Shoulder holsters?

[rskent]

Gosh I want to pick up a shoulder holster for my Glock whatever. Is there any safety concerns?
Am I gonna shoot myself re holstering? Aside from comfort and convenience, what are the downsides to shoulder holsters?

OK Flintnappper, here we are in a new thread. I seriously don't understand the safety issues with a shoulder holster.
And I have been looking at getting one for my G26. The only downside I have seen so far is the cost. If it matters I am looking at verticals.

 

[Lucky Derby]

The safety concerns about shoulder holsters are the same concerns about any cross draw holster. That is the wide arc the gun goes through during the draw, which may momentarily cause innocents to be in the line of fire. While this is true, the danger this poses can be mitigated by good trigger discipline. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target AND ready to fire. With practice it is a non issue. The problem becomes getting the live fire practice. Many ranges will not permit shoulder, or other cross draw types of holsters on the range. Practicing the draw at home with an empty gun becomes even more important than with other types of holsters.

The other concern that some have is primarily with the horizontal shoulder holsters. When holstered the pistol is pointed to the rear of the one carrying the gun, thus anyone standing behind them, has a gun pointed at them. While technically true, a PROPERLY holstered pistol isn't pointed at anyone or anything, in the context of the safety rules. The same way a gun laying on a table is not being pointed at anyone who happens to walk past the table. The gun is not being handled. A good holster, in good condition, and designed for the firearm it is carrying, will protect the trigger guard and prevent the trigger from being pulled, either accidentally or on purpose. If this were a legimate concern, the same would apply to anyone carrying in a traditional belt holster on the 2nd floor of a building. The gun is pointed at people on the first floor, and probably at the carrier's feet and legs at some point.

I'm sure others will post with opinions contrary to mine. Take it all in and make your own choice.

 

[KenW.]

One may learn all about shoulder holster safety by watching Dirty Harry movies.

Seriously though. When I started carry a handgun I got one. It didn't take me long to replace it. Hollywood glamorized them but I found them awkward and complex.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I like a shoulder holster in the winter--or whenever I can wear a sweatshirt/sweater.
it is a nice, non bulky way to carry a gun and extra magazines without the hassles of belt carry.
A good one, however, will cost about $150--I use a Galco and it is a great holster.
No--unless you do something stupid it is no more likely to have a ND than any other holster.

 

[Schwing]

I don't often wear a shoulder holster but I think it is beneficial to own one. I wear mine when wearing a suit which is about once a year. The only other time I use it is when on long road trips. If I need to draw from inside the car, pocket carry is out and, since I have little ones in the car, leaving a BUG in the door doesn't work either.

 

[Sam1911]

On shoulder holsters:

Here's a really detailed thread on shoulder holsters, pros and cons: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7901579&highlight=shoulder+holster#post7901579

Some other comments:

The two options I'd suggest for a delivery/taxi driver or anyone who spends more than 50% of their day in a car would be either a vertical shoulder holster or a cross-draw belt holster. Either of those options gives up a lot to a strong-side belt holster for "normal" use, in concealment, comfort, and security and speed of draw, but they do unquestionably beat the car-seat problem.

The two biggest downsides I can see are that it is very easy to have your draw blocked or pinned completely by an adversary who manages to grapple with you or back you against a wall -- and that it is very difficult to get the kind of regular practice in that is so vital to self-defense. Most ranges will prohibit that kind of a holster as you're inherently sweeping bystanders, the line, and even yourself on the draw (without some pretty gymnastic contortions). If you can find a range with 360 degree pits/berms so you can get the practice you need on a regular basis, go for it!

If you need to carry a very large gun, the shoulder holster is a bit easier to do that with than most belt holsters.

If you're sitting down and/or driving during most of the times when you might need to be able to get the gun in a hurry, the shoulder holster again can be more advantageous than other designs, depending on several factors.

As for disadvantages, they tend to "print" worse than most folks believe, especially the horizontal versions. They tend to trade weight at the belt for weight on the shoulders, which isn't always a good thing. They also are hard to practice with easily as few ranges and NO competition venues allow their use due to the near impossibility of drawing without committing a muzzle-direction violation and/or sweeping other shooters and sometimes yourself.

On the other hand, they're really good if you're going for a vintage '70s'-'80s cop show look.

