I've heard alot of people carry shotguns for protection against bears but I've only heard of one incident of a bear being killed with a shotgun. It took 5 shots and long time and it was a black bear. Should I feel comfortable with a shotgun for protection against bears, especially those big brown ones? Does anyone know of any bears that have been killed by a shotgun?
Shotgun adequate for bear?
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RNB65
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A pump shotgun loaded with slugs is probably the best defense against bears.
redneck2
Member
I suspect it depends a lot on the load. Some people may try to use regular bird shot. Not such a good idea.
I had a black bear hunt scheduled a few years ago. I was going to take my 45-70. Guide that organized the hunt said THE best thing was a 12 gauge with slugs.
If you're not familiar, there's a world of difference even in slugs. For deer, I used high velocity Hornady's. 385 grains at 2,000 fps. I'd bet it would exit from any angle. Just the regular Foster type should be fine.
Nice thing about shotguns is that they're so quick to point and shoot.
Go to the "Box-O-Truth" site and see what they'll do.
mswestfall
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I think I'd rather shoot a lever action 30-30, 45/70 or maybe even a 44 magnum pistol at a bear at close range. These will have better penetration depths than a slugged shotgun.
A rifle is better suited for shot placement as the distance increases. States that require the use of Shotguns for deer do so because the slug is considerably less effective as the distance increases.
A pump or a semi-automatic shotgun would load faster than a lever action gun.
A rifle is better suited for shot placement as the distance increases. States that require the use of Shotguns for deer do so because the slug is considerably less effective as the distance increases.
A pump or a semi-automatic shotgun would load faster than a lever action gun.
Titan6
member
Keep in mind that the bear will have to be at close range (100 meters or less) for a good clean kill. At that range and closer it is hard to beat the power of a 12ga slug. Past 150 yards shooting with a shotgun gets to be a pointless proposition for me.
mossberg702
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i think that the best shot for a 12 gauge is eather a slug in a pump action or maybe 00 buck shot because if there is a bear running at you at 30 mph then you dont have much time to aim.
mossberg702
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I also know people thatb hunt bears with a 7mm 08 about 250 grains and takes care of them at 200 yards>
cat_IT_guy
Member
Slugs on bears at close range with a good shot is enough.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Skip the buckshot, stick to slugs- and Brennekes at that.
lpl/nc
=========
http://www.arm.gov/sites/nsa/nsa_fsp.pdf
http://www.nps.gov/archive/bela/html/morebear.htm
http://icwdm.org/handbook/carnivor/GrizzlyBears.asp
http://wolves.wordpress.com/2007/08...-the-wild-in-island-park-id-for-bad-behavior/
lpl/nc
=========
http://www.arm.gov/sites/nsa/nsa_fsp.pdf
http://www.nps.gov/archive/bela/html/morebear.htm
http://icwdm.org/handbook/carnivor/GrizzlyBears.asp
http://wolves.wordpress.com/2007/08...-the-wild-in-island-park-id-for-bad-behavior/
carebear
Member
What Lee said.
Hardcast shotgun slugs, Brenneke's are ideal. The key is penetration on the big bears.
Not buckshot and preferably not soft Foster-type slugs.
As far as rate of fire, the semi-auto might have a bit of an advantage but I can shoot a lever gun or a pump almost as fast.
.45-70 with a Buffalo Bore-type heavy load is a perfectly good rifle choice.
Hardcast shotgun slugs, Brenneke's are ideal. The key is penetration on the big bears.
Not buckshot and preferably not soft Foster-type slugs.
As far as rate of fire, the semi-auto might have a bit of an advantage but I can shoot a lever gun or a pump almost as fast.
.45-70 with a Buffalo Bore-type heavy load is a perfectly good rifle choice.
MCgunner
Member
.357 or .41 or .44 mag is plenty for black bear with proper shot placement. They might have had that shotgun loaded with buckshot, not nearly as effective as a slug.
