Shotgunning for Those with Shoulder Injuries?

[Lovegasoline]

I wanted to get some opinions regarding 12 guage shotgunning for the shooter with shoulder injuries.
I've been diagnosed with torn cartiledge in both shoulders and deteriorating rotator cuffs, assumed to be climbing related injuries. No surgery as of yet, but I've got all that snap, crackle, and pop etc. going on. The last shotgun I shot was as a late teenager, a 12 gauge and it did have a noticable kick (that one in particular was an El Cheapo single shot a friend had, lightweight and I have no idea what loads).
I'll be getting a shotgun soon and wanted to know what variety or combination of strategies can be implemented to minimize felt recoil and potential shoulder pain/injury.


As an aside, the standard Mossy 500's w/bead sight (or Rem 870 Express) goes for about $350 out the door in NYC. What I really would like is a Mossberg 590A1 w/GR sights. Online I eyed a few used standard 590 Mossbergs w/GR but the NYC FFLs charge $75 for the out of state transfer (!). A fellow NY'er offered a nearly new condition Mossberg 590A1 w/ghost rings + full Vang Comp/port job which in the end would cost not too much more than these other stock shotguns (no transfer fee). I was thinking the modifications just might have some negligable impact on felt recoil. I'm primarily looking for a HD/social type SG, but would like to have fun playing with different kinds of shotgunning....but no serious competition. The VC'd 590 can likely be resold for about what I pay for it. Is there any reason too avoid getting it?
Thanks.

 

[sm]

My honest opinion is based on having taken Anatomy & Physiology,having spent time in a main OR, some real close Dr. and surgeons friends that shoot, and the experiences of other shooters.

Consult a Doc that is in fact a shooter. If he sends you to get a second opinion most likely he will send you to one that shoots as well, just make sure this is mentioned.

I do know shooters whom are told NOT to shoot 12 ga, not even light 7/8 loads. Retina detachment, back /neck injuries, shoulder problems, rotator cuffs, etc. Given time some can go back to a 12 ga just fine. Some are only allowed limited use ; meaning they shoot .410s or maybe 28ga, Use the 1100 in 20 ga only for HD.

I have a friend since moved away. Served in Vietnam and incurred some serious injuries of back, neck and shoulders. He once was a great skeet shooter - competed and won. Another injury as a passenger and he can't even use a 28 ga to compete. He is down to a .410 for shotguns, and is advised to limit this. He will shoot 5 doves and stop. His HD is SXS .410 with slugs. He went to Browning .380 as a sidearm. He keeps a Marlin 60 loaded up. NOT what he wants, admits not the best choice...but where he is at this point in time.

See a Dr. that shoots, get a consult and tests run is what I'd do before buying anything. One of the best kept secrets is a 1100 in 20ga, and makes a great HD gun as well.

Sorry for your troubles, I hope only temporary.

 

[Dave McCracken]

You have my complete and utter sympathy. FYI, a torn rotator cuff led me to dropping bowhunting and reinvesting time in shotguns, indirectly leading me here.

sm's advice about seeking medical help from shooting doctors is on the money. Non shooting doctors are clueless. After consulting. you may want and need to take up weightlifting, using 5-10 lb free weights to build up what strength you can sans further tearing and damage.

As to equipment,gas autos have less felt recoil,but weight a bit more. The 1100 20 gauge is a nice little honey, suitable for HD and most sport shooting also.

 

[DragonRider]

LovesGas, were you a swimmer??

I was and I have a similar issue. I haven't had problem shooting my pump or my O/U 12 Gauge with 2 3/4 Heavy Target Loads or Slugs. Since I dont hunt I dont think I will use many 3 or 3.5 inch loads. I would start with either a 28 or 20 Gauge. Use a good pad and sweatshirt or fleece, and Good Luck!

John

 

[Lovegasoline]

Thanks for the advice guys.
Not swimming, I believe the injury was from ice climbing: bad conditions (too cold/brittle), too much desperate whacking, and me too fresh off the couch. Could just be genetic degerative (??) I was treated at a clinic and the Docs are mainly students and disagree even among themselves (gah). I've no insurance now (and for the past year) so getting any med attention let alone shooter/docs is unlikely.
Getting back in with PT and pehaps light weight lifting isn't a bad idea. Maybe a shooting pad and light loads and see how it feels. It would be great to find a range not too far from the city that rents SG to see what I can handle...but as the weeks go on NYC is looking ever more grim regarding the existance of thriving gun culture, it's really starting to grate on me.

