Zach S
Member
I'm assuming you meant to put "or" instead of "of."
Don't count on that, as #6 patterns out of my 590 at that distance are about the size of a soccerball...
Federal LE132 00 and commercial H132 00 pattern much better, at 25 yards.
Shotgun for defense? Maybe not.
- Thread starter Dfence
- Start date
- Status
Don't count on that, as #6 patterns out of my 590 at that distance are about the size of a soccerball...
Federal LE132 00 and commercial H132 00 pattern much better, at 25 yards.
kingcheese
Member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2008
- Messages
- 677
the way i see it, if the longest distance your gonna be shooting from is around 10 feet, use bird shot, or buck shot, if its more only use buck shot
the reason i say that is the typical spread rate for a shotgun is around 1 inch spread for every foot travled
so if you have a 10 inch spread of little pellets, traveling near muzzle velociety, it otta tear up any soft target
its kinda be like dropping a man organs into a blender, at least thats what it would look like
the reason i say that is the typical spread rate for a shotgun is around 1 inch spread for every foot travled
so if you have a 10 inch spread of little pellets, traveling near muzzle velociety, it otta tear up any soft target
its kinda be like dropping a man organs into a blender, at least thats what it would look like
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Birdshot may work under circumstances where it's favored, but it's not like the cost of buckshot is so astronomical as to be unaffordable.
If buckshot is so clearly better (and it is) why would you run the risk of hamstringing yourself by loading your weapon with birdshot?
It just makes absolutely no sense.
If buckshot is so clearly better (and it is) why would you run the risk of hamstringing yourself by loading your weapon with birdshot?
It just makes absolutely no sense.
leadcounsel
member
It's been said that the shotgun is the best and most versatile weapon a civilian can own. Pretty cool that they are easy to find, get ammo for, and inexpensive. I've bought them in great condition as low as $115!!! 
Never paid more than say $400 for a shotty either. And I have some awesome shotguns - mainstream as they are, they will certainly do the job.
www.theboxotruth.com did a test of ammo payload from various shotguns/types of ammo.
Buckshot was the best for home defense. I think it was 00, but that's going off memory.
Birdshot is for the birds. Had very minimal penetration. Inadequate for reliable self defense. Some people don't think about the need to end and attack NOW, not "make him reconsider." I've heard many accounts where attackers or subjects fight through immense pain of being shot, tasered, tear gas, OC spray, etc.
Additionally, what if the attacker is ALSO armed? Say HE has a shotgun with buckshot. Now your decision for a less powerful performer may be a big mistake. Or what if there are multiple attackers and you are shooting and just wounding them? Maybe you'd like to be a defendant to a civil suit brought on by the blinded and disfirgured man who claims to have broken in to your home by accident or to feed his 10 kids. Not me.
If it's my defense, I put 00 buck in (or in certain circumstances like camping - slugs). The combination of penetration and wound channels and massive tissue damage gives the best chance of ending an attack the fastest.
Never paid more than say $400 for a shotty either. And I have some awesome shotguns - mainstream as they are, they will certainly do the job. www.theboxotruth.com did a test of ammo payload from various shotguns/types of ammo.
Buckshot was the best for home defense. I think it was 00, but that's going off memory.
Birdshot is for the birds. Had very minimal penetration. Inadequate for reliable self defense. Some people don't think about the need to end and attack NOW, not "make him reconsider." I've heard many accounts where attackers or subjects fight through immense pain of being shot, tasered, tear gas, OC spray, etc.
Additionally, what if the attacker is ALSO armed? Say HE has a shotgun with buckshot. Now your decision for a less powerful performer may be a big mistake. Or what if there are multiple attackers and you are shooting and just wounding them? Maybe you'd like to be a defendant to a civil suit brought on by the blinded and disfirgured man who claims to have broken in to your home by accident or to feed his 10 kids. Not me.
If it's my defense, I put 00 buck in (or in certain circumstances like camping - slugs). The combination of penetration and wound channels and massive tissue damage gives the best chance of ending an attack the fastest.
I agree Justin if one walked into Wal-Mart and grabbed a box of #6 instead of the five pack box of Buck sitting next to it for home defense then I would readily agree that person truely needs to be educated about shotgun ammo.
On the otherhand at 3:15 a.m. if a person suddenly realized that his home space was being invaded and slammed a round or three of #6 into his 12 or 20 gauge and had to start shooting at the distance that a great number of home designs limit,which in my particular home that longest distance would be 21 feet or 7 yards,and that is only in one place,the other areas maybe half that distance,then the receipent of the intended shot would be in very,very bad shape if not already dead when he hit the floor.
