Should L&P be closed?

[lurkersince03]

HAHAHAHA. I knew I'd see a thread like this eventually.

I voted yes, it should be closed, leaving only General Gun Discussions. But only if there is a brand new channel opened up where there is NO MODERATING WHATSOEVER. I think every forum needs at least one of these channels, no matter what their position is on their terms of service. And in creating this channel, cordoned off by heavy social and legal disclaimers, it will effectively quarantine itself from the rest of the forums. Yes, it will be ugly. It may even be downright vile and evil at times. But anyone who's had problems with anything in Social Situations will go there to ventilate to the e-nets and leave the "moderated" zones alone. And who knows, maybe amidst the chaos and total anarchy, they will find order amongst themselves and develop a code, or determine a set of guidelines and ettiquette. And perhaps there are those that would wish to leave the crazy world of disorder and free-roaming opinion and return to the sensibility of a well-moderated forums (i.e. General Guns Discussion). And beyond even that, maybe once the unruled and abandoned come to their senses, they will decry and denounce the administrator(s) of these forums and demand a channel where they can peaceably discuss their views on the legality and politics of arms without the corruption of misinformation and overbearing pressure of majority-rules-opinion. And maybe they'll end up calling it something special... ...like Legal and Political.

 

[Skeptic]

would not base anthing on post counts because.
1) Some of us have lurked here for a long time before posting.
2) Some of us only post if we feel we have something important or different to add the discussion.
3) Post count is no indicator of political saavy.
4) Post count is no indicator of intelligence.

I agree with the above statement.

I would not get rid of the L and P section though. Its not a good idea to fix what is not broken.

 

[mp510]

L&P is one of the most popular forums here, and I believe it is necesary to keep it, if for nothing more than keeping the other forums clean. I think there needs to be some cleaning, but the concept is good. It's a good ground for debate, since there are a lot of different views here, contrary to popular belief.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

NO MODERATING . . . channel, cordoned off by heavy social and legal disclaimers . . .

Or not.

I don't think that wheel needs to be re-invented.

I get the distinct sense that there are already places where folk can go to roll in the mud, and those places are only a click away.

No point in adding a mud pit here when there are already other well-established pig wrestling venues.

L&P needs to be more about enlightenment, and less about favorite hobby horses.

Keep L&P. Keep it polite. Keep it relevant.

 

[Gordon Fink]

It’s been said that the Bill of Rights isn’t a menu.… That Said, the forum’s scope needs to be tightened. The RKBA should be made—clearly—the primary focus of L&P.…

The problem with this is that we can’t even agree on the full extent or importance of the right to keep and bear arms.

~G. Fink

 

[sm]

Keep it open with members self policing and teaching new folks how to be civil and interact. If folks choose to not abide by the rules of conduct they agreed to, if folks choose to not be civil polite human beings - remove them.

I choose to not lower myself to the level of those against the right to bear arms, those whom choose to infringe on my rights - or worse.
If I give up anything - anything at all - that is a small victory for Tyranny. Little victories for Tyranny means little defeats for Freedom. Singularly, these do not seem like much - nor does rain drops dripping onto granite. After a time both Freedom and Granite are eroded.

I choose to not be a bad representative of Freedom - instead one that not only carries himself well in real life - also Internet life. Internet is allowing persons to show their true selves anonymously where in real life they cannot. Frankly, some of the personalities on Internet scare me.

There is more to responsible firearm ownership that firearms -
I choose to not give off any impression by my real life, or internet life activities by being irresponsible - therefore giving impression of being irresponsible with a firearm.

In the old days , topics were allowed to be discussed that technically did not fall under posting rules. Some very good thread topics, lots of information shared and education gleaned. We actually had some fence sitters attracted to us due to these threads.

No, we keep L&P open, folks self police, be it by PMs to someone needing to learn, or a gentle elbow to get on track. Report to Moderator, and taking anything to Moderator via PM instead of laundering for the public to view.

We have some very learned folks we all can learn from in L&P. Some do not post anymore, like other qualified folks we have run off. WE are going to have to earn the respect of these folks, and Staff to keep Mission Statements and Goals intact.

