Good Luck
 
Target1911
+1 for what you said!

In a crisis situation of this nature, people don't rise to the occasion - They sink to their level of training.
 
Geronimo45 said “Some old gunny - 'Jelly' Bryce, I think - thought that a gut-shot was a good place to start. If the guy fails to stop, let the recoil lead you and stitch your way up north... that was his take on things, anyhow. Not that it was sacred and holy, of course - but it seemed to work for him okay.”

Sounds like a pretty good philosophy to me, keeping in mind that ammo is cheap, and caskets are expensive!
 
Got two Dr.s in the family, one with extensive trauma experience, the other is a cardiologist. Both are of the opinion that a clean shot thru the heart still leaves a person with 15-30 seconds of operational capacity, double that on drugs.
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I wouldn't call it opinion, as it's much closer to hard fact.

The only thing that the heart does is pump blood, and blood is used primarily to transport oxygen and glucose. When blood flow stops in a person,due to destruction of the heart, the replenishment of oxygen and glucose to the person's muscles ends. Operational capability ceases when the person's muscles have used up the locally available supply of oxygen and glucose. That's where the 15-30 second number comes from.

Vasoconstriction, a common side effect of illicit drugs, slows the blood loss and likely accounts for the higher operational time of drugged individuals.

I don't know if a shot to COM area causes as much pain as a shot to the nether regions. You may have more physical stopping power (that is, stopping an attack due to significant blood loss, lung damage - factors not relating to mental state of attacker) with a COM shot, but I'm guessing that a gut shot might have more mentally-related stopping power.
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I'm not too sure on this one. A upper chest COM shot definately has more physiological stopping power than a lower torso COM shot. But psychologically? A lower torso shot might hurt more, but people also know that a upper chest shot is very bad news.
 
BUT

Quote:
I'm hearing time and time again that with a self-defense handgun load, shot placement is more important that how big the bullet is, or how fast it moves.
....................
...

The Larger bullet, being more forgiving in its shot placement, as opposed to the smaller bullet, being less forgiving in its shot placement.

Comparing size with "almost a perfect shot" ..one has more impact load, carry, and width, in, as an example, severing a nerve or major blood vessel, etc., in a "near miss" scenario.

O<
0 <
o <

Mathematics does not lie..


LS
 
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Oh God...Lonestar...ya done went and introduced logic into the argument. Bad juju.

Biker;)
 
Place Shotment

The Larger bullet, being more forgiving its place shotment, as opposed to the smaller bullet, being less forgiving in its place shotment.
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Dude.

And you said that with a straight face.

:D
 
Thanks AG for the Brain-fart reminder

Quote:

Oh God...Lonestar...ya done went and introduced logic into the argument. Bad juju.

Biker ;)
---------------

:what: *** was I thinking, it was a "near miss" perfect statement but, thanks to AG's keen eyes, he nailed me,

> with a perfect Brain-Fart hit.



LS :D


PS.. I changed it above, with an admission of my age
 
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