Shoulder Bumping

[DKSDonnie]

Competition shell holder make the head to datum measurement longer. Not what you seen to need.

I was under the impression that the Redding shellholders started at .010 and went down in increments of .002 until you get to .002. A fellow on Youtube shows that as you go down it bumps the shoulders back until you get that free bolt closure you are looking for when you reach proper clearance.

 

[DKSDonnie]

The expander may crush an annealed brass thats been sized without the expander. Chamfer case neck a litte more, maybe?

How can the expander crush an annealed case if you size with the expander removed? I don't chamfer cases until I resize and then trim to length. Chamferring won't help when the expander pulls back up through the neck on the downstroke of the press.

 

[DKSDonnie]

Is this after sizing? Will an unsized fired brass from your gun fit back into the chamber?

No and NO!

 

[243winxb]

How can the expander crush an annealed case if you size with the expander removed?

It can't.

If you take a case that was FL sized without the expander, then run it through the die again with the expander, the neck/shoulder may be crushed or deformed.

The neck sized with no expander may be as much as .012" smaller in diameter then the expander. Tapered expander should not have this problem.

 

[243winxb]

Redding Competiton Shell holders.

I was under the impression that the Redding shellholders started at .010 and went down in increments of .002 until you get to .002.

When you get to the .002" the head to datum is longer than standard by the 2 thousands.
All 5 shell holders make the head to datum of a sized case longer than a standard shell holder.

You need a shorter head to datum measurement after sizing then a fired case by about .0015" to .003"

 

[243winxb]

Will an unsized fired brass from your gun fit back into the chamber?

You said NO.

When a fired brass from your rifle will no go back into the chamber, there are 3 reasons why.
1.Oval chamber.
2.Bolt face not square to the chamber.
3. A sign of high pressure. The 270 WSM at 65,000 PSI is close to the deformation stage, brass no longer springs back.

Full Length sizing fixes this. So i would not worry about it, as you have already bumped the shoulder back .0015" and got a round to chamber.

 

[glockky]

I believe putting the shell holder on a belt sander would do the trick.
Probably just removing .002-.003” would get you where you want to be.

 

[Blue68f100]

With the competition shell holders you setup you dies with the 0.010". Then as you brass work hardens you start moving to the smaler holders. Start with 0.010" , brass will size as it suppose too. Then you drop to 0.008", 0.006"..... till you get your work hardened brass to size correctly. You do not reset the setting on the sizing die.

With annealed brass is should be very soft at the neck and shoulder. If your size a piece of brass without the expander the neck ID could be 0.010" or more under size than the required/desired your looking for. If the sizing button contacts the neck without and chamfor this will crush the necks trying to get started. When I lube the expander I remove the stem assembly and apply lube (Imperial Sizing Wax) to expander directly. Making sure it's get lube on the top side that contacts the brass as being pulled out. Also make sure there is NO brass being deposited to the expander. This can add a lot of extra drag as it is pulled through.

Now that you said a once fired brass will not fit the chamber throws up a red flag to me. There is something wrong with the chamber/bolt alignment, out of square or very loose allowing the neck to hang. If you can rotate the brass and get it to go in, indicates the bolt face is not square. You can check this with some concentric gauge.

The feeler gauge under the base at the shell holder is a very good idea. I've used it for decades. Most shell holders are loosely cut and can take a 0.010" feeler gauge if needed. But normally you only need to use a 0.003"-0.005" gauge to accomplish your goal of moving the shoulder back.

 

[243winxb]

Hornady Headspace Comparator.

A good read on using the Hornady tool. https://www.brownells.com/aspx/learn/learndetail.aspx?lid=11470

Put the Redding Comp Shell holders away for now. Not needed. Use a standard shell holder or one that has .002" remove.

 

[Walkalong]

I was under the impression that the Redding shellholders started at .010 and went down in increments of .002 until you get to .002

Yes, plus .002 to plus .010, which moves the shoulder less than a standard shell holder. You would need a negative to move it more. No one makes thse as far as I know. The standard is .125 above the base of the case. The plus .010 would be .135 above, stopping the die even farther up.

 

[Rule3]

No and NO!

Just to re group here.