We prove by doing we can be civil, polite and interact - we will be able to discuss a topic technically not in posting rules - allowed because it parallels civil rights as pertains to firearms.

I know we have anti's as members here.
Kinda like upkeep of a lawn, to kill weeds , all one has to do is mow the grass, this kills weeds, more healthy grass takes weeds place, mow again, and eventually the healthy grass chokes out the weeds. Sometimes one has to pull a weed, sometimes fertilize the grass - pouring concrete and painting it green is not the answer - the weeds won if you do.

 

[CDignition]

I actually think it should be an open forum...more freedom in expressing opinions is always better.

 

[arthurcw]

would not base anthing on post counts because.
1) Some of us have lurked here for a long time before posting.
2) Some of us only post if we feel we have something important or different to add the discussion.
3) Post count is no indicator of political saavy.
4) Post count is no indicator of intelligence.

I agree with the above statement.

Very true. I was only thinking of the trolls that drop in and post a scorcher that has all the potential for getting ugly. You look to the side and see 10 posts. But, again, I don't know if those are the real trouble makers.

Again, like I asked... what would be the number... 10 rounds, 8 rounds... Wait... I mean... hmmm I see some irony here.

Ok. I just figured out I am being a hypocrite. I formally renounce my support for post limits. Just throw the bums out if the get out of hand.

 

[Phetro]

I post here... and I vote yes, actually.

Take a close look at the above--a quote from a liberal--and you can understand why I vote NO, it's fine just the way it is. More restrictions or elimination is definitely not the answer--remember, without discussion (yes, including the rants, which are not by any means irrelevant, regardless of how fervent they may be), the liberals win!!! Of course they'd love to see L&P gone--it would mean one less forum in which the people opposing further ridiculous laws can be heard.

I am in favor of overthrowing the government. It is what elections are all about.

Good luck with that!

 

[ArmedBear]

The rules?

Like...

No matter how personal and insulting a poster (a regular poster) might be, it's not okay to inform him of what he is, because that's a "personal attack."

No matter what the police do, including killing the innocent to prosecute a malum prohibitum, it's "cop bashing" to express one's opinion about it.

Hell, L&P is already closed.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

It does not say argue, spout nonsense and wave your tinfoil hat merrily over your head.

The only problem with your approach is that to a neo con, a statist, or a police stater, views consistent with those of our Founding Fathers seem like tin foil hat nonsense.

 

[Skeptic]

Armed Bear may be on to something in my humble opinion about the "Cop Bashing". I dont agree with bashing cops or anyone else. However, it does seem to my simple mind that if someone does point out the obvious misdeeds of a member of the LE community - then he (or she) is jumped on and called a basher. I am sure that there are those out there that intensely dislike our peace officers, and they do need to be restrained in regards to their negative comments.
On the other hand, what do you call someone who is bashing a non-cop? Can we call it Non-cop bashing?

 

[Phetro]

The rules?

Like...

No matter how personal and insulting a poster (a regular poster) might be, it's not okay to inform him of what he is, because that's a "personal attack."

No matter what the police do, including killing the innocent to prosecute a malum prohibitum, it's "cop bashing" to express one's opinion about it.

Hell, L&P is already closed.

Oh, my. Too truthful--you, sir, need to be censored.

The only problem with your approach is that to a neo con, a statist, or a police stater, views consistent with those of our Founding Fathers seem like tin foil hat nonsense.

Ach! Don't you realize that deference to the system is the only comfort some people have? It takes courage to resist the corral, and downright character to believe like the Founding Fathers did.

 

[Low-Sci]

Keep L&P, but some serious changes do need to take place if we expect to have this forum act as a learning and teaching environment.

I understand that legal and political topics by their very nature carry with them certain elements of noncompromise. That said, its only true because some people are incapable of separating their emotions from the debate or admitting that maybe they're wrong.

L&P should stay open, but topics not directly related to firearms should be closed as soon as they are found. Inflammatory threads about illegal immigrants, jack-booted police, the new world order, anything from PrisonPlanet, and mindless partisan bashing should be closed immediately and whoever started the thread should recieve a warning along with anyone who participated negatively in that thread. Two warnings, and on the third occurrence you're banned from L&P.

