Shot placement.

[thexrayboy]

Shot placement is in the opinion of most the number one factor. You have to hit the target to cause some sort of an effect. If you can hit it with a bigger faster projectile thats fine but you have to hit it first.

Where to shoot is also a factor. Most training is to shoot COM, this is for a reason. You are not shooting at a cardboard target, you will be shooting at a living, breathing moving person. No matter how skilled you are it is easy to miss. If you target a specific area such as the head or heart you just make it harder to put the round where you want it. Shooting at COM simplifies things, you are not thinking about what anatomy you hope to hit or anything else. You are just wanting to hit the 10 ring. Fortunately that 10 ring on a frontal human sillouhette contains a large number of highly vascular structures
plus the spine. All of these are high value targets when it comes to making someone cease and desist. Unfortunately no pistol has the power to guarantee one stop shots and no two humans react the same to being shot.
The training is basically premised on odds. If you hit the COM, especially multiple times with an adequate caliber round your odds of making the target cease and desist increase. Not a guarantee, just an increase in the probability.

People have been shot through the heart and lived, people have been shot in the head and lived, People have been shot in virtually any anatomical area you can think of and lived. Its just the chances of surviving these wounds are
very small compared with being shot in the Gluteus maximus or other less essential areas. Its all a matter of chance when you talk about gunshots, what the odds are are and just plain dumb luck.

 

[earplug]

Years ago, talking to my Army PA in Panama and dealing with junkyard dogs leads me to believe that center of mass should be shifted North to just above the nipples.
Lots of Blood pipes and strong percentage of hit to the spine.
I don't recall the study that led to this aim point. I think it was the same study that gave us the 9MM in the Military.
Shots to the big middle don't do much fast.
I think its a mistake in todays targets and scorings tha give us a big middle training mind set.

 

[James T Thomas]

complexities

If it's the same man, "Jelly" Bryce; he was a phenomenal shot. As an FBI agent he stormed into a room where a known fellon was hiding, and was able to kill him even though he had a loaded 1911 in hand! If the quote about stomach shot was actually from him, I would be surprized.


An unmentioned physiologic response to heart or major artery wounding
is the loss of consciousness or passing out if you will. With wounds to the heart or major arteries a person will drop over because of precipitous drop in blood pressure as opposed to a bleeder type of wound where the person "bleeds out." An abrupt pressure drop, even though fatal volume loss has not been reached will cause the passing out, while the more gradual loss is not such a shock and the system tries to maintain stasis, or keep you going.

Perhaps someone with medical training can state just how low the BP must go before we loose consciousness, but I believe it is not too far below the normal 120:80 mm. The rate of BP change is the factor.

Also a rapid surge or rise in BP can have the same effect, and a direct hit in the heart could hydraulically transmit such a peak rise to the brain with, again a sudden loss of consciousness.

And to further complicate the matter, I would think a puncture in the lower heart chambers, which route to the brain would produce one of those two effects more so than a strike to the upper chambers or of course the muscular heart division, the septum. The valves upstream to the upper chambers shut off "backflow," therefor any reverse pressure wave, while valves beyond the lower chambers open to permit such flow.

I hope I have this anatomy and physiology correct, and none of you have become glassy eyed.

 

[thexrayboy]

A round striking the heart lacks enough energy to send a "shockwave" of blood to the head causing us to pass out. People sometimes will pass out or drop from gun shot even if they have not bled out enough to actually become hypoxic to the point of syncope. This can be attributed to neurophysiologic reactions akin to a vasovagal reaction where extreme emotional or physiologic disturbance can cause a dramatic drop in BP to the point that the brain lacks the O2 to function. What that exact number is varies between people but typically if your systolic drops much below 80 most people become glassy, altered and start to lose function. Even at levels above that cognizant function can be impaired. Young healthy adult males are less susceptible to these phenomena. Often a round will penetrate the myocardium delivering a fatal wound but the muscle will tamponade the bleeding off so that life....and the ability to fight back remain for several minutes. The walking dead so to speak. The nearest thing to a guranteed one stop drop is a round that severs the spinal cord above mid thoracic. This will render a person unable to stand. Get into the high thoracic and lower cervical spine and damage can paralyze the arms. See the attached diagram for specifics.

 

[BullfrogKen]

During my physicals in the Marines my BP came in at 80/60 consistently. The first one caused some consternation among the Corpsman, and it got rechecked a few times until it became my accepted "Normal" pressure.