This statement is not directed at you Justin but sometimes I get the impression that a group of people read that this or that gun scribe says so and so and it's like it's carved into stone on that reading alone.
Having hunted for over 45 years I know how devastating and lethal a shotgun can be at the right distance.
On the otherhand at 3:15 a.m. if a person suddenly realized that his home space was being invaded and slammed a round or three of #6 into his 12 or 20 gauge and had to start shooting at the distance that a great number of home designs limit,which in my particular home that longest distance would be 21 feet or 7 yards,and that is only in one place,the other areas maybe half that distance,then the receipent of the intended shot would be in very,very bad shape if not already dead when he hit the floor.
This statement is not directed at you Justin but sometimes I get the impression that a group of people read that this or that gun scribe says so and so and it's like it's carved into stone on that reading alone.
Having hunted for over 45 years I know how devastating and lethal a shotgun can be at the right distance.
If birdshot is for birds, what is buckshot for? Deer?
As to my phonebook test with #6, I shot at it from about 5 feet away. My shotgun puts a "rathole" in pretty much anything up to 10', and then the shot spreads out at distances beyond that. I was just surprised that even the rathole didn't penetrate much into the phonebook. I figured a rathole indicated that alll the shot was still in the shot cup and would act as one projectile and be able to penetrate deeply.
As to my phonebook test with #6, I shot at it from about 5 feet away. My shotgun puts a "rathole" in pretty much anything up to 10', and then the shot spreads out at distances beyond that. I was just surprised that even the rathole didn't penetrate much into the phonebook. I figured a rathole indicated that alll the shot was still in the shot cup and would act as one projectile and be able to penetrate deeply.
kingcheese
Member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2008
- Messages
- 677
just me, but my guns are never loaded unless im gonna shoot it right then, i store ammo i use, i got buckshot lying around, but... i also got more bird shot lying around, so bird shot IS for birds, whos to say it can't/wont stop a human being
i have a side by side, if i hade the time i would put 00 in one barrel and 6 loads in the other
im sure all you guys have done numerous test on human beings to prove that bird shot wouldnt stop a human being? right? or is just something you have been handed and taken it to be fact?
forindooruseonly
Member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2009
- Messages
- 1,076
I only know personally of one HD shooting instance with birdshot. As an acquaintance of mine told me, he and his wife came home to find an intruder waiting in their bedroom. He struggled with the man while he told his wife to get the shotgun, and she returned with his Winchester Model 12 skeet gun loaded with the only shells she could find - low brass #8 shot range loads. He managed to shoot the intruder twice at close range in the chest, and then proceeded to bend the barrel over the intruders head in order to finally stop him. The intruder bled out and died on the way to the hospital.
I don't think a more powerful birdshot shell would have made much difference. The intruder was a bigger, heavyset guy and while the birdshot apparently made for an impressive fat removal tool, it did little to the vitals, leaving the guy functioning and very pissed off, despite bleeding badly.
Spend the 10 bucks and buy some buckshot - OO has been the standard for ages for good reason. Saying a shotgun is a poor tool for the job because you can't be bothered to put the right ammunition in it doesn't make much sense.
He also said it ruined the Winchester. He claimed it never shot the same after the new barrel was installed.
I don't think a more powerful birdshot shell would have made much difference. The intruder was a bigger, heavyset guy and while the birdshot apparently made for an impressive fat removal tool, it did little to the vitals, leaving the guy functioning and very pissed off, despite bleeding badly.
Spend the 10 bucks and buy some buckshot - OO has been the standard for ages for good reason. Saying a shotgun is a poor tool for the job because you can't be bothered to put the right ammunition in it doesn't make much sense.
He also said it ruined the Winchester. He claimed it never shot the same after the new barrel was installed.
Mike1234567
member
Like others said... #4 buck minimum followed by 00 or 000 or slugs.
leadcounsel
member
With that logic, then heck, why not use a pellet gun or throw forks at them?
Look, some folks REFUSE to see the facts that have been proven in simulations and gel testing time and again. Birdshot simply does not carry the weight or kinetic energy for effective reliable self defense. Sure it looks devestating when you shoot a piece of paper or a pumpkin. But a human, possibly wearing heavy clothing, moving, on drugs, motiviated, armed, etc. is a whole different story...
As someone else said, why do folks persist on hamstringing themselves and insist on using an inferior tool when a better one is entirely available???
Again, let's not ignore that while birdshot is certainly better than nothing, and *might* get the job done, why not just use a superior item?
