Shotgun adequate for bear?

[fireflyfather]

i think that the best shot for a 12 gauge is eather a slug in a pump action or maybe 00 buck shot because if there is a bear running at you at 30 mph then you dont have much time to aim.

Buckshot has trouble stopping pitbulls sometimes, much less a bear. Buckshot is meant for deer and people. I'm sure you can take a bear with 00. You can take a deer with .22lr. I wouldn't want to bet my life on it, though. Hard slugs are going to penetrate a LOT better. Look at the difference between a 1 oz birdshot load and a 1 oz slug. The difference is that EACH PELLET/SLUG will have its own momentum. The bigger the individual projectile, the deeper it will penetrate, all other things being equal.

For bear defense, you are looking at probably a frontal shot into the skull or shoulders. Lots of very big bones in there. The bear might rear up on it's hind legs at the last moment, but by that time, you're already in grappling range...pretty dicey. Better to break down the shoulder before it gets to you. This is different than firing from surprise with a flank shot, or firing at a bear being harassed by dogs, with either a flank shot or while it's reared up going for the dogs (instead of you).

If it was me out in the sticks alone, and the weapon is purely for bear defense, it'd be a 12 gauge pump, with a large magazine full of slugs, maybe leading off with a 3" buckshot slug in the chamber.

ETA: If you're going to use buckshot, make sure it's plated, and a full powered load, none of this reduced recoil nonsense (that stuff is designed for 2 legged predators only).

 

[jonboynumba1]

The guy makes a good point about surprise....many accounts of bear attacks I've read (involving hunters) they tend to freeze up or just not have time to get to a long gun even when there is one on the horse of in the vehicle or on their shoulder. I think a lot of people in the far North seem to gravitate towards .44 (and up) SA revolvers and DA in some cases. I've been told they (SA revolvers) tend not to freeze up or rather have small parts bind and freeze up as much as their DA counterparts. They are generally less expensive (which would be my guess along with image as to popularity) I'm generally a semi-auto guy though I've owned several nice DA revolvers over the years. Lately I've been shooting the snot out of a Ruger Single six...I'me amazed how fast and handy and natural it handles and points. I believe a SA in a large caliber is not far around the corned for me...I had in mind just the role you are talking about if I ever go up North/out west. Plus they are just neat and I don't own one yet...so clearly I "need one"

I would think a HG would stand a much better chance of getting into use if a bear charged from out of nowhere....it would likely be right on me before I got off a shot. I'm a fat guy...we don't run very fast...hence I believe in carrying large-bore handguns all the time-LOL My 1911 would certainly come up short for that kinda thing. I'm realy between a .44 and a .45 right now on the decision. I have a Blackhawk .45Colt w/ .45acp cyl. at the shot 4 5/8 JUST like my single six. I believe (having owned and shot the snot out of a super blackhawk in .44 already) that Keith's classic 250gr 1200-1300 FPS loads are about right for a .44 So the modern loads in .45 colt are not hugely lagging the .44's and I already load and stock .45acp. But then I doubt I'd really shoot much acp through that gun...so maybe I need a .44. One day I'll make up my mind. I have brass and dies for the .44 already so I'm leaning that way. I really like that .45 we have though...I need to sell it before it follows me home and I end up with BOTH! :banghead:

Hopeless Gun Addict...with no recovery in sight.

PS- re above poster -I read a funny story one time about a guy up North (I think it was the labrador coast-Newfoundland) Was with an Indian off base. They startled a bear in a berry patch and it was not happy to see them. They shot it with a .22 singleshot (all they had) in the head and it went down like a brick. They went and got the Indians cousin or brother to help them drag the bear bacck to the road so they could come get it. Bear WAKES UP! (it was knocked out-LOL) whilst being dragged...again...it was not happy to see them. I think the Indians brother/cousin ended up killing it with his steel hatchet during what almost became a bear wrasslin' match. You just don't hear stories like that much anymore-LOL Makes you want a .44mag pocket gun!

 

[Fishman777]

Distances...

Keep in mind that a Bear that is 100 meters away probably is no threat unless it is stalking you. As many of you already know, Bears don't pay too much attention to people unless they feel that you are a threat to their young, or if you invade their personal space.

 

[Charles S]

I saw a 160 pound deer that was shot at 25 yards through the lungs with a 12 gauge slug and it ran over 100 yards at full speed after the shot before expiring.

Also, the Foster slug failed to exit the other side of the deer. This means that the slug dumped its entire energy in the deer and still didn't stop it.

Your experience and mine differ quite considerably. I hunted for a number of years in a shotgun only area and killed about 22 deer with slugs at ranges varying from 22 yards to 123 yards. Every deer I shot with slugs was DRT. I never tracked a single deer shot with a 12 ga slug. I never failed to have a great exit wound even from raking angles.

I second the fast handling 12 ga idea with Brenneke slugs.

I however had not had such stellar experience with buckshot. I would not trust buckshot unless I could select a hard buckshot (copper plated) and pattern in for my gun. I still would prefer slugs.

I really like the idea of the BLR (especially now that there is a take down version) in 325 Win Mag.

Of course if money is no object a Copilot from Wild West Guns would be awesome.

 

[Pete409]

Charles S,

As you said, your experience is different from mine. The deer I was referring to above is one that I personally shot, so I know the story to be true. However, I didn't tell you all of the story.

In addition to the broadside (first) shot that went through the lungs (but failed to penetrate the skin on the off side), I shot the deer 3 more times before he got out of sight. The second shot was a shot in the right flank. The third shot was a frontal shot in the chest as the deer angled toward me. And the fourth shot was a shot in the rear as he went away from me.