A decade + later, after an internal bleed associated to my disease, I read somewhere in the low 70's/mid 40's to 50's. Nurse Practitioner actually had to take it by hand to get accurately, as the steth wasn't picking up the diastolic. I was tired, lethargic, and unable to concentrate on complex problems.


Blood loss affects us all differently. We train to aim for the cardiac triangle, and the spinal area down to the pelvic girdle for COM shots. The occular window serves for our scoring area on a head shot. I have plenty of IDPA targets we drew our outline upon for anyone interested in seeing one.


Additionally, with this knowledge of the human body, recognize what it is we need to let these effects (shock and blood loss) cause the body to succumb.


Time.


We need time to let those effecs occur. More shots won't do it. The way we gain time is to move off the LOF. Should he re-engage, beyond clearly announcing his intentions and level of commitment, the movement he makes to re-engage us takes time, and even further shortens the delay period of the onset of shock as more oxygen is used in the process of physically re-orienting to you.

You don't need to understand the in depth medical terminology and body processes for it to work, or to justify the tactic of moving off the line of force. The Practitioner gains many advantages by the cycle of (move) shoot, move, access . . . repeat as needed. This is a strategy that swordsmen practiced; we just do it with guns.

 

[camslam]

Simple science to me. Shot placement is the most important item, but I would much rather have a bullet that is larger versus smaller to do more damage.

Think about it, if you can handle and shoot accurately a larger round, why would you go with something smaller? I know there are personal reasons for everyone, but as for me I'm sticking with my 14 rounds of .45 ACP.

Bigger holes regardless where they hit, better chance of incapacitating the criminal.

 

[mdao]

I think its a mistake in todays targets and scorings tha give us a big middle training mind set.

Many targets are designed for the lowest common denominator. Given how poorly most people shoot under stress, targets that focus on the center of mass make a lot of sense. It gives plenty of room for error, and poorly placed hits to the COM are better than misses.

 

[Owen]

Bigger holes, or more holes....

seems tough to measure.

 

[Geronimo45]

If the quote about stomach shot was actually from him, I would be surprized.

Found my original source for that comment:

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=538
Post 4.

If you're as fast as he was, though, I imagine that stitching up north would be a pretty quick thing.

Anyways - I love coming into discussions like this and posing something totally different from everybody else.

center of mass should be shifted North to just above the nipples.

A couple of instructors are teaching that very thing.

 

[James T Thomas]

reconsideration

XRayboy:

I'm sorry, my terminology was poorly chosen. I agree with you that a pressure wave would not travel in the system.

What I'm grasping at is a pulse of pressure. Being that blood is mostly water, and that water is considered incompressible by normal standards, then the acute peak of pressure from the round entering the heart chamber may be very rapidly sensed in the brain pressure regulation systems and result in that shut down.

I'm just talking conjecture here in the interest of the topic, and attempting to remain plausable.

An example is the deer shot in the heart with a high powered round where the heart is destroyed. The heart itself may contain ~15 percent of the total body blood volume, but the animal drops anyway. Sudden BP drop.

Thanks for the interesting chart.

 

[thexrayboy]

What I'm grasping at is a pulse of pressure. Being that blood is mostly water, and that water is considered incompressible by normal standards, then the acute peak of pressure from the round entering the heart chamber may be very rapidly sensed in the brain pressure regulation systems and result in that shut down.

I'm just talking conjecture here in the interest of the topic, and attempting to remain plausable.

In theory and in the field of hydraulics such an energy surge could be transmitted for a distance through the "hoses" attached to the pump/reservoir. The human anatomy is more flexible. Arterial and venous structures are made up of three layers of tissue including smooth muscle. They have the capacity to expand and contract significantly and rapidly. The amount of energy needed to overcome this elasticity is greater than the kinetic energy of a handgun round and probably most rifle rounds. Comparing humans to deers is valid at times in terms of weight but physiologically we are very different. Deer are easy to stop compared to humans. Humans are more like pigs physiologically, many a javelina hunter can attest to how tough a 150# wild pig can be.

 

[WolfMansDad]

Don't try to over-think it. Fighting isn't rocket science.

If you are in a fistfight, punch the guy in the face or the stomach, and keep punching him until he goes down.

If you are in a gunfight, shoot the biggest target on your attacker you can see, and keep shooting him until he goes down.