If you shoot some FACTORY ammo out of your rifle, eject the case and then try to chamber that empty case, you say it will not chamber???

If so you have issues other than reloading.

 

[redbullitt]

IF you rifle/chamber/loadings are all good to go then you are probably fighting the brass itself...

I have had a similar problem using some old .308 and 30 06 brass and some 50 bmg cases.

I wager you are fighting brass spring back/memory. A little annealing may help you there.

For each one I had to make a "minus" shell holder, meaning I sanded the top of the shell holder down little by little until I could get the measured shoulder where it needed to be.

 

[Walkalong]

If you mod the shell holder, I suggest marking it. I'd rather mod the die if it truly needs it, and my .223 sizer did.

 

[DKSDonnie]

It can't.

If you take a case that was FL sized without the expander, then run it through the die again with the expander, the neck/shoulder may be crushed or deformed.

The neck sized with no expander may be as much as .012" smaller in diameter then the expander. Tapered expander should not have this problem.

Gotcha now. I get it. TX!

 

[DKSDonnie]

Yes, plus .002 to plus .010, which moves the shoulder less than a standard shell holder. You would need a negative to move it more. No one makes thse as far as I know. The standard is .125 above the base of the case. The plus .010 would be .135 above, stopping the die even farther up.

The video I have included in this thread shows how by going down in increments from .010 to .002 he is bumping the shoulder back until he gets the free bolt closure he is looking for. If it worked how you guys are explaining it to me., then his bolt closure would get harder by increasing head space and that isn't what is happening there. I'm no engineer but what you guys have explained how the Redding shellholders work and how it works on the video is two completely different outcomes. I guess I'm not getting it. Why would you use the shellholders if they lengthen the shoulder to case head measurement. To me, that would would be the dumbest tool ever made.

 

[Walkalong]

Often times if we screw the die down to hit the shell holder we move the shoulder more than we want to. Using the Redding shell holders allows us to run the die down to hit the shell holder but not move the shoulder too much/more than we want to, theoretically making it more consistent than having space between the die and the shell holder. Old timers would use feeler gauges to do this.

Make sense yet?

 

[FROGO207]

How about the shell holders are stepped but you are seeing the reverse. The shorter the shell holder lip (where the head stamped part of the brass sits to the top of the shell holder) the more the brass sizes from head stamp end to shoulder. Using a longer (higher) shell holder will allow LESS of the brass to enter the die therefore setting the shoulder back less. This can control the amount of shoulder setback by a set amount while taking press flex out of the equation. You start long and go shorter until the bolt closes OK. So the same thing is using a feeler gauge under the base of the brass will raise the brass up allowing more of the shoulder to be set back. Could be done the same way by grinding a little off the bottom of the die or the top of the shell holder instead of using a feeler gauge to lift the brass up.

Anyway I am so lucky because my 300 WSM Savage does not have any of these problems with reloading the ammo using Lee dies.

 

[243winxb]

Why would you use the (Redding Comp) shell holders if they lengthen the shoulder to case head measurement.

Engineering tolerances allow variation in the specifications set by SAAMI.

A chambers headspace can be at a maximum of 1.736" head to datum.
The cartridge head clearance can be a minimum of 1.723" head to datum when sized .
This can allow the case to stretch, on firing .013" More then needed.

To reduce excess sizing of the fired case, a Redding Comp shell holder .010" can be used to remove some of the slop of the cartridge in the chamber.

 

[243winxb]

I guess I'm not getting it.

Your problem is this.
The minimum chamber head space is 1.726" head to datum.
The maximum cartridge head clearance is 1.730" Head to datum.

The cartridge is .004" longer then the chamber, if both are at these measurements.

Engineering tolerance is the permissible limit or limits of variation. SAAMI has these listed.
Chamber- Max to min. 1.736" to 1.726"
Cartridge max to min. 1.730" to 1.723" Tolerances for both.
Hope this help and my math is correct. Double check the SAAMI drawings.

 

[243winxb]

The Hornady comparator will not give these exact measurements.

It is best used to compare the fired case from your rifle and the full length sized brass . The sized case should be about .0015" to .003" shorter, head to datum than the fired measurement.