A down-side that has not been mentioned in this thread (although it has been covered in all the other shoulder holster threads recently) is that the draw-stroke from a shoulder holster (and, again from a cross-draw) is also the most easily blocked under certain circumstances.

If an attack comes up close, and/or the attacker manages to get his arms around you or a hand on your strong arm, it becomes quite difficult to draw the gun and get it pointed the right way. If you place your arm flat across your chest like you're drawing from a shoulder holster and have someone hold that arm tightly, you'll find that it is pretty easy for that person to keep your arm pinned.
Further, if an attacker was to get you in a close grapple, with his body against yours, you'd have little chance to get your firing hand between your bodies to even get to the gun.

There are techniques which can be practiced to fight through those situations with some degree of success, but none of them will be as fast or as natural as drawing a gun from a holster at your waist on the strong side -- a move that is very difficult to block.

Certainly, not everyone who carries worries that attacks will happen up close like this and most probably assume that they'll have ample time and space to draw the gun.

Just something to consider.

 

[cpt-t]

rskent: I have been using Shoulder Holster`s for a long time. I started in Viet Nam in 1968. I find them very comfortable for me and I have grown to like them very much. Just make sure you get one of good quality with a wide strap that fits over your shoulder. I have several and I like the vertical type more than the other design`s. The BIANCHI X15 model is probabley my favorite and I have 3 of them in different sizes. I bought the first one new in the early 1970`s I think and the other 2 used at gun shows. They will last for ever I guess, or at least mine have. Very comfortable to wear, on the outside of what You are wareing or the inside. If You get a good one that fits You and You wear it properly they don`t move around even you are even running, or at least mine don`t. I really don`t like a heavy gun belt rig hanging around my waist for a long periods of time. So I use a pocket carry of some sort or a shoulder holster most of the time. Give a good Shoulder Holster Rig a try and choose for Your self, they are not for everybody.
ken

 

[Flintknapper]

rskent,

Sorry, just noticed your post. Too late this evening to participate, but I am going to respond as I have time. I have 18 years experience carrying in a shoulder rig, so when I offer my 'opinions' you may know it comes from real world practice (good or bad).

Now, that does NOT make me an expert by any means...but it does separate me from someone who 'tried it once...and didn't like it'.

Hopefully your thread will survive long enough that some meaningful discourse can be exchanged, but I've seen plenty of 'Shoulder Holster' threads go 'South' over the years.

 

[Flintknapper]

rskent wrote:

I have been looking at getting one for my G26. The only downside I have seen so far is the cost. If it matters I am looking at verticals.

Shoulder rigs (good ones) are not inexpensive, but many folks fail to realize that 'most' shoulder holsters are actually 'rigs' made up of a harness, holster and one or more magazine pouches.

If you were to compare the price of purchasing those same components (as a belt rig) I think you would find them similar in total cost.

IF you see no need to carry a spare mag and were to choose an IWB style holster, then yes...you can spend less money, but do consider exactly what it is you are getting with a shoulder rig, it is NOT just a holster.

I will need a few evenings to gather up some old information and discussions I've had in the past, but will return to this thread ready to have some lively discussion.

As with any mode of carry...there are pros and cons, advantages and disadvantages. You will not find me touting shoulder carry as the 'best' way or defending it where clearly there exist concerns, but I will offer some incredibly simple solutions to several common objections and let the readership decide for themselves.

But back to "Cost": Recognize that any shoulder rig (worth having) will not be inexpensive...so be certain that you have an actual need for one or at the very least...can justify the cost by the benefits realized, else you will experience 'buyers remorse'.

Many (and I do mean MANY) folks buy a shoulder holster because: Well..... they just 'wanted one', or think they looked cool.

They didn't really have a need for one, didn't know how to wear it, adjust it, draw from it (correctly and safely) or failed to balance it side for side. Next thing you know...they are on the internet disparaging the product and mode of carry.

Sorry, guys....but that's just being intellectually dishonest.

Yes, shoulder holsters are not for EVERYONE, so in the course of this discussion...maybe we can help folks evaluate (before they buy) whether or not it would be a good choice for them.