Yes, its important to be able to talk about our rights and our government however not one of the above discussions is productive. To be productive, conclusions have to be found in a civilized and useful manner. Its no good to simply say "well that's crap."

Often on this forum I read about CCWers and how many of them believe that we should hold ourselves to a higher standard than the average citizen. I think that should hold true here as well, that we should not engage in pointless or inflammatory bickering, and those who do should be punished because they make the rest of us look bad.

I would support more aggressive moderation on more strictly defined subject matter.

 

[Art Eatman]

First off, my patience is not unlimited.

This is a firearms website. Our primary interests as to the political and legal matters have to do with the way they affect OUR very own RKBA. What they do in other countries is of interest, but not particularly important.

THR is not the Daily Blat, to speculate endlessly about every proper or improper action by either Bad Guys or LEOs. Where I get really gripy is the unending speculation in an absence of enough facts to be somewhere in the realm of rational and intelligent.

I'm personally fed up with insults. Members in particular, but that's already a cause for banning. It extends to political parties with whom one is in disagreement. Don't be surprised if "Democrat" or "Snopes Clinton" gets a post deleted as though it never existed. Same for any other pejoratives against any group. There are many ways to express one's distaste without reverting to Elementary School behavior. This site is for grownups.

I can think of several other things, but that's a good start for some folks to begin getting into some "Think twice, post once." style...

In the meantime, I'm going out and see what Bambi's doing ahead of this front coming down from wayupnorth.

Ciao,

Art

 

[lurkersince03]

I was being totally satirical, by the way, in case it wasn't clear enough with my punchline.

I agree with ArmedBear 100%. That's how I've viewed anything in Social Situations for the past year, and all of my scathing, selective-wit is pre-emptive because of it. That's probably the closest to an opinion I've formed here in a long time (I only speak on what I see {from the people who post}, or what I find funny {such as the people that post}. Or I do haikus).

 

[Skeptic]

Ok. I just figured out I am being a hypocrite. I formally renounce my support for post limits. Just throw the bums out if the get out of hand. (ACW)

Yep, got my support for tossing them out on their backsides. Be Civil or Be Gone...

 

[tubeshooter]

I generally avoid any threads that are L&P (among others) on boards of any kind that I frequent, that's always where the sore spot seems to be.

But that's just a personal deal. Doesn't mean I don't think it has a proper place and function on some boards; if you try to get rid of it, it tends to just seep into the "general discussion" folder or other ones. This is the Internet, there will always be people who can't really handle such discussion in a civil manner... just like real life (!). I think it's actually easier to keep track of if it's in a centralized location.


It will require heavy moderation, of course. If that's too much hassle, then maybe doing away with it is the answer. I think the link to APS is a pretty good idea also.

 

[jeepmor]

It should stay.

its only true because some people are incapable of separating their emotions from the debate or admitting that maybe they're wrong.

Lets face it, when it comes to politics and religion, you make and break more freindships than any other topic of converstaion. I've had friends for years that we get along on every topic until it comes to politics, religion and guns. It's just the way it is, and it exemplifies diversity in my opinion, and I beleive diversity is good, it's what freedom of expression is truly all about to me as an American.

Let us rant and rave, it's fun, gets it off our proverbial chests, and gives others a chance to counterpoint and present arguements that may change and alter our own opinions and perceptions of the world. I used to be quite liberal in my views, but have toned my self-righteous thinking down quite a bit since frequenting forums like this where many of you simply present sensible arguments pointing out holes in my logic. Thanks for that, learning is not a process that is supposed to stop.

