Should Soldiers Today Be Able to Bring Back Weapons?

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Because soldiers shouldn't be allowed to keep weapons that regular citizens can't.

Incorrect sir, regular citizens should be allowed to keep any firearms that our soldiers can use.

Um, yeah, no. Politicians (the civilian government) are the ones who get to decide the goals of military action.

No sir, I said leave politicians out of military strategy planning. Our civilian govt. sets the goals, but if you want to win wars, leave strategy planning to the military.

Our current rules of engagement (thought up by our elected morons) has killed more soldiers than any other aspect of the way we conduct our wars.

Perceptions do not win battles or wars. Bullets, bombs, and guts win wars.
 
DammitBoy said:
Incorrect sir, regular citizens should be allowed to keep any firearms that our soldiers can use.

That doesn't make mljdeckard incorrect. Your statement is actually pretty much identical to his, just flipped. You are in agreement.
 
And the difference is......

Constitutional difference.

Accepting the idea that soldiers can carry and use weapons that citizens are restricted from using is in direct conflict with what our founders wrote the 2nd amendment to protect.

We certainly are not in agreement.
 
Which is EXACTLY what he said, and what he quoted.

"Because soldiers shouldn't be allowed to keep weapons that regular citizens can't."

You disagree? You think soldiers SHOULD be allowed to keep weapons that regular citizens cannot??
 
In a period of about 6 months after starting legislative action on it, the RIGHT of police officers to be armed all over the country, even after retirement, got approval from congress, and BOOM, it was law. They could easily exempt soldiers, etc, from the 86 machinegun ban, or just write some new law permitting soldiers to bring back weapons. You make it sound like the 1986, 1968, and other gun laws can't be changed. Once again, civilians DO own these type of weapons now.
 
They could easily exempt soldiers, etc, from the 86 machinegun ban,
Without digging too deeply into the issue, lets assume that they could.

They should NOT. Again, a core principle of our system of government is that -- outside of one's official, sworn duties as a LEO or a soldier on orders -- the law that applies to one applies to all. None are a super-citizen, exempted from the same laws, restrictions, and requirements that apply to anyone else.

Even a soldier, no matter how valorous and distinguished, (or a LEO, Judge, Senator, or the President of the US!) has no more nor less rights than any other citizen of this country. And that is as it should be.
 
There is no need to try and warp my words, they are right there to be read by anybody with the ability to read and think.

The OP question is: Should soldiers be allowed to bring back weapons?

mljdeckard: "No, because soldiers shouldn't be allowed to keep weapons that regular citizens can't."

me: "Yes, because citizens should be able to own any firearm used by our military. As the founders clearly intended when writing the 2nd amendment."

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The first implies acceptance of an infringement upon our rights as citizens. The latter states clearly that this is unacceptable.

If you still have trouble with my logic or position, I'm sorry - I can explain it to you, but I cannot understand it for you.
 
"Yes, because citizens should be able to own any firearm used by our military".

^Allowing soldiers to return with firearms doesn't really do that. Changing the laws and removing restrictions on ownership/possession would do that. Nobody needs to be able to take anything home from a theater of war in order to make that happen.
 
Warp has a point. There are two facets to the question.

1) Should soldiers be allowed to take home personal trophies from the dead/defeated enemy?

2) Should soldiers be granted personal freedoms, when they return to civilian life, which exceed those of other civilian citizens?
 
Warp has a point. There are two facets to the question.

1) Should soldiers be allowed to take home personal trophies from the dead/defeated enemy?

2) Should soldiers be granted personal freedoms, when they return to civilian life, which exceed those of other civilian citizens?
1: If the trophy isn't something of significant personal value to the enemy soldier's family (ie, a religious book or family photos etc) then my opinion is yes.

2: This one is tougher - They are the reason we have what freedoms we have - they should be rewarded for that, but at the same time, our nation holds equality of rights and treatment in high regard. I have to say yes but not in regards to weapons rights - we should all be able to have the "fun toys" - The way things are now is not how they should be.
 
Sam1911, would that also apply to citizens vs. retired cops, with regards to CCW? Citizens should have the same "rights" as police officers, for aren't we all one and the same under the law? :rolleyes: It would seem we have lots of laws that create classes of citizens, and make us, well, NOT-equal. Once again, how many laws were broken when the Army brought that Glock back and gave it to George W Bush? I'm all for equality.
 
A lot of these guys are coming home with PTSD. PTSD and full auto weapons don't mix too well

Contrary to this frothing nonsense, PTSD doesn't lead people to go on shooting rampages, murder their families or whatever. People who do that had other problems, likely long before they joined. PTSD can lead to depression, anxiety and difficulty coping. But it does not make veterans into dangerous madmen who think everyone is Charlie. That's Sillywood bravo sierra.

Nor does it have anything to do with the question in the thread. Unless you're going to bar all vets from owning any firearms because of misplaced PTSD paranoia, the issue is not whether they should be able to have firearms.

Sometimes I have to wonder what vets must think of us.

2) Should soldiers be granted personal freedoms, when they return to civilian life, which exceed those of other civilian citizens?

The way I look at it, this could be win-win. If the registry is reopened for veterans, then they increase everyone's freedom by expanding the transferable firearms under the NFA.
 
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Sam1911, would that also apply to citizens vs. retired cops, with regards to CCW? Citizens should have the same "rights" as police officers, for aren't we all one and the same under the law?
While I can't argue that I'm not for universal right to carry ... nor would I try and defend Congress' decision to extend their mandate to require states to recognize credentials issued by another state, that's still a far cry from opening the NFA registry to a favored class of citizen.