Quit once he goes down, but watch him carefully. He may get back up and kick your a**. (I learned that one the hard way.)

Follow these simple rules, and you don't NEED to know any anatomy or physiology.

 

[Sharps-shooter]

When I was in grade school, One of our teachers was shot through the chest (and out the back) with a 30-06 rifle. The person holding the rifle was in the same room with her-- pretty close range. It would have taken about thirty minutes for the ambulance to get to her, if they were called and dispatched immediately, and another hour and more to get her to the hospital. She didn't die. She didn't even have any broken ribs, somehow.

On the other hand, I've heard tales of people getting shot with .22 pistols and sustaining massive, fatal injuries from the bullet ricocheting around inside them.

What happens when a bullet meets a person is pretty chaotic. Tissue density, bone structure, bullet velocity and angle of incidence all play huge roles. you can't expect the results to be completely consistent from one case to the next. all you can really do is increase your odds of success by studying and training.

 

[03Shadowbob]

I totally agree that practice is key but make sure it is good practice and not just having the perfect stance and lining up your sites. If that's how you practice then God help you if you ever get in a situation.
All I can say is that when the SHTF you are trying to hit COM and if you get a headshot that's a bonus. I have seen where in gun fights the LEO was aiming COM as best he could and he still hit the ankle, forearm, knee, etc. In a gun fight, chances are you will not be standing there and calmly firing. You will be moving, sliding, etc. so you are not hit while you are still firing your weapon trying to hit the BG. It ain't like the movies.

 

[shadowalker]

Shot placement is important but right behind it is bullet performance. You need to make sure you have a caliber / bullet that is capable of holding together and penetrating enough to count.

It isn't just the size of the bullet it is the weight and bullet construction. Stay away from frangible, super light and bullets designed not to penetrate, they are a failure to stop waiting to happen.

One of the benefits of larger bullets is they tend to be heavier, handgun bullets over 200 grains are less likely to deflect on bone and muscle.

 

[gunmetal]

http://www.spw-duf.info/emperor.html#extreme
http://www.spw-duf.info/emperor.html#aiming
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2000/15Nov00.html

 

[expvideo]

My COM story

I don't like to tell this story because it is very hard on me emotionally, so please be satisfied with few details:
Almost 2 years ago a friend of mine accidentally shot me in the chest with a .25acp pistol. The bullet pierced the right ventrical of my heart, bounced off of the rear of my rib cage and came to rest in my diaphragm. It did not hurt at first, it felt like a punch to the chest. No burning, no sharp pain. I walked to the living room and was up and about for at least 30 seconds before I passed out. Due to the same friend being proficient with CPR, a quick paramedic response, and a close proximity to the #1 trauma center in my area, the doctors were able to save my life. I live today with no side-effects, and a much greater appreciation for gun safety. I don't want to go any farther into that story, as it is very emotional for me. I'll attach a picture only because I don't want people telling me I'm lying. Having to "prove it" doesn't help me to deal with it.

I thought that story would be appropriate for those that think a COM shot is effective.



My personal advice is to start at the bladder. If you hit the bladder it will essentially explode, as liquid reacts more violently to bullets than tissue does. You won't be doing the guy any favors and the ER docs will hate you, but it should stop him instantly. He might actually live through it, but quality of life will be severly changed. If you miss, you're still in the pelvis which will greatly reduce the attacker's capabilities. Also, as you can tell from when you get bloated or when you have to urinate, there are a lot of nerves there.

If the perp doesn't stop, stitching your way up the spine toward the head is a good way to go. Just remember that when you start low, the risk of hitting someone else via over-penetration (or just plain missing) is much less.

Again, this is a hard thing to do to another human being, but you can take some comfort in the phylosophy that he chose to play "big boy games" and can therefor play by "big boy rules".

It's sad, but no sane person wants to have to pull the trigger on another person. It's one of the things we have to accept as responsible CCWers.

 

[Bezoar]

dont forget that in world war 1 a large number of soldiers were surviving armor piercing machine gunbullets that went through helmet and head.

The mob hitmen from what ive read from fbi file books,liked to walk the slugs up the victims spine. aparently that way they would bust the spine or bust up the vital organs like spleen, liver, lungs, heart along the way to the head.

Personally, a couple good jsp's to the chest should take most people down- it works on deer rather well.