I see it as a good thing, we all foam at the mouth once in a while, it's human nature. I think the ability to conduct this in this fashion is good for all of us. If the police staters and antis want to use this stuff for their arguments, doesn't bother me a bit. Because I truly think most antis are antis because they have never been in a situation where a gun could truly decide life or death. And you have to thank or countrymen and politicians along the way for making our society so safe that people can go about blissfully thinking we truly don't need guns. I don't agree with this concept myself, but this is a free country and we are allowed to think and voice our opinions in a free manner. There is nothing in the founding fathers documentaion about having to agree with people, simply that they are free, like I am, to express their thoughts.

jeepmor

 

[Phetro]

I'm personally fed up with insults. Members in particular, but that's already a cause for banning. It extends to political parties with whom one is in disagreement. Don't be surprised if "Democrat" or "Snopes Clinton" gets a post deleted as though it never existed. Same for any other pejoratives against any group. There are many ways to express one's distaste without reverting to Elementary School behavior. This site is for grownups.

This is true. You must admit, however, that the situation is extremely frustrating to many.

The RKBA is under the absolute worst threat now. It's not the gun grabbers exactly. It's infiltrators from the left that come in here and try to convince the pro-RKBA community that:

A. A large portion of leftists support the RKBA effort,
B. Voting for leftists is preferred, and (when those two fail)
C. Voting shouldn't be a "one-issue" affair.

They are intentionally dividing and conquering the gun rights community--weakening our resistance to the slippery slope bit by bit...trying to convince us to vote for the very people that are sworn enemies of the Second Amendment--come on, Art, I can't be the only one that sees this happening here. Allowing them a voice for their subversive, suggestive propaganda and censoring the people that expose them for what they are is just crazy!

 

[Nitrogen]

[quote="erebus]This door swings both ways. No matter who you criticize someone will not like it. If people are so thin skinned that they can't read, digest, and respond to criticism of positions that they support they need to look at themselves. When you have a political forum than you have political discourse. If you can't stand the heat...

Bashing is another issue altogether. I am fine with well constructed criticism, bashing accomplishes nothing but to flare tempers and kill any meaningful dialog.[/quote]

Not that I don't agree with you, but I feel as if you're missing my point, or I just didn't make mine well enough.
L&P has become a battleground for people to argue about all sorts of viewpoints that have nothing to do with RKBA.

I'm a member of a subfourm of a much larger, pay webforum. We are all firearms enthusiasts, and we use that forum to come together about guns. We are all of a very different political background, full of liberals, conservatives, libertarians, jihadists, etc, but we all get along because we focus on what we have in common: our love for the 2nd amendment.

My thinking is, maybe a similar approach can work here.

 

[bogie]

Idea - Three new forums:

1) Video games
2) Paintball
3) How to get mommy and daddy to let me buy an AK-47 that'll go well with my trenchcoat, and why won't they let me take it to school in my souped up Honda with the bulletproof plate duct-taped to the back window...?

 

[RNB65]

As I see it, the problem is that THR doesn't have a general discussion folder where folks can shoot the breeze, talk football, argue politics, etc. So L&P has sorta become the defacto general discussion area.

Putting a bunch of folks in the same room (website) then insisting that they talk about nothing but one single topic (firearms) is a bit ridiculous. I say create a GD folder then strictly moderate L&P to keep it on topic (firearms). Enforce civility in the GD folder, but let it be a place for spirited non-firearms discussion.

I'll even volunteer the first GD topic -- I say the Redskins can still make the playoffs!

 

[cosine]

As I see it, the problem is that THR doesn't have a general discussion folder where folks can shoot the breeze, talk football, argue politics, etc.

And as I see it, THR doesn't need such a sub-forum. I personally really like that THR is dedicated to one particular subject, and nothing else at all. I also think it's a great format for introducing others to the RKBA. Nothing else gets in the way.

I suppose it can be said still once again: www.armedpolitesociety.com for everything else.

 

[Grey54956]

Anything that isn't L&P regards RKBA and other gun issues should be closed or moved.

We should probably have a "News Discussion" area of some sort that doesn't quite fit the L&P RKBA mold. This would be a fine place for the "SWAT shoots up and old lady" threads. While these are certainly important threads, they don't actually directly involve new legislative actions or political stances other than "SWAT teams are bad" or "Cops were threatened". These types of threads which are generally pretty incendiary need there own area so I don't have to wade through that tripe unless I want to, which does happen from time to time, but generally isn't as important as seeing what the Antis are doing at any particular time.