Seancass
Member
i coulda sworn this thread was about posting pics....
Show me your Mosin
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Cosmoline: Here's an ethical question... What if you purchased a Tula 91/30 that someone had previosly hacked beyond repair for $45? Then would it be permissible to throw it in an ATI stock? BTW, this one retains the original rear sight, but has a really nice thin blade front.
Irons are great!
Cosmoline,
I would agree with you on the lost art of iron sights.
I love good iron sights.
That's one reason I took this broken rifle and make it in to something that I could use.
I needed a good quick target acquistion carbine. The issue sights on the M-44 do leave something to be desired. I put the mojo on it but have switched back and forth a few times.
I shot iron sights from the time I could hold the my old mans win. model 61 pump 22. (Maybe 6 years old) Moved on to a Marlin Model 60 with irons later becuase I thought auto was better. (Wrong)
My first "real rifle" was a 30-40 krag as issued at maybe 10 years old.
I wish I had that rifle now. I would have never changed that rifle.
I traded it to a cousin for a 94 Winchester in 30-30 when I was in highschool. The 94 was another great set of iron sights. Killed a lot of game with that rifle. Talk about a rate of fire.
I don't think I even shot a rifle with a scope on it until I was 16. Dad is old school.
I shot "High BRM" in basic with an iron sighted M16. By the time I left the Army/NG we had just started to be issued glass sights.
I have at least 15 rifles in the safe now. I think only 2 have glass on them.
One a M-77 in .257 bob. The other a Turk Mauser sporter project I did.
Hard to admit but one of the best sets of iron sights I have ever used is on a French Rifle. The 49/56. Those sights just seem to work. To bad ammo is expensive. Maybe conversion to 7.62 ...
Then I suppose we would be at odds again.
At least we agree on a person knowing how to use iron sights as a good thing.
jl
Cosmoline,
I would agree with you on the lost art of iron sights.
I love good iron sights.
That's one reason I took this broken rifle and make it in to something that I could use.
I needed a good quick target acquistion carbine. The issue sights on the M-44 do leave something to be desired. I put the mojo on it but have switched back and forth a few times.
I shot iron sights from the time I could hold the my old mans win. model 61 pump 22. (Maybe 6 years old) Moved on to a Marlin Model 60 with irons later becuase I thought auto was better. (Wrong)
My first "real rifle" was a 30-40 krag as issued at maybe 10 years old.
I wish I had that rifle now. I would have never changed that rifle.
I traded it to a cousin for a 94 Winchester in 30-30 when I was in highschool. The 94 was another great set of iron sights. Killed a lot of game with that rifle. Talk about a rate of fire.
I don't think I even shot a rifle with a scope on it until I was 16. Dad is old school.
I shot "High BRM" in basic with an iron sighted M16. By the time I left the Army/NG we had just started to be issued glass sights.
I have at least 15 rifles in the safe now. I think only 2 have glass on them.
One a M-77 in .257 bob. The other a Turk Mauser sporter project I did.
Hard to admit but one of the best sets of iron sights I have ever used is on a French Rifle. The 49/56. Those sights just seem to work. To bad ammo is expensive. Maybe conversion to 7.62 ...
Then I suppose we would be at odds again.
At least we agree on a person knowing how to use iron sights as a good thing.
jl
Cosmoline,
I have nothing against iron sights, in fact i have other rifles i shoot with iron sights, and I do know how to shoot using iron sights, and using a straight bolt. If that's what i wanted out of this mosin I wouldn't have changed it. I may even buy another and keep it as is.
The point is I wanted a project. I don't see why you'd assume that those of us who modify them can't use them without modifications.:banghead:
Maybe my eyesight isn't what yours is, but the scope helps me hit targets that i can't see without it. by modifying this rifle I've extended the range at which i can use it effectively. And don't say it's because i don't know how to use it, I just like to be able to clearly see what I'm shooting.
Is anyone going to post some more pics or has this thread become just another argument?
I have nothing against iron sights, in fact i have other rifles i shoot with iron sights, and I do know how to shoot using iron sights, and using a straight bolt. If that's what i wanted out of this mosin I wouldn't have changed it. I may even buy another and keep it as is.