It would seem we have lots of laws that create classes of citizens, and make us, well, NOT-equal.
So MORE of the same is good? That's not how I see it.

Once again, how many laws were broken when the Army brought that Glock back and gave it to George W Bush? I'm all for equality.
GWB was not "personally" given a machine pistol. He was officially presented a war trophy (don't know if dewat or not) but from what I've read it is part of his official Presidential museum collection -- not a toy he takes home to the ranch for blasting.

GWB, BO, BC, GHWB, JC, or even RR if we can resurrect him walk into a SOT3 gun shop and ask to buy a new machine gun -- they cannot. Until/unless the average citizen CAN, they should not be able to.
 
The way I look at it, this could be win-win. If the registry is reopened for veterans, then they increase everyone's freedom by expanding the transferable firearms under the NFA.
Well...now we're speculating on the intricate details of a law that is not now and never will be written. IF Congress granted "Uber Machine Gun Owner" status to returning veterans :)rolleyes:) would those machine guns they could then buy become transferable to non-special-class citizens? I can't see why anyone would expect that.

Fortunately this is all an incredibly moot point.
 
Speaking as someone who has seen American soldiers go through the pockets of a dead enemy for cigarettes and not been bothered by it, not like those cigarettes were going to do that guy any good anymore and they were not going to his family. I've read a few books about WWII and there was quite a lot of animosity over guns taken as war souvenirs. Jealousy, resentment over who it should belong to and cases of officers just plain stealing it from their men by means of their rank. I think that had a lot to do with it.

I don't think booby traps has a thing to with it. Its not as though we leave those weapons laying around after a fight. They are collected anyway and either destroyed or transported.

When the 1911s in armsrooms were finally replaced by M9s we were hoping they would be sold off to the public, they were destroyed. You think in an environment like that they are going to let you bring guns back from the war? Not going to happen.
 
As far as BATFE is concerned, there is no reversing a full-auto to a semi. Once auto, always auto. This is why CMP can sell Garands but not M-14s or M-16s.

I dunno. So a guy finds an AK or Dragunov and wants to bring it home? No big deal. but you know full well it leads to guys stuffing RPGs in their bags. Honestly, I see no real reason to allow it. It would also be extending a privilege to soldiers that civilians don't enjoy. You want an AK? Buy a civilian one.


Yes....and so what?
Civilians don't EARN that privilege. Soldiers do ya Goober.....lol
 
SabbathWolf said:
Yes....and so what?
Civilians don't EARN that privilege. Soldiers do ya Goober.....lol

Whoa-ho-ho there.

We are talking about rights here. Of United States citizens. They do not have to be earned. They are NOT privileges. They are RIGHTS.

The absolute last thing we need is more special, elite classes that are differentiated from the rest of the citizen body.
 
Whoa-ho-ho there.

We are talking about rights here. Of United States citizens. They do not have to be earned. They are NOT privileges. They are RIGHTS.

The absolute last thing we need is more special, elite classes that are differentiated from the rest of the citizen body.

We are "NOT" talking about Rights at all.
That's QUITE a stretch there Bud.
Please show me anywhere in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution or the Bill of Rights that explains war trophies.
If you want one one, then go earn and win one.
 
JohnBiltz said:
When the 1911s in armsrooms were finally replaced by M9s we were hoping they would be sold off to the public, they were destroyed. You think in an environment like that they are going to let you bring guns back from the war? Not going to happen.

Yes the hundreds of thousands of 1911s that were entirely civilian legal under existing laws were destroyed by the government specifically to keep them from going to civilians.

Similarly the M14s, easily reduced to semi-auto only (and some have been welded to accomplish that) were destroyed specifically to keep them from going to civilians.

Many other guns from Thompsons to m3s were likewise destroyed in large numbers.
As well as various semi-auto marksman and sniper rifles not kept in inventory.



The military is relatively anti-gun, and untrusting of enlisted personnel.
They have in recent times tried to force all service members to register even guns owned off base. Guns stored on base often must be kept in armories. Even soldiers with CCW licenses in the state they are stationed in cannot have their firearm on them on base.
The military goes out of their way to reduce how often many soldiers have access to weapons. Unless they are in immediate need of a firearm they are kept disarmed in general.
Soldiers in the barracks often cannot even have knives, or knives over some relatively small length. Because they don't want them having deadly weapons.

The mentality that exists would not want to actually increase the number of arms personally owned by soldiers. All other considerations aside, just soldiers having more personal weapons would be seen as undesirable.





Beyond all of that:

Most modern arms on a battlefield are selective-fire. This means most legitimate war bring backs would be illegal to own as a civilian. Soldiers should not be allowed to own something civilians cannot.
So you would need to repeal the 86 machinegun ban to resolve that issue.

These various police actions and insurgent based conflicts have the military primarily dealing with civilians. Any motivation added for some soldiers to steal from the civilian population could be counterproductive to winning hearts and minds or reducing enemy recruitment.
This risk is further increased due to the machinegun ban, as since the majority of actual enemy weapons will be selective fire, soldiers wanting their bring back and unable to acquire one that is not selective fire from actual enemy fighters may turn to taking semi-auto firearms from civilians.
Soldiers should have no personal motivation to steal rifles, shotguns, or pistols, from civilians, or claim civilians were enemy combatants to steal from them for personal gain.
When you remove the opportunity for any personal gain, you reduce motivation for corrupt practices.
 
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