 

[smalls]

I occasionally carry in a shoulder rig. But I have an area to practice drawing and firing, which is a must. It's a lot slower than belt carry, but sometimes it's just more comfortable for me. Some don't like the weight on their shoulders all day.

 

[rskent]

All, thanks for the input.

Sam1911, a lot of good information in that thread. Thanks.

 

[BLU]

Like Cpt-t... I bought and have used a BIANCHI X15 for many, many years. You'd be pleasantly surprised at what you can hide in a shoulder holster like that, (mine: 1911; Colt Python; S&W N Frames, Ruger Vaquero, etc.). (I prefer the largest handgun I can comfortably hide!) For long trips, (6 hrs. plus), I carry a Ruger .357 Mag. 2" SP101 in a Galco Miami Vice Classic shoulder holster, in comfort. They certainly aren't inexpensive, but, what is? All waist holsters have caused me discomfort on the trips. An added advantage is you always have easy access while sitting... even wearing a seat belt. What works for me may not work for you.

 

[Flintknapper]

If we are to have an in-depth discussion about shoulder carry, I would recommend we break it down into 'subjects' I.E. (Vertical vs. Horizontal, Proper draw stroke(s), reholstering, retention, etc...).

Otherwise this thread, like so many others.... will be all over the place.

The thread 1911 linked to... had more bickering than good solid information (at times). Particularly when it comes to 'retention' and/or drawing from disadvantaged positions. I would like to discuss that...but I would like for that subject to be dead last on the list.

We should start with something innocuous, such as 'comfort of wear' (or lack thereof).

We can then work into other areas of concern, but it would be best to take each subject to its end before moving on. Those who are not TRULY interested in shoulder carry, will no doubt drop out...before we get very far.

To quickly address the OP's very first question (but not start the subject just yet): NO...you are not going to shoot yourself or anyone else...UNLESS you have poor holstering/re-holstering skills. We will look at that later.

For now, who has concerns about issues related to the comfort or convenience of WEARING a shoulder rig? Be specific, as there may be a ready solution.

 

[Lucky Derby]

Flintknapper: a very reasonable approach. Thank you for suggesting it.

 

[rskent]

For me, I am looking at vertical. My main reason for looking at shoulder holsters is for carry on my bike.
Most of the time my wife goes with me. While I am sure a holstered horizontal would be totally safe,
I am just not pointing a gun at her. So its vertical or nothing.

 

[Flintknapper]

Define "Bike".

Motorcycle (with her behind you) or a Bicycle?

I'm guessing Motorcycle, but I want be clear.

Will the holster you choose have a retention strap, or will it be a 'pull through' design? Vertical (butt of weapon up) carry differs from horizontal in a few ways.

 

[Longhorn 76]

With a shoulder holster, get a good one, and be prepared to play with the rigging for a few days. I use an Andrews Monarch. It took a week or so to get it adjusted where I could wear it all day. Especially good while driving. I can have my hand on the grip, and most people are unaware. I wear over a tee and under a dress shirt. No one notices. If I am in an uncomfortable situation, like walking to my car at night with "strange" people around, I can have my hand on the grip, and appear innocuous. Total freedom of movement. Different strokes.

 

[bangswitch]

I have a shoulder rig, but only use it out in the woods. I find having the pistol off my waist makes climbing around gullies, going up and down hills, easier and more comfortable. During winter, if I'm wearing a heavy coat, I find it easier to draw from, as I only have to unzip the coat halfway and reach inside, no pulling up the coattail to get to a belt or IWB holster. FWIW, mine is a Galco Miami Special, I've had it 22 years. My G20 as well as my SR40c fit in it.

As for the horizontal carry "flashing" those behind you; it is concealed, so what would anyone but you know? Like someone said, it's really no different from walking past a gun lying on a table. Drawing from, or replacing into, the horizontal carry is no more dangerous than drawing from any other holster, AS LONG AS you maintain good trigger discipline.

 

[rskent]

Define "Bike".

Harley Davidson

As for the horizontal carry "flashing" those behind you; it is concealed, so what would anyone but you know? Like someone said, it's really no different from walking past a gun lying on a table. Drawing from, or replacing into, the horizontal carry is no more dangerous than drawing from any other holster, AS LONG AS you maintain good trigger discipline.