I think of an attacker about the same size and toughness as a deer. Birdshot would be wholey ineffective at self defense. Sure, the person might bleed out an hour later, but he could theoritically keep coming at you. The buckshot will have immediate stopping power (or near immediate).
You wouldn't use birdshot on a deer?
The only HD shotgun I have ever owned was a Mossberg 500 12 gauge, 18" cylinder bore barrel.
At 25 yards it would spread out to like two feet with anything other than Federal buckshot loads. 00 and #4 buck were useable but the stuff with the flight control wad was the best. Other loads just spread like hell.
Long story short - there is no way I would have trusted bird shot in that gun.
And to those who "have a lot of bird shot around", put the bird shot in the gun cabinet unless you're hunting and keep some 00 where you can get at it quickly. Don't argue that birdshot is effective and act like it's good enough. We know that buck shot is, so just buy a box and be well protected. Simple.
Point of fact, my grandfather did use birdshot on a deer once. It was during the depression and when the chance to get meat presented itself, legal or not, you took it.
Anyhow, it took him something like twenty rounds of #6 to kill it. He didn't think it would be so ineffective. Wasting ammunition was something they couldn't afford to do, but one he had wounded the deer he had to continue pursuing it and see it through until he had finished it off. Anyhow, I agree with you.
Come on people - just use the buck shot. It's not that difficult. What is a box of 12 gauge 00 these days? Like six bucks for five shots? Why would you not get some when it's that cheap and so much more effective?
At 25 yards it would spread out to like two feet with anything other than Federal buckshot loads. 00 and #4 buck were useable but the stuff with the flight control wad was the best. Other loads just spread like hell.
Long story short - there is no way I would have trusted bird shot in that gun.
And to those who "have a lot of bird shot around", put the bird shot in the gun cabinet unless you're hunting and keep some 00 where you can get at it quickly. Don't argue that birdshot is effective and act like it's good enough. We know that buck shot is, so just buy a box and be well protected. Simple.
leadcounsel said:
Point of fact, my grandfather did use birdshot on a deer once. It was during the depression and when the chance to get meat presented itself, legal or not, you took it.
Anyhow, it took him something like twenty rounds of #6 to kill it. He didn't think it would be so ineffective. Wasting ammunition was something they couldn't afford to do, but one he had wounded the deer he had to continue pursuing it and see it through until he had finished it off. Anyhow, I agree with you.
Come on people - just use the buck shot. It's not that difficult. What is a box of 12 gauge 00 these days? Like six bucks for five shots? Why would you not get some when it's that cheap and so much more effective?
Last edited:
towboat_er
Member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2011
- Messages
- 889
I wouldn't load my 45 with snake shot for home defense.
Get the buckshot.
Get the buckshot.
Sunray
Member
"...It barely penetrated..." Not surprising. Number 6's are for killing light skinned game. Try the thing with Number 2's or bigger.
SeekHer
Member
Actually, in the old days that's what it was used for--thing is, those states that allow shotguns or they're mandatory for big game hunting (Animals with an actual season) mostly don't allow buckshot to be used for the taking of game animals, just slugs.
Wild Boar/feral pigs are not game animals in the vast majority of states that have them--they're considered vermin, pests, feral and you can kill them to your hearts content.
Your phone book test, while a good indicator of penetration of bullets is a poor gauge for pellets due to the density of the paper that's compressed...Try finding some ballistic gel--which emulates human tissue--and shoot into that or just get the reports online because the stuff is damn expensive.
When you look at the spread from the front, you'll notice that the pellets are still angling outwards even after hitting the medium which is why shotshells are so devastating as long as they can get the penetration...You have to sever veins and rupture arteries, destroy organs, cause a massive shock to the central nervous system, hopefully disrupting the cardio/pulmonary system with massive blood loss shuting down the extremities and fogging up the brain as well and for that you require energy and mass to get the penetration.
Yes but a super magnum goose load of 1¾ oz of #2 over 4½ Drams of powder at around 1750 fps at 5 to 7 yds will blow the malcontent to Hell--That's 820 gr at 1,750 fps...Even if you just had a 2¾" shell with 1½ oz over 3¾ drams at 1,275 fps that's still a 765 gr.
Corrected typo, thank you for pointing it out.