That's why I don't trust 12 gauge slugs to STOP dangerous game. I figure that if 4 slugs (2 of which were well placed) wouldn't drop a 160 pound deer, then they wouldn't have much chance on something much larger and stronger.

 

[336A]

I have posted this before but these are the last word in shot gun slug ammunition for dangerous game http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html. These are true hard cast heat treated slugs. Brennekke slugs while they are harder than your average lead slug, they are still relatively soft ( read as swaged NOT hard cast ) so they can be swaged down through a choke. If you are going to use a shot gun as defense from dangerous game then you owe it to yourself to use the best ammo you can get. This slug left quite an impression with the folks at the Linebaugh penetration seminar. It was by far the most devestating round shot. If you are serious about using your shot gun as a defensive weapon against the big bears you should give these a long hard look. Brennekke slugs will not touch these in the terminal performance areana period.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=121981

This is info from the John Linebaugh 2005 Penetration seminar with Dixie slugs.

Fellow Shooters,

This marks the second year for John Linebaughs Midwest Big Bore Seminar here in Carthage Illinois. As the host of this event I am still compiling the data into a useable format for John and for all our fellow shooters.

I called Mr Gates this evening with the results of his 12ga. Terminator slugs I shot at this event. The slugs I have are last years production around this time with the crimp groove and 740 grains wt.

The shotgun was:
Savage 210, fully rifled, bolt action with the 24 inch barrel.
Velocity: 1241 ave. 3 shots

Penetration in soaked wet newspaper stack:
Distance: 27"
Bullet condition was 100 %. Bullet penetrated straight and did not tip or yaw, nose forward. with the exception of the rifling marks, appeared undamaged and as though it could be reloaded.
Penetration in paper with bone:
( Stack contained 4" of paper, a Beef femur bone with knuckle, and more wet paper behind)
Distance: paper+ bone+ 13"
Bullet condition was approx 65 plus %. Bullet nose was damaged into the crimp groove.Bullet penetrated straight, did not tip or yaw, nose forward.

Observations: The wound channel in both tests were impressive, initally the size of a tomato paste can. As bullet slowed, wound channel reduced to over bullet size. The tramua area around the wound channel was "bruised" to a diameter significantlly larger. ( not measured)
When the bullet struck the bone in the second stack, it simply dissappeared with the exception of a 2 inch section at the top and a 3 inch section at the bottom. the middle 10 inches.... gone. Some of the bone shards were expelled from the stack to a distance of 50 ft from the test. The top 2" piece was ejected from the stack about 2 ft straight up. The display was most impressive.

I have not used this on game, but if the outcome is similar to the penetration tests, this should do admirably for the purpose for which it's designed.

I hope you will find this information helpful.

Thank you
Todd Corder

 

[obxned]

If I needed protection from the larger bears, I would use Brenneke Black Magic Magnums. Hard cast 600g. slugs at better than 1500fps.

http://www.brennekeusa.com/

 

[Wild Bill Kelso]

shotgun with slugs for bear medicine

I wouldn't be afraid to face-down any critter on the North American continent with a shotgun full of Brenneke classic magnum slugs.

I wouldn't go looking for trouble with a pissed-off brown bear, and you'd have to hold your shot to 50 yards or less - more like 25, as you don't want to miss.

But I firmly believe if the first round didn't drop him (or her) the second one would - and let's be realistic here, 'brer bear' gets the 'whole 9 yards'.

You empty the gun into the son of a bitch, then you reload berfore you go check if he (or she) is only playing possum'.

 

[Chris B]

Before venturing in to the barren landscape of Canada's Baffin Island, one must watch a video on bear safety at the Park Services office. The video contains an interview with an Inuit gentleman who survived TWO seperate polar bear attacks. He survived by sidestepping the bears charge, striking its head with a rock, and fighting vigorously with the bear. He reccomended holding your arm in front of you, elbow bent 90 degrees, forearm held vertically. His reasoning is that bears will supposedly not turn their head to bite and your forearm will not fit in their mouth. The bears he fought had killed others but he survived and he was not an exceptionally large person, just kind of a skinny old man. Both bears he encountered were later dispatched with 12 guage slugs.

As others have said, situational awareness and solid camping practices are your best defense against bears. Bear bags should always be hung, far from your camp, if you are near trees. In treeless arctic and desert environments your kitchen and food should be stored at least 100 yards from your tent.

 

[Cosmoline]

Yes, but you should avoid foster slugs or buckshot. These are designed for deer. Everyone I know up here who totes a shotgun prefers the Brenneke hardcast magnums. They're considerably more powerful than a deer slug and will penetrate like nobody's business. Inside of 50 yards they're brown bear medicine. The troopers and F&G use them and have many large brown bear have been shot and killed with them.

He reccomended holding your arm in front of you, elbow bent 90 degrees, forearm held vertically. His reasoning is that bears will supposedly not turn their head to bite and your forearm will not fit in their mouth.

Ah, I've seen the post-attack trooper photos of an unfortunate victim on the slope from a few years back. He fought back, but the bear simply tore his arms clean off at the shoulder like a dog would yank a toy doll's arms off. Ditto with Tim Treadwell and a lot of others. Polar bear are odd ducks, so maybe they won't bite your arms off. But I wouldn't bet on it if I had a choice! It's like the old idea that if you put a pot on your head in Africa the lion will think you're too tall to eat.

 

[336A]

Sorry guys but Brennekke slugs are not hard cast slugs they are swaged, but they are harder than the average slug. Otherwise the Black magic slug would not be rated for any barrel. The only true heat treated hard cast slug is the Dixie Terminator, Express, Predator, and X-terminator. The results posted above speak for themselves in regards to the devastating effectivness of these slugs.