I know my fear of having a holstered pistol pointed at my wife is irrational. Are not irrational fears still fears. I know that the gun isn't just going to go off on its own. I also know that I ain’t gonna do it.

 

[Sam1911]

Drawing from, or replacing into, the horizontal carry is no more dangerous than drawing from any other holster, AS LONG AS you maintain good trigger discipline.

Well, that's not QUITE true. Remember, we follow ALL FOUR rules because they provide the layers of safety that make living with deadly weapons safe enough to practice.

So what you should say there is, "Drawing from, or replacing into, the horizontal carry is no more dangerous than drawing from any other holster, AS LONG AS you maintain good trigger discipline, and you don't point your gun at yourself or others at any time!".

(Yes, once it's safely tucked away and your hands are off of it, then you can assume it is a safe gun and not exercise extreme caution about the muzzle. Guns don't just go off when holstered. But sometimes they DO "just go off" in the moment of being handled and holstered.)

There ARE ways to safely draw from and holster in a shoulder or cross-draw holster, but they take a level of attention and technique that's higher than strong-side holsters require because you DO have to sweep the gun through an arc around you (or move yourself through the counter-arc) when orienting the muzzle to the holster mouth. Instead of simply ensuring that the space in front of you (that you can keep your eyes on) is clear, you have to be aware of, and clear, all the space you'll cover with that arc of swing. Otherwise there is a rather high potential that you'll pass your muzzle over folks standing around you and behind you (and even your own weak-side arm) while still handling the weapon.

Just because your finger isn't on the trigger DOES NOT MAKE THE GUN SAFE.

1) Treat all guns as always loaded.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4) Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

You CAN'T ignore Rule 2 just because you think you've got Rule 3 protecting you. ESPECIALLY in a moment of heightened risk, like when holstering the weapon. (That's when a LOT of negligent discharges happen.)

...

This is one reason shoulder holsters get a raised eyebrow from range staff, and are forbidden in competition. It isn't that they CAN'T be used safely, but that their safe use isn't intuitive and a whole lot of shooters have never really thought about what they're doing.

Hypothetically...
You ensure you're facing a safe backstop, pick up the gun, give it a visual check, load, top off your mag, press check, safety on -- all safe as can be -- and then sweep that gun around and point it at everyone on your left, at your own arm, and then at everyone behind you right at the proverbial "most dangerous moment of your day" (that moment of shoving your gun into a holster). Whoops!

I'm sure none of us here do that sort of thing, but because the heightened safety requirements are not intuitive, and because new shooters (or old ones) rarely have someone walk them through the proper technique, this is far too common.

 

[Flintknapper]

Harley Davidson

Very Good!

I know my fear of having a holstered pistol pointed at my wife is irrational.

Perhaps, but if we were to ask HER to weigh in on it, I bet I know how she's going to vote!

Are not irrational fears still fears.

Yes Sir.

I know that the gun isn't just going to go off on its own.

Well....true, IF the weapon is mechanically sound and all safety features are properly utilized.

I also know that I ain’t gonna do it.

That is your prerogative and if that gives you peace of mind then I say 'go with it'!

The only thing I would ask...is that you would not require others to follow suit, based on personal concerns. In reality...a holstered weapon is either safe or it is not.

With respect to horizontal shoulder carry (or butt down shoulder carry, yes that exists too), there are special concerns any time the weapon is being handled. Let's just get that out of the way...because it is a FACT too plain to require argument.

IF the weapon were to discharge while drawing, holstering or re-holstering (regardless the reason), the 'potential' for disaster 'can' be greater than with certain other modes of carry.

Why?

Simple, owing to the position of the holster (but depending upon environment), a bullet launched horizontally is more likely to travel a greater distance, increasing the chance it might strike something we don't want it to.

As for butt down carry (rare these days), you risk taking out your own Brachial or Subclavain artery when the bullet goes up through your armpit. EEK!

So, clearly...the need for good finger discipline and all the other GOOD gun handling skills (safeties on, SLOW, deliberate re-holstering) needs to be ingrained, not that is it less important for other modes of carry.

You have not yet told us if the vertical rig(s) you are considering have a retention strap or are a 'pull through' design. You might be surprised to know they have their own strengths and weaknesses.

