Shotgun no good for HD?

[shockwave]

This is a response to a comment in one of the SG for HD threads going on. In it, the writer says that he doesn't like shotguns for home defense because if it's dark, he wants one hand holding a pistol and the other hand holding a flashlight. The thinking is that having to use both hands for the shotgun is a demerit.

Well, we know that there are a variety of tactical flashlights and lasers that can mount to a shotgun barrel or forend or picatinny rail. But as a purist, a sidesaddle and sling are the only modifications I can live with. The 500 is a basic gun and doesn't need to be any heavier.

And, a light mounted to a shotgun gives the other fellow a lot of information about you and your weapon. So from a tactical perspective, I'm not sold on the concept (no disrespect to those who disagree). My thinking is that the Browning Tactical Hunter Flashlight is in itself a weapon as the 210 lumens are in the blinding range.

So my thinking is to grab the shotgun, rack a shell, then use the light in the left hand also supporting the forend, and if I acquire a target, fire - drop light - fire and use the muzzle flash for lighting in addition to the light on the ground. Thoughts?

 

[Al LaVodka]

Thoughts? Not clear or complete thinking if I may say -- old at best and inexperienced at least.

Of course it is silly for someone to generally argue that a pistol is better for home defense as a shotgun is probably preferable at closer ranges for darned-near most foreseeable applications. But, of course, as a home defense arm one must admit that there is a strong possibility if not a liklihood that you'll be responding to something that goes bump in the night. Accordingly, you'll want a light.

In this regard, as you've traded one-handed shooting for whatever superiorities a shotgun may offer, and it takes two committed hands to handle (and please don't argue this -- it is a given), it is ideal to attach a light to your shotgun. One with a pressure switch so you can turn it on and off at will, tactically. And we are lucky that there are some decent products out there to help us in this. I think the micro-sized, extra-bright, super-overpriced LED's are a fad, but, again, there are options.

Al

 

[BK]

Use the muzzle flash for lighting? Can you fire a shotgun without blinking? If so, don't you think the muzzle flash might be a bit blinding itself?

I think there is more than one way to skin a cat, and what works for you might not work for others, and what works for me will certainly not work for everyone else. You might want to train after dark with a few different methods. It'll be easier to pick a method that way.

 

[Mossberg88]

I agree with both opinions. However, in the police academy it is taught that (provided the officer's discretion) when clearing a house/room/whathaveyou, to put the hand with the flashlight under and out to the side of the hand holding the weapon. The thought is, an assailant in the dark will shoot at the light which, if done properly will be far enough to the side from one's own critical mass.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Thoughts? No one I know of teaches or suggests that technique.

Get some good defensive shotgun training which includes a night shoot. Any good instructor will teach several practical alternatives in using both shotgun and flashlight effectively in low light, to include weaponlights attached to the shotgun.

Failing that, try something like Clint Smith's defensive shotgun video- http://www.gunsmagazine.com/webblastTRDS.html . Then you can work on some of the alternatives on your own. Use what works for you, once you have a sufficient database of experience to draw from.

fwiw,

lpl

 

[arizona98tj]

Shockwave.....Lee nailed it very well and his advice is very good.

I've taken about 60 hours of shotgun training that have included two night shoots. As Lee said, no one teaches dropping your light.....if you did that at the courses I attend, they would call a cease fire and ask that you pick it up. Dropping your light on purpose is in so many ways so wrong. How do you ascertain your target? Did you hit the bad guy.....is he leveling a gun at you to shoot back? What about multiple threats? Bad guys are known to bring a friend. Assuming you are using a light that has a click on/click off switch (you must be if you are relying on it to continue putting out light once it is down), what happens when the light drops on the floor and is now pointing at you? :banghead:

As for the 210 lumen light being a weapon unto itself.....I believe that if you do a little research, you might very well find that 80~120 lumens, inside of a room, is about all you want to use. Levels higher than that can cause so much splash back from windows, walls, ceilings, reflective objects, etc. that you will be working against yourself and the ability to see well. Keep those high lumen lights for outdoor use or larger buildings.

Get some training, training, and training......and then practice what you learned, often.....and then get some refresher training....and keep practicing. Gun handling skills are perishable.

 

[Al LaVodka]

I know, in fact, that some training not too far off is not unheard of...

NYPD, largest police force in the country and larger than almost any nation's army, certainly taught the cross-handed/backwards-held flashlight pistol hold as well as flashlights held to the side, using Maglights to "flash" a picture to then move it to other locations as well as to use them offensively to focus blinding light as well as to beat a target with the supplemental brass-weighted endcap of their main long flashlight! They often proposed carrying two lights -- I know one officer who captured a group singlehandedly by shining a light that he'd placed on the ground, announcing himself and warning the criminals to freeze or he'd shoot, and then quickly coming up BEHIND the unsuspecting perps, gun and main flashlight in hand...

Just one story. I certainly wouldn't recommend dropping one's (I-refuse-to-call-them-tactical) light as part of a strategy -- lol.