We never talked about #6 but at 5 yds whether you shoot #12, #6, #BB or #00 buck your spread will about 6" to 7"--just a little bigger then a softball, even with spreader shotshells and spreader choke...The pellets will have just started leaving the shot cup at about 3'/1 yd and the spread out of a cylinder bore would be at 10 yds is about 20"..Those pellets have to fit a circumference of 62.83" with an area of 314.16 inch² so the mass and energy is dissipated from all those pellets over a broad area which means penetration is hindered unless you begin with a greater mass per pellet.
The problem with with increased mass is that it decreases the number of pellets in the husk which means that less pellets are available to hit the target within such a large area...To compensate for this my Rossi Coach Gun with 24" barrel are choked Mod (L) and Imp Mod (R).
I've been experimenting with what Elmer Keith called duplex loads for about fifty years now--two different sized shot in the same husk...The ones that I've found that work good are #4 buck/#2 bird, #2/#BB, #2/#T--my P/HD load, #F/#2--excellent coyote/feral dog chicken raider load, #000/#T, #000/#B and a favourite for goose hunting (pass shooting) out of a 3½" 10 bore Ithaca Mag 10 is #BBB/#2.
I am in no way advocating the use of smaller birdshot for P/HD just don't lump #BBs and #2s in with them as they will kill, I've seen it first hand within range so if that's all you've got then it's the greatest thing since sliced bread...If you have the fortune to be able to acquire larger pellets then please do so.
#00 (.330/9 to oz) is not the best of the crop nor is it the biggest--#000 (.360/6 to oz) and #0000 (.380/3.5), just the one that offered the military the best overall performance within 25 yds, cost and effect wise...The FBI advocate the use of #2 (.270/13) buck but I prefer #4 (240/20) and even better still--but you have to handload it--is #F (.220/28) or #TT (.210/30)...The extra pellets aid in hitting the target yet still offer mass and velocity.
Last edited:
oerllikon
Member
I probably wouldnt like to be shot with birdshot, personally. If its winter and the possible assailant is wearing a winter coat, carhartt jacket, etc then Id probably load 00 buck. With a full choke on my 500 I can shoot a ragged hole about 6" in diameter with 4 shots (I think) at 15 yds. I dont think that the pellets would instantly stop upon hitting a t shirt or sweatshirt, but I thought it was pretty impressive. If I were in an apartment complex, id probably load bird shot or light buck for over penetration issues. IMHO
Buck shot would probably be ideal in general
Buck shot would probably be ideal in general
Youngster
Member
My experience and that of others suggests to not trust even #4 buckshot {beyond a few yards distance} for defense let alone any kind of birdshot.
RickMD
Member
"...the typical spread rate for a shotgun is around 1 inch spread for every foot travled".
I think you meant yard traveled...
I think you meant yard traveled...
KodiakBeer
member
This is all kind of silly.
Take a box of standard 2 3/4 inch 00 Buck and shoot something like a 1 inch board at 10 yards. Nine .33 caliber balls are going to come out of your barrel at 1250 feet per second and hit the object within a few inches of each other. Examine the target.
Now, shoot a similar object with bird shot and examine the target.
Now, go buy some more 00 Buck and load your home defense gun with it.
Take a box of standard 2 3/4 inch 00 Buck and shoot something like a 1 inch board at 10 yards. Nine .33 caliber balls are going to come out of your barrel at 1250 feet per second and hit the object within a few inches of each other. Examine the target.
Now, shoot a similar object with bird shot and examine the target.
Now, go buy some more 00 Buck and load your home defense gun with it.
Back in the 1960s, my dad had to go out on a call to pick up a stiff. The gentleman had been dating a divorced woman. Her ex husband objected with a 12 gauge and birdshot. He went to where the man worked, which was a gas station. The man was carrying a case of motor oil (which was in cans at the time). The first barrel got rid of the cans of oil and the second barrel shredded the man's internal organs, killing him on the spot. The killer was within 15 feet of the victim when he shot him.
Remember, at close range, the shot load will travel and hit as a solid mass, scattering inside the body cavity. The Box O'Truth is good, but it doesn't tell you what projectiles will do to bodies.
Plus, the FBI minimum penetration requirements are for service loads that must be able to penetrate light cover and still penetrate a body. You don't need anywhere near 12 inches of penetration to shred a human's internal organs.
The Box O'Opinion is based on the FBI requirements, not on real life average citizen self defense requirements.
Number 4 is the smallest shot I'd use for home defense. 00 buck is fantastic but poses a very high overpenetration risk in a house.
unless you live in a mansion, the actual range at which you'll shoot someone to defend your home is going to be very short.
Ultimately, it's up to the individual to determine their best choice for self defense.
I really don't care what any of you use to protect yourselves. I care what I use to protect my family.