If I were up in Alaska and worried about the big griz up there, I like that Browning BLR chambered in .325 Winchester Short Magnum. It's laying down nearly 4000 ft lbs at the muzzle and carries that way out there. GOT to be as effective as the .338 Winchester Magnum. It's certainly more punch than any 12 gauge slug and a lot better range and accuracy to boot. From the muzzle to 400 yards, it'll lay down more power than a slug. I'd HUNT bear with it, let alone self defense.
If I were up in Alaska and worried about the big griz up there, I like that Browning BLR chambered in .325 Winchester Short Magnum. It's laying down nearly 4000 ft lbs at the muzzle and carries that way out there. GOT to be as effective as the .338 Winchester Magnum. It's certainly more punch than any 12 gauge slug and a lot better range and accuracy to boot. From the muzzle to 400 yards, it'll lay down more power than a slug. I'd HUNT bear with it, let alone self defense.
carebear
Member
Agreed, but heck, I'd hunt big bear with a decent .30-06 round.
There's a world of difference between picking a shot at an unsuspecting relaxed bruin from a distance and trying to stop an amped-up charge, by definition from very close range, with a CNS shot, breaking a shoulder or causing massive bleeding.
Nothing wrong with the big rifles, they just (usually) aren't as handy for hauling around when not hunting.
There's a world of difference between picking a shot at an unsuspecting relaxed bruin from a distance and trying to stop an amped-up charge, by definition from very close range, with a CNS shot, breaking a shoulder or causing massive bleeding.
Nothing wrong with the big rifles, they just (usually) aren't as handy for hauling around when not hunting.
Shotgun for Brown Bear?
"Killing" a bear is one thing. Stopping it quickly is another thing. I saw a 160 pound deer that was shot at 25 yards through the lungs with a 12 gauge slug and it ran over 100 yards at full speed after the shot before expiring.
Also, the Foster slug failed to exit the other side of the deer. This means that the slug dumped its entire energy in the deer and still didn't stop it.
If the soft Foster slug wouldn't penetrate better than that on a small deer, it might not penetrate well enough to reach the vitals of a big brown bear. I would rather carry something like a .416 Remington Magnum than a shotgun.
"Killing" a bear is one thing. Stopping it quickly is another thing. I saw a 160 pound deer that was shot at 25 yards through the lungs with a 12 gauge slug and it ran over 100 yards at full speed after the shot before expiring.
Also, the Foster slug failed to exit the other side of the deer. This means that the slug dumped its entire energy in the deer and still didn't stop it.
If the soft Foster slug wouldn't penetrate better than that on a small deer, it might not penetrate well enough to reach the vitals of a big brown bear. I would rather carry something like a .416 Remington Magnum than a shotgun.
Bartkowski
Member
So would I, but I do not have a gun in that chambering, I do have a shotgun and I don't want to go spend a fortune on a .416. A shotgun will kill a bear, although some slugs work better than others. If I were to buy a bear defense rifle, I would buy a marlin guide gun in 45-70.
MCgunner
Member
Well, the BLR is NOT an UNhandy rifle. It's heavier than a M94, but hey, it's a hell of a lot more gun! It has over twice the muzzle energy of the typical .30-30 and the Inuit have killed a lot of bear with the ol' .30-30. Of course, the Inuit of 50 years ago, their suvival often depended on their marksmanship. It's all in where you put the round. A 416 ain't gonna make up for poor shot placement.
Typical 12 gauge slugs carry something over 3K ft lbs at the muzzle, but shed energy rapidly once they leave the bore. That Browning seems like the perfect answer to me for brown bear country, though I'd prefer something with plastic stocks or laminated and stainless like the guide gun. Sure hate to mess up the pretty wood and bluing on that Browning in a harsh environment.
I know lots of game wardens and professionals carry 12s in bear country, but then, the tax payers or company comptrollers are footing the bill. Me, my life on the line, I'll take a magnum big bore rifle, thanks.
I reckon, though, the Marlin with a HOT .45-70 load would work fine. I just like the energy and ballistics of that .325 WSM. It basically mimics the .338 win mag in a handier rifle.
Omaha-BeenGlockin
Member
Mossberg---I'm not aware of any 250gn-- 7mm bullets that are even available---let alone the 7mm-08 being capable of driving that heavy a bullet at decent velocity at that range. Might want to recheck your statements.