Al

 

[shockwave]

Thank you for the replies, gentlemen. I really wanted to hear some expert thinking on this, as there are many variables and strategies - taking a course will probably resolve a lot of open questions.

 

[Army of Don]

Unless you live alone and have no friends or family, the first priority in any nighttime home defense situation should be identification. Flashlights are far more effective at identification than shotguns. It is your moral, ethical, and often legal responsibility to identify your target before shooting (or at least to identify what it's not, i.e. friendlies).

If you hear something go bump/crash in the night, my recommendation is to grab your flashlight first, activate it, then grab a firearm. Keep the flashlight up and the firearm down until you have identified a hostile target. Turn on room lights as you progress thru the house until every light is on and the source of the noise has been identified; a flashlight should not be your primary means of illumination unless there are no other lights in the room.

If a shotgun is too unwieldy for you in this situation, you should probably consider a pistol. No one would argue that a pistol is a MORE effective weapon, but a pistol is still an effective weapon. The larger issue is that your choice of weapon is only one part of the equation, and not even the most important part at that: you MUST be able to identify your target first. A pistol in one hand with flashlight in the other is probably more effective at this than a shotgun for most people. Your mileage may vary. Weapon-mounted lights would also work as long as you keep in mind that you may end up pointing a loaded weapon at something you aren't willing to destroy, violating NRA Rule #1.

Obviously during the day time identification is much easier, so a shotgun would seem prudent as it is the most effective weapon should you encounter a hostile person.

My 2 cents.

 

[RDCL]

No home should be so dark at night that you'd need a flashlight to see. Even while sleeping. Just my opinion because that's how I live personally. All my flashlights are strictly for power outs. It's not JUST a security measure either. I just don't want to have to fumble my way to a light switch if I need a snack in the middle of the night.

That being said.....a shotgun is hard to beat as home defense.


Russ

 

[Fred Fuller]

Want to hear some real expert thinking? Then listen to Louis Awerbuck, Randy Cain, Clint Smith, John Farnam, Tom Givens, Mas Ayoob or any of the many genuine experts out there teaching the defensive shotgun. See http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=396584 for an (in progress) list of trainers and schools, there are other lists in other places if you want to look.

hth,

lpl

 

[MCgunner]

I live next door to a well lit car wash. I don't worry about light, but there's plenty enough for a shotgun. I'd need to point shoot my handguns, but I'm well practiced at it and ranges are short in my little house. I have both next to the bed. If I have to leave the room, I usually take the .38 because it's easier to stash in a pocket if it turns out to be a cop at the door, which it was, once. So, he wakes me up to tell me to keep the doors locked. Heck, I'm cocked and locked.

 

[FLNT4EVR]

scrap the light, it only gives the intruder something to shoot at. You know your own home like no one else .That gives you the advantage.I never have my house completely dark .Ther is always a night light on somewhere, usualy in the kitchen, but it is enough.A short handy shotgun is just what you need . who's going to stay and fight after the first person goes down? No one I can think of.

 

[RUT]

>>scrap the light, it only gives the intruder something to shoot at<<

My thoughts exactly!!

 

[Zerodefect]

Use what works for you. My Ar or shotty never has a light on it. I don't plan on shooting anyone in the dark that isn't an obvious threat. Err towards NOT shooting.

My Surefire E2D is allways nearby or a G2. I just flash the room and move on. Never flash more than a split second. Your brain will "see" the whole room. Don't wander around with your light on when you have plenty of nightlights or moon.

Play woods paintball at night. You'll learn alot.

A friend of mine has flood lights on the outside of his house that he can control with a remote. Bright blinding flood lights. He also has them aiming down his stairs. Everyone sleeps upstairs.

If your at the bottom of the stairs and look up, you can't tell that your in the sights of a 590a1. You can't see anything but blinding light. LOLz. An interesting tactic of useing your house to your advantage. If a bit.....paranoid.


When your prepared and properly trained, any gun you grab should be OK for defense. My shotgun is too heavy and slow. it's a bit overkill as well. I'd only go for my Ar or shotty if I have time to grab them, threat is outside.

Otherwise my 1911 or glock23 are more practical and allready in the nightstand. My FN PS90 has a Surefire G2 mounted on it thats quick for clearing rooms.

 

[MCgunner]

Paintball? I'm old. If I'm going to do any shooting sports at night, it'll be sitting in my stand waiting on the hogs to come out.

 

[DougW]

Night lights on the Glock 17, Mossberg Maverick, M4'gery. I had to clear the house one night two handed (light in one hand, pistol in the other) and I determined that having both hands full sucks, unless they are both on a long gun.

 

[Moose23]

Lots of good info in these posts, especially ones about IDENTIFYING your target before you shoot anything, also keeping some sort of nightlight on all the time.

Something else to consider: If you're "protecting" your family, maybe consider using that shotgun with #8's instead of buck or slugs. If you're shooting inside your house, ranges will be less than 20 feet. 8's make a big messy hole in someone at that range, but lose kinetic energy quickly when going through something substantial. Something, say like a perp or a wall.