IMO, horizontal shoulder carry is the most versatile, easiest to draw from, allows weak hand access (in most cases) and provides the best retention (believe it or not). But if having that muzzle pointed down, is the most important thing for you, I certainly support your decision.

 

[Flintknapper]

Sam1911 wrote:

Well, that's not QUITE true. Remember, we follow ALL FOUR rules because they provide the layers of safety that make living with deadly weapons safe enough to practice.

So what you should say there is, "Drawing from, or replacing into, the horizontal carry is no more dangerous than drawing from any other holster, AS LONG AS you maintain good trigger discipline, and you don't point your gun at yourself or others at any time!".

(Yes, once it's safely tucked away and your hands are off of it, then you can assume it is a safe gun and not exercise extreme caution about the muzzle. Guns don't just go off when holstered. But sometimes they DO "just go off" in the moment of being handled and holstered.)

^^^^^^ I would agree with this nearly word for word.

There ARE ways to safely draw from and holster in a shoulder or cross-draw holster, but they take a level of attention and technique that's higher than strong-side holsters require

Well....maybe, but it is minimal and the REAL argument would be: Can a person interested in carrying in a shoulder rig, learn to be as safe and efficient as possible? And the answer to that.....is a resounding YES, provided they have normal articulation of the wrists and elbow.

I think most discussions concerning shoulder carry (perhaps inadvertently), degrade into a (my way is better than your way) kind of thing and the 'mission' (to realistically present the strengths and weaknesses) gets lost.

because you DO have to sweep the gun through an arc around you (or move yourself through the counter-arc) when orienting the muzzle to the holster mouth.

Yes, with the most common (and CORRECT draw stroke) you will bring the weapon (muzzle facing down) around your body outline (trace your body) about 90°, before presenting to your support hand. There is an 'abbreviated' draw stroke (perhaps what most folks envision) that is pulled across the chest in situations where you need to quickly address a threat to your weak side, or when seated. It is an extremely fast and short presentation and does involve some voluntary risk as the muzzle WILL for a brief time cover your bicep.

Not hard to do, but does require a modicum of practice. Your point about orienting the muzzle to reholster is valid and coincidentally applies to the first draw stroke mentioned above as well. That "arc" is much smaller than you might imagine (I will post pics later in this thread) but it certainly exists.

Instead of simply ensuring that the space in front of you (that you can keep your eyes on) is clear, you have to be aware of, and clear, all the space you'll cover with that arc of swing.

Again, this is an example where the temptation to 'compare' shoulder carry to some other mode of carry pops up. Of course, I am NOT suggesting that shoulder carry is the 'best' mode of carry. Simply...sharing a few things I have learned over the years...in hopes of dispelling some myths or at least providing reasonable, achievable solutions.

Otherwise there is a rather high potential that you'll pass your muzzle over folks standing around you and behind you (and even your own weak-side arm) while still handling the weapon.

Yes! I've been the unfortunate witness of more than a few folks doing just this, regardless their mode of carry. However, I would be the very first to concede that 'proper/safe' shoulder carry involves some amount of 'thought' given to the mechanics of it, the same as belt carry, IWB, etc...

I hope this thread will survive long enough....that we can share our experiences and exchange ideas, so that someone new to shoulder carry, or maybe just someone who has not really thought it out...will benefit from it.

Just wait until we get to the 'retention' part of it, that's always a fun one.


Flint.

 

[Flintknapper]

A thread posted about 5 years ago addressing some concerns (shoulder carry).

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31470&hilit=shoulder+holster+solutions

Take the time to read it...if you are interested in learning a couple of draw strokes that mitigate the arc/muzzle sweep that is commonly thought to exist with horizontal shoulder carry.

Once we've discussed this, we can move on to 'retention', which is NOT the problem many folks think it is.

Then of course, we will need to discuss the many WHAT IF'S, I.E. (bear-hug, pinned to wall, arm pinned, escaping the Hungarian pretzel hold).

 

[WestKentucky]

My warm weather carry is a j frame IWB, then in cold weather when I wear a coat I carry vertical shoulder holster with a 6"44 mag. Very very different beasts for sure, but the 44 weighs 6 times what my j frame does but is just as comfy. I sometimes carry my m9 in the same holster. There is definitely a larger sweeping arc during draw but it works very well. Not as fast, not as easily re-holstered, but very usable.