Tag
Member
We had a large Blackie shot through the heart w/ a 30-06 two years ago in northern michgan that made it a good 75 yards before he was down. There was nothing much left of the heart.
When I was in Alaska the folks up there said a 12GA w/ slugs and a load of buckshot up front was the way to go for personal protection. The first load going for the face, to disrupt the bears ability to track/see you, and the rest for taking apart the shoulders.
I'd go w/ a shottie myself.
be safe.
(I miss the woods man, this city living is not for me . . . )
When I was in Alaska the folks up there said a 12GA w/ slugs and a load of buckshot up front was the way to go for personal protection. The first load going for the face, to disrupt the bears ability to track/see you, and the rest for taking apart the shoulders.
I'd go w/ a shottie myself.
be safe.
(I miss the woods man, this city living is not for me . . . )
During my 11 years in Alaska, I went thru several gun combo's for "bear defense". Started with pistols (.44 Blackhawk/Redhawk & .454 Casull), progressed to rifle (Mdl 600 Remington in .350 Mag and custom Siamese Mauser in 45/70), finally settling on a satin nickel 37 Ithaca 12 guage loaded with Brenneke's as the handiest to tote around while being able to get into action quick.
I had several bear encounters (mostly blacks and one brown bear), but fortunately never had to shoot (though it was close once on the Russian River
).
The best bear protection in my experience was good sitiuational awareness.
YMMV.
I had several bear encounters (mostly blacks and one brown bear), but fortunately never had to shoot (though it was close once on the Russian River
). The best bear protection in my experience was good sitiuational awareness.
YMMV.
I always thought to stagger buck, slug, buck, slug, but the 1 buck, then the rest slugs sounds like a pretty good idea to me. Many areas I have started camping in recently has black bears, I only have an Ithaca 20 O/U, so the shotgun isn't an option for me. I always carry my Kimber .45. Its not ideal, but its something.
MCgunner
Member
As is with any self defense...
I'll never have to deal with browns/griz. Most I'll every have to "worry" about is black bear and I've never really worried about black bear other than keeping food out of my tent and tied high in a tree or locked up in the vehicle if I'm in a 4 wheeler. I don't consider black bear a real threat. I treat 'em like gators, just give 'em a wide birth. Most of the black bear attacks I hear about occur at night and the victim is dragged out of his/her tent. I can almost guarantee you there was something in that tent, food, giving the bear a smell he liked.
evbutler462
Member
FWIW, when I was a kid back in the 1940's, food was scarce due to war rationing. All we had to eat was what we could grow on our farm and what we could harvest from the swamps and forests. Living near the huge Green Swamp of NC we bagged many a deer and black bear that ended up on the dining table. These critters were shot with buckshot. I'm sure there were slugs available but we had never heard of them.
Almost everyone in our isolated clearings old Stevens doubles or pumps of unknown genealogy. Many had only a single barrel. My family had an old Palmetto ( a pot metal wonder that still has a place of honor in our family)single barrel with a nail for a firing pin. Most of these old guns had their share of tape and wire holding the forend or stock in place. Paper shells were the norm as plastic didn't come out until the mid-1960's. Money was non-existent. Social security hadn't kicked in yet and welfare was considered beneath our dignity, so it was barter farm products for ammo. High powered rifles hadn't found their way to these isolated islands and clearings. If they had, we couldn't have afforded them anyway.
Everyone had a pack of hunting dogs. Deer and bear were plentiful. Buckshot was the only ammo available to us, so far as I know. I was a grown man when I first saw a pumpkin ball shotgun shell. It was just a large 12 gauge ball. I never knew anyone that used them but I shot one once and found it to be accurate enough.
Had it not been for buckshot, our meat supply would have been non-existent, except for the squirrels, coon, and other small game that could be harvested with small shot. My point is that buckshot is sufficient for bear. I have seen some very large black bears taken with buckshot. I never felt undergunned with 00 buck, as this was the only buckshot available in our part of the world.