My 590 is full of 00 buck. My coach gun is loaded with the Aguila mini buckshot duplex load, With a box of Centurion 2" 00 buck close by.
Then, there's my Taurus Judge loaded with Federal pistol loads of 000 and #4.
If that fails, the GP100 with 125gr HP and EAA single action .45 LC should do the trick. If not, there's the Charter Bulldog .44 Special loaded with Speer Gold Dot HPs, and finally, the Pedersoli Howdah Pistol 20 gauge loaded with buck and ball loads consisting of a single .61 caliber PRB under #4 buck in each barrel. The buck and ball Howdah projectiles are cast from wheelweights, for extra hardness, compared to pure lead.
If that fails, I'll pull a Massachusetts and jump out the window/run away.
With any luck, I'll never have to shoot anyone.
BTW, my wife's late father killed her mother and then himself on the day their divorce was finalized. Guess what he used. Yep, 12 gauge birdshot.
Not my first choice for protection, but not to be taken lightly, either.
Remember, at close range, the shot load will travel and hit as a solid mass, scattering inside the body cavity. The Box O'Truth is good, but it doesn't tell you what projectiles will do to bodies.
Plus, the FBI minimum penetration requirements are for service loads that must be able to penetrate light cover and still penetrate a body. You don't need anywhere near 12 inches of penetration to shred a human's internal organs.
The Box O'Opinion is based on the FBI requirements, not on real life average citizen self defense requirements.
Number 4 is the smallest shot I'd use for home defense. 00 buck is fantastic but poses a very high overpenetration risk in a house.
unless you live in a mansion, the actual range at which you'll shoot someone to defend your home is going to be very short.
Ultimately, it's up to the individual to determine their best choice for self defense.
I really don't care what any of you use to protect yourselves. I care what I use to protect my family.
My 590 is full of 00 buck. My coach gun is loaded with the Aguila mini buckshot duplex load, With a box of Centurion 2" 00 buck close by.
Then, there's my Taurus Judge loaded with Federal pistol loads of 000 and #4.
If that fails, the GP100 with 125gr HP and EAA single action .45 LC should do the trick. If not, there's the Charter Bulldog .44 Special loaded with Speer Gold Dot HPs, and finally, the Pedersoli Howdah Pistol 20 gauge loaded with buck and ball loads consisting of a single .61 caliber PRB under #4 buck in each barrel. The buck and ball Howdah projectiles are cast from wheelweights, for extra hardness, compared to pure lead.
If that fails, I'll pull a Massachusetts and jump out the window/run away.
With any luck, I'll never have to shoot anyone.
BTW, my wife's late father killed her mother and then himself on the day their divorce was finalized. Guess what he used. Yep, 12 gauge birdshot.
Not my first choice for protection, but not to be taken lightly, either.
ObsidianOne
Member
Definitely, DEFINITELY reccomend 00 Buck, 3" magnums if your shotgun can take them.
Also, check this out:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
Also, check this out:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
Mike1234567
member
I've seen countless tests that, when viewed as a whole, essentially eliminate anything smaller than #4 as "viable" for the "average" HD situation and show #00, #000, #0000, and slugs as far superior. Yes, one must weigh "effectiveness" against "overpenetration". This is why my first two rounds are #4 buck and all remaining are #00. If I can't stop the threat(s) with two shots of #4 then I'm escalating my firepower. Anyone who refuses to do their research and continue to simply argue the point with no solid evidence... I'm not listening because I DID my research.
KodiakBeer
member
Yeah, I wouldn't question the choice of anything from #4 Buck on up at home defense ranges. 00 is the old standard, but at these ranges even #4 Buck should make a mess and give all the penetration required.
I recall an incident as a teenager when duck hunting along a small slough. A deer popped up no more than ten or twelve yards away. An older man (who should have known better) let that deer have it in the face with a duck load - probably #4 lead birdshot back in those days - and that deer ran away. We tracked it for a long way and never found it. It made me sick then and it makes me sick thinking about it now. I'm sure the deer died, but not that day.
Anyway, I wouldn't consider using birdshot of any kind as a defense load.
I recall an incident as a teenager when duck hunting along a small slough. A deer popped up no more than ten or twelve yards away. An older man (who should have known better) let that deer have it in the face with a duck load - probably #4 lead birdshot back in those days - and that deer ran away. We tracked it for a long way and never found it. It made me sick then and it makes me sick thinking about it now. I'm sure the deer died, but not that day.
Anyway, I wouldn't consider using birdshot of any kind as a defense load.
- Status