What's on the other side of that perp or that wall? The rest of your family. I don't want my family member injured by a miss or thru & thru.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

there is a strong possibility if not a liklihood that you'll be responding to something that goes bump in the night. Accordingly, you'll want a light.

If I have reason to believe the noise is caused by human activity then my threat indentification process includes verbal commands, from a position of advantage.

WHO'S THERE! WHAT ARE YOU DOING!
(no response?)
WHO'S THERE! I HAVE A GUN! I'VE CALLED POLICE! LEAVE NOW!

I have a Remington 870 fitted with a Surefire WeaponLight. My plan is to use it for static defense of my bedroom, but I also train to use it for clearing. If I feel the need to investigate the house I have a weapon mounted Streamlight on my Glock 19.

There are no light switches near the master bedroom door that control any lights out in the common areas of the home. We have undercabinet LED lighting in the kitchen, which we turn on for a night light. I also have a couple of night lights placed strategically around the house.

I have a dog, which, when she's awake, doesn't take too kindly to strangers. But as she's aged she falls into a deep, snoring sleep. My car was burgled one night and she didn't stir, despite sleeping by a front window.

 

[JShirley]

If you're "protecting" your family, maybe consider using that shotgun with #8's instead of buck or slugs.

Horrible advice. Any firearm may do the job, but handicapping yourself deliberately is just silly.

I prefer a carbine for HD, but a good shotgun you're familiar with works fine, too. The big advantage, IMO, is for those who shoot lots of shotgun hunting or in other shooting sports. If it's what you instinctively use best, use it in good health.

Birdshot is for birds. Birdshot is for birds. Birdshot is for birds. Sheetrock is NOT "substantial", and if you're shooting something you expect to be stopped by sheetrock, it's not likely to do a lot of good when it hits an attacker.

I wouldn't choose to use any shot size less than BB for defense under any circumstances, and even then, I'd expect a hell of a mess and probably a living home intruder that, depending on the state, might be able to sue me later. Thank god for the states that don't allow those injured in the commission of a felony to sue!

John

 

[Gideon]

small confined areas that you "have" to go into may be better handled with a pistol and light. If you have more room a shotgun excells. Muzzle blast doesn't do anything but give away a soldiers general postion to the enemy or ruin night vision.

In my house my kids (6) are spread out throughout the house, upstairs and down, therefore, I don't have the option to hole up in the master bedroom and call 911. Depending on the "noice" i HAVE to go check on them and I have small hallways and many corners so a pistol and light is good. For holding up in a safe room (the very best option if you can work it out) or in large roomy homes, a shotgun is excellent and a few LED night lights around the house in good locations provides sufficient light.

An On-board light is also viable on a longgun but depending on the mount, your arm length, the gun, etc. it may be you have to click it on and leave it on.

On my Shottie, I have to put it on and get my grip back where I need it. So my light is on and yes, a hiding bad guy sees you coming. But they see the light you hold with a pistol too and the idea of holding the light out to the side is valid for LEO's clearing buildings on a regular basis with training but you and me friend will be just "looking". That's why clearing a house is so dangerous because the person hiding in the dark while you look for them has all of the advantage.

best thing is to devise a plan that lets everyone stay in, or get to a safe room where you can cover the door with a shotgun and call 911.

Hard part about that is properly securing a shotgun or any gun, in that room in a way that keeps it safe but easily accessible.

I tend to put more effort into the gun than the plan which is all backwards. I'm trying to change that

Personally I think a simple light on a shotgun with a simple tailcap that can be lightly depressed (without clicking) for momentary on is perfect. You don't have to use it but can.

I've also seen an instructor use a technique carrying a light in his weak hand as he wielded his shotgun. I wouldn't be as effective with that technique because I need that hand to manage the recoil.


Gideon

 

[shockwave]

Digging in THR archives, I see some suggestions here. Of the various options, this one allows the light to be detached.

 

[Pancho]

One of the benefits of taking the concealed carry course was the NRA produced movie on home defense. One of the most memberable points was that your bedroom and bed were your most defensible places. Instead of leaving that fortress to find the enemy one should make the enemy come to you by announcing loudly that you are armed and that you've called 911. If the response is "Sorry Mom,Dad
I'm late coming home."you can chew out your kid and tell the dispatcher that it's a false alarm. On top of that, I have enough night lights throughout the house and know my house well enough that I don't need a flashlight. My Judge with 3" 000 buck make up for the less than perfect lighting.

 

[Al LaVodka]

Gideon;
Why not just attach a pressure-swithch to the gun mounted light, or'd I miss something?
Al

 

[shockwave]

One of the most memberable points was that your bedroom and bed were your most defensible places.

Yep - I learned that in the NRA home defense course, too, live in my home. Take position behind the bed. All weapons trained on doorway. It's one of the best places to make a stand. On the other hand, I'd also like to keep intruders out, so that's a fall-back position if there's time to prevent unwanted entry.