I realize that there are better loads available now. We used what we had to use and it worked just fine. Believe me when I say that a bear being plagued by a pack of dogs is a mad critter and quite dangerous. 00 buck fed us during these times. My wife will not eat wild animals until this day due to the fact that she was raised on them and can't stand them now. She will cook them for me but she had a "belly full and a bait" of wild food to last her the rest of her life.
Since there are better loads available nowadays, no problem with me that you use them. Back during the Great Depression, those old paper shelled 2.75" 00 buckshot did a good job. They worked so well that I am sure that the new fangled 3" 000 buck won't bounce off them.
Almost everyone in our isolated clearings old Stevens doubles or pumps of unknown genealogy. Many had only a single barrel. My family had an old Palmetto ( a pot metal wonder that still has a place of honor in our family)single barrel with a nail for a firing pin. Most of these old guns had their share of tape and wire holding the forend or stock in place. Paper shells were the norm as plastic didn't come out until the mid-1960's. Money was non-existent. Social security hadn't kicked in yet and welfare was considered beneath our dignity, so it was barter farm products for ammo. High powered rifles hadn't found their way to these isolated islands and clearings. If they had, we couldn't have afforded them anyway.
Everyone had a pack of hunting dogs. Deer and bear were plentiful. Buckshot was the only ammo available to us, so far as I know. I was a grown man when I first saw a pumpkin ball shotgun shell. It was just a large 12 gauge ball. I never knew anyone that used them but I shot one once and found it to be accurate enough.
Had it not been for buckshot, our meat supply would have been non-existent, except for the squirrels, coon, and other small game that could be harvested with small shot. My point is that buckshot is sufficient for bear. I have seen some very large black bears taken with buckshot. I never felt undergunned with 00 buck, as this was the only buckshot available in our part of the world.
I realize that there are better loads available now. We used what we had to use and it worked just fine. Believe me when I say that a bear being plagued by a pack of dogs is a mad critter and quite dangerous. 00 buck fed us during these times. My wife will not eat wild animals until this day due to the fact that she was raised on them and can't stand them now. She will cook them for me but she had a "belly full and a bait" of wild food to last her the rest of her life.
Since there are better loads available nowadays, no problem with me that you use them. Back during the Great Depression, those old paper shelled 2.75" 00 buckshot did a good job. They worked so well that I am sure that the new fangled 3" 000 buck won't bounce off them.
jonboynumba1
Member
It's probably more of a "cheap dependable and they work" reason behind the shotguns...besides being quick in action. With the proper slug selection I'd bet they would do fine. I've heard many people also carry "bird bomb" rounds that basically shoot a loud firecrack to ward off bears that are not keeping their distance or acting to agressively. If I was really worried about it I might get a Marlin 1895 in .450 Marlin. Basically a hot as heck moder .45-70 type round....I owned a ported short carbine for a while...lot of kick but dang powerful and surprisingly accurate at 100 yards! One of the ones in the "I should have kept it" category. If you handload a .45-70 would do about as well with more common brass...and more likelyhood of finding a slightly used one cheap. I'd bet my life on Hornady's 350gr flat-nosed .450 Marlin though...dang hard hitting round and very sturdy bullet (they beefed up the .45-70 version for the .450 velocities)
Shell Shucker
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I think that hunting and self defence are two totally different scenarios.
When hunting you normally surprise the quarry. You can chose to "thread the needle" with a 243 or carry a 338 (my choice) "just in case".
In my mind a self defence scenario would be a surprise....... as in "Oh **** there's a bear (that I was unaware of) charging me from 20 yards or less!" In that situation I pick a 12 ga pump or auto. Being primarily a clay target shooter I'm very in-tuned at shooting a rapidly moving target (or two) at close range with a shotgun.
When hunting you normally surprise the quarry. You can chose to "thread the needle" with a 243 or carry a 338 (my choice) "just in case".
In my mind a self defence scenario would be a surprise....... as in "Oh **** there's a bear (that I was unaware of) charging me from 20 yards or less!" In that situation I pick a 12 ga pump or auto. Being primarily a clay target shooter I'm very in-tuned at shooting a rapidly moving target (or two) at close range with a shotgun.
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