 

[JimKirk]

I asked Redding if they could share some drawings that would explain the Competition shell holders ... They said they didn't have any to share, but this was their supplied information....

From Redding
"Not sure that I have a good drawing for them. I can tell you that a standard shellholder measures .125" in depth (industry standard). This measurement is taken from the top of the shellholder down to where the case head sits. Our Competition Shellholders are cut deeper than the standard +.002, +.004, +.006, +.008 & +.010. So the +.002 would measure .127", the +.004 would measure .129" and so on.

These shellholders will help minimize shoulder set back, by keeping more of the case out of the die. Therefore affecting how far the shoulder is set back.

Hope this explains it. Let me know should you have any further questions. I have attached a set of instructions as well as an illustration."

 

[DKSDonnie]

How about the shell holders are stepped but you are seeing the reverse. The shorter the shell holder lip (where the head stamped part of the brass sits to the top of the shell holder) the more the brass sizes from head stamp end to shoulder. Using a longer (higher) shell holder will allow LESS of the brass to enter the die therefore setting the shoulder back less. This can control the amount of shoulder setback by a set amount while taking press flex out of the equation. You start long and go shorter until the bolt closes OK. So the same thing is using a feeler gauge under the base of the brass will raise the brass up allowing more of the shoulder to be set back. Could be done the same way by grinding a little off the bottom of the die or the top of the shell holder instead of using a feeler gauge to lift the brass up.

Anyway I am so lucky because my 300 WSM Savage does not have any of these problems with reloading the ammo using Lee dies.

Ty and you are a lucky ma. LOL!

 

[DKSDonnie]

Basically the shellholders change how much of the case goes up inside the die to adjust how much shoulder bump you get, is how I understand it? Some of you said the shell holders lengthen the measurement from the bottom of the case to the datum line. And yes it does in a way by making the case longer so it goes up into the die further. But in the end, it controls how much shoulder bump you want. I understand that. But when you tell me it lengthens the case head to datum line measurement, that makes my head explode. If that was end result, then why would they make them. To me that's stupid. I used the shellholders as a means to bump the shoulders back without having to shave shellholders and the base of the die. If you have to do that, then in my opinion, the die is not properly made to perform the job it's advertised to do. No matter if I adjust the die up or down, change shellholders, lube necks, anneal the brass, use proper lube and lube properly, then I have a bad die. I have no other explanation. I realise I could have stubborn brass, but it's the same Winchester brass made by Winchester for all other calibers. It's all once fired factory ammo from my rifle. It's not like they use special brass with different properties for the WSM's. I think it's the angle of the shoulder with the combination of a bad spec die. I did check the bases and they are .030 less at .525 for a SAAMI spec of .555 and the die is measured at .549 so the bases aren't causing the hard bolt closure. I did eliminate the need for a small base die. I did order a FORSTER FL DIE from Midway on clearance so if it doesn't work I'm out $30.00. I also turned the cases at 1/4 turn increments and attempted a diff bolt closure feel with no change so no oblong chamber.

 

[DKSDonnie]

Ty and you are a lucky ma. LOL!

Mine is a Savage in 270 WSM also. Wish I had no problems like yourself. I also have a Browning 7MM WSM that has the same problem with Lee die's also. I love both guns but i'm real close selling both and getting either a straight 270 or 7MM Mag.

 

[DKSDonnie]

The Hornady comparator will not give these exact measurements.

It is best used to compare the fired case from your rifle and the full length sized brass . The sized case should be about .0015" to .003" shorter, head to datum than the fired measurement.

I would love for that measurement to be true after i resize them. The fired cases all measure at 1.7560 and after sizing they will measure at 1.7570 - 1.7575. I eliminated the expander pulling the necks forward because I removed the expander and sized the casings and they still were 1.7570 - 1.7575. I think the die is resizing the body which is making the brass flow forward into the shoulder/neck area but the die isn't bumping the shoulders. Or maybe it is but the pressure of the forward flowing brass which is making the brass spring forward after the expander has pulled through the neck. I guess I should smoke the shoulders or mark them to see if they are touching the die. If the Forster Die I have coming doesn't fix it, I don't know what to do. I've read where if you send the die and 3 fired casings to them, they will make you a custom die for your gun.