 

[sm]

L-

I hate to hear about the body not wanting to cooperate with shooting. I can appreciate the concerns of not getting a straight answer of Assessment and Dx from medical persons. We have a teaching hopsital, quite a good one as a matter of fact. Even seasoned docs have a time with new methods agreeing sometimes. My doc said they call it "practice" for a reason.Until such time I'd use the Physical therapy approach. Use Web MD and sites such as Merck. One has to take responsibility for one's own health.

I'm gonna step out on a limb, not unusal for me, still you are new here at THR, and I respect that.

Find a good used 20ga 1100 .

I know this is not what you want per se, I suggest for a reason. The political concerns I alluded to earlier, you have a right to protect yourself -period! I don't care what anybody thinks or pens on paper - I really don't - you have that right!

1100 20 ga works, softer shooting due to gas. in a plain Jane stock configuration it is both more PC and a very very viable tool - hunting and HD. It is a "best kept secret" for a reason.

Buy a plain Jane used 1100 20 ga. Even if down the road you physically are able to shoot a 12 ga, decide to "trick one out"....having a simple stock gas gun in 20 ga , bone stock is a wise thing to have.

I hope things improve with the shoulder. Just learn some PT, go slow, shoot light loads when you shoot. Do the basics first. but basics don't mean you cannot defend yourself.

 

[Bullet Bob]

I concur with the above, both the physical therapy, and the 1100 20 guage.

If it's any consolation, I just had surgery in 10/03 to repair 4 tears in my right rotator cuff. Getting older is an interesting journey, but some of the stops aren't all that much fun.

 

[TrapperReady]

Lovegasoline - How long have you had the rotator cuff problems? I had a problem with mine (following a fall and then some water-skiing crashes) early this past summer. It took me nearly 7 months to get mostly back to normal. In that time, I consulted a doc about some basic PT exercises and worked very carefully at building the stregth up slowly.

Personally, I didn't find shooting too bad, although for other reasons it was a pretty light summer and fall in that regard. If you are having acute pain and the injury is fairly recent (like within the last year or so), I'd be inclined to take it easy until it felt nearly normal again.

 

[Lovegasoline]

SM: Good input, I'll persue the PT with more gusto, and try to keep my humor with the medical community. I looked at my Remington catalog and it looks as if the only short barrel 1100 version is a LT Youth model (20" barrel). Looked around on the internet and did't see a used one, but I'll keep my eyes open. Here in NYC there are only about 10 new shotguns in ALL the stores combined! Nothing used whatsoever. The bottom of the pit as far as gun stores go. shoot me a note if anyone has one for sale.

Bullet Bob: Yeah, getting older's fun. Hope your shoulder heals and gets strong soon.

TrapperReady: I first had problems with the shoulders almost 3 years ago. Ignored it for 6 months. When I was being treated, I'd go in and one doctor would say "bilateral slap tear, both shoulders, need surgery ASAP", and another would enter the room 10 minutes later and say 'may not be torn cartiledge, no surgery necessary". I did PT but lost my faith in the doctors (clinic) :banghead: . For the past year, I've have no medical insurance, so I'm on my own. My range of motion is limited, particularly reaching my arms up and back. Constant grinding in the joint. I've grown accustomed to the pain and the only harsh pain is from moving my arms straight up over my head or back.
I've got a thin build, I do not know if shooting will impact on the joint or not. I'm expecting my NYC Pistol Permit to be issued shortly. I'll buy a Colt .45 1911 Government from a friend and wonder if that will transfer shock to the joint. This we will see.


I'm pretty much fed up with this whole shoulder injury business by now. I did go on a 6 climbing trip out West this past autumn. I figured, the hell with it, I'm degenerating physically being inactive in NYC and avoiding movement, so I'll just climb easy and if it hurts too much back off. Ayway, on the road I did PT religiously, got seriously fit being outside ( no electricity, living under the stars), managed to climb much much harder than I thought I would but the grinding was still undiminished.
On a side note, the Utah desert I liked very much, also Nevada. Saw guns everywhere, from pawn shops to fully stocked gun paradise stores. I also heard shooting going on at what must have been a desert range near to a place I was climbing outside Vegas @ Red Rocks, NV. First time to the desert for me and I loved it and it seems like a great place to shoot (anybody know if it's legal to shoot on BLM land?).

Maybe I just need to leave NYC, move out West, spend more time in the great outdoors getting fit, and indulge in shooting in places that actually enjoy firearms.

Could also go in the other direction and get a 10 or 8 gauge shotgun, shoot a few rounds, THEN go pickup a 12g, my shoulders gratefully thanking me and very very happy

 

[Dave McCracken]

"Maybe I just need to leave NYC".....

Yes.

 

[Lovegasoline]

Well Dave, I'm a artist... a painter, and NYC has more art galleries and museums than anywhere else I've been, it's that alone why I came here in the first place & it's what keeps me here. However, I think I'm destined for out west and NYC is loosing it's appeal.

Oh, one last thought: I've read where some of you have tested out the Compstock. Would one of those (on a 12g pump with low recoil loads) be a workaround and buffer the recoil enough to make a difference?

 

[Dave McCracken]

Chadd's Ford, PA is a very nice place and artist friendly...

NYC is my version of Mordor. I'd rather do hard time than live there, though the Museums are great.

Corriea's T&E of the Compstock was not very positive. You will do better, IMO, with lighter loads. 7/8 oz creampuffs are quite effective....

 

[grendelbane]

I see that you are looking at a .45 automatic.

I hurt my hand last year, (Not sure I did it shooting, but I know I aggravaged the injury shooting).

It got to the point where I could not handle even a full size .38 Special!

I could still handle my .45's!

Of course, they were all steel frame, Gov't models. Quite heavy.

I am recovered now, (I hope!), but even though I am only 47, I am limiting my use of the really hard kicking hand gun loads.

Those Pachmayr grips may soften the impact, but I now believe the cumalitive effect is considerable.

I will let you know if I change my opinion in another 20 years.

 

[Lovegasoline]

Grendelbane raises an interesting issue. Repetative impact and cumulative injuries.

My physical experience is not as extensive in shooting as it is in other practices. As an example, a form of climbing known as 'bouldering' (often done for practice but now popular as a dedicated climbing sport) is done close to the ground, unroped, often traversing on boulders, large and small ...with each effort ending with a jump off the rock. A 2 hour bouldering session could see one jumping off many dozens of times, even if just a couple feet from the ground. The popularity of bouldering led to the marketing of bouldering pads to lessen the impact of larger jumps/falls and rocky landings. However, much speculation has been made that if one jumps just a couple feet onto hard ground, dozens of times a session, a few sessions per week, for 20 years....that the cumulative impact on the body & joints could be devastating...and landing instead on a pad might not be a bad idea.

With the nerves of the fingers and hand, plus the joints receiving a large number of relatively small shock loadings ... are cumulative type injuries common in handgun, rifle, and shotgun shooting? Perhaps appearing at middle age for a lifetime shooter?

 

[Dave McCracken]

Doing anything can lead to cumulative damage. Ask any old Correctional Officer you see what 20 years of stress does to the body. That's if you can find one.

Cumulative damage for shotgunners seems to be....

Retina detachment.

Calcifications of the shoulder joint on the firing side and Tennis Elbow on the support side.

Carpal tunnel and tendonitis.

These are not inevitable. Shotgunners have a higher incidence of them.

Like many other shooters, hearing damage is common.

And while many middle aged shooters have aches and pains, so do peer group non shooters.

 

[Pepe Domingo]

About seven years ago I wrecked my shoulder in raquetball. The injury was not sugery worthy, but every year or two I need to get a cortizone shot and that usually clears me up very nicely.

I was always a dedicated pistol shooter, so there was not too much effect on my shooting ways. However, the internet revolution really broadened my shooting horizons and I began to branch out and got really serious into AR-15 style weapons. Now, the .223 is not a serious kicker at all, but I did notice that my shoulder would feel sore for a few days after zinging 200-300 rounds down range. Then I got into .308's. After a session with my AR-10, my shoulder would be painful for up to a whole week. Then, thanks to you guys, I got combat shotgun fever.

I just had to have an 870 to round out the collection. I got it and some 00 and some slugs. I shot it exactly 15 times. Oh, it was impressive....but my shoulder is finished. I am due for another cortizone shot and I do not want to risk blowing it out again with those monster shells. I will stick with pea shooters and pistols. It is a shame, but you guys will have to lug the short range artillery and I'll back you up from a distance

 

[Dave McCracken]

Sorry to hear this,Pepe. How about switching to southpaw?

 

[Lovegasoline]

Bummer scene with your shoulders Pepe . Those are my worst fear realized. Maybe I'm living in denial about what I'm actually going to be limited to. I've never shot a .308 but have been interested now that I have my rifle license. I hope I'm not cultivating even more denial....

....OTOH, how did you enjoy those 15 shots?

 

[Pepe Domingo]

Southpaw is not an option for me. I did something wrong in a past life and kharma has conspired to give me a bum right shoulder and a useless left eye.

Those 15 shots were a hoot. I got a no frills 870 HD. I found the 00 buck to be very poor. At 15 yards I was getting a spread of 14"+. I thought that was a bit wide for my tastes. Great for massed zombie attacks, though. Slugs were very good. At about the same distance all of my shots were touching.

BOOOOOOMMMMMMM

I do not want to get shot with anything, but without a doubt, the last thing I want hitting me at 40 yards and less is a 12 guage.