The point is I wanted a project. I don't see why you'd assume that those of us who modify them can't use them without modifications.:banghead:
Maybe my eyesight isn't what yours is, but the scope helps me hit targets that i can't see without it. by modifying this rifle I've extended the range at which i can use it effectively. And don't say it's because i don't know how to use it, I just like to be able to clearly see what I'm shooting.
Is anyone going to post some more pics or has this thread become just another argument?
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karlsgunbunker
Member
My M38 (No permanent mods were made to this rifle)
Gord
Member
I'm not a fan of the LER/EER scope look, so if I ever scope a Mosin, it will be with an ATI scope mount and bolt kit. Oughta make a few people wince.
It's your money, do what you want with it. If that means screwing around with old milsurps to see what you can turn a clunker into, more power to ya. If it means hoarding dozens and hundreds of Makarovs and Mosins for preservation purposes instead of using them, more power to ya then, too.
Me, I'm in the "own and shoot" camp, and I'm not sure why some people think that every single xy ever produced should be put into cold storage. Yeah, old guns in original condition are cool, but we don't need to "preserve" all eight million of them...
I'm mildly annoyed that while I can't find a Bulgie Mak to shoot and enjoy, there are probably a dozen people on Gunboards with 38 of them sitting in a bucket of axle grease at the back of their safes, waiting for all the rest to disintegrate so they can step up as the One True Collector and brag about having their gun in the Smithsonian.
Anyway, back to the actual topic.
Guys, how are the ATI stocks? I've heard that they're fairly cheap as far as fit and finish go - did yours require hand-fitting or futzing with? How are they holding up?
It's your money, do what you want with it. If that means screwing around with old milsurps to see what you can turn a clunker into, more power to ya. If it means hoarding dozens and hundreds of Makarovs and Mosins for preservation purposes instead of using them, more power to ya then, too.
Me, I'm in the "own and shoot" camp, and I'm not sure why some people think that every single xy ever produced should be put into cold storage. Yeah, old guns in original condition are cool, but we don't need to "preserve" all eight million of them...
I'm mildly annoyed that while I can't find a Bulgie Mak to shoot and enjoy, there are probably a dozen people on Gunboards with 38 of them sitting in a bucket of axle grease at the back of their safes, waiting for all the rest to disintegrate so they can step up as the One True Collector and brag about having their gun in the Smithsonian.
Anyway, back to the actual topic.
Guys, how are the ATI stocks? I've heard that they're fairly cheap as far as fit and finish go - did yours require hand-fitting or futzing with? How are they holding up?
Cosmoline
Member
It's always permissible, and often advisable, to have an ATI or other sporter stock to put the rifle in. I don't know who objects to that. My objections are with permanent alterations to the steel of the rifle or a fundamental hacking of the original stock.
Nobody here suggested you shouldn't shoot your rifles. Where did you get this idea? Shooting it is a far cry from hacking the bejesus out of it.
If you want to put a scope on it, fine! I've done it myself, but you can do it without hacking or drilling the rifle.
I have two M44's, one Russian in original condition, and one that came to me altered, and I continued working on it.
And yes, a Mosin was hurt during the filming of this rifle -- please don't alert PETM (People for the Ethical Treatment of Mosins), the Mosin was injured when I found it, although it will never be the same, I did nurse it back to usefulness as best I could.
All kidding aside, I was looking for a short barrelled bolt gun, and also thinking about 'scout style' rifles, so this seemed like a great way to have some fun and build it. I have had a great time shooting it.
I had also hoped to take it deer hunting, but decided that the trigger, safety, and bolt are not really hunting worthy. If I had to I'm sure I could hunt with it, but it would not be an optimal experience. I share that because if anyone is thinking about making a Mosin into a hunting rifle, IMHO you could do better with a used hunting rifle.
In the spirit of the thread, here's a pic:
And yes, a Mosin was hurt during the filming of this rifle -- please don't alert PETM (People for the Ethical Treatment of Mosins), the Mosin was injured when I found it, although it will never be the same, I did nurse it back to usefulness as best I could.
All kidding aside, I was looking for a short barrelled bolt gun, and also thinking about 'scout style' rifles, so this seemed like a great way to have some fun and build it. I have had a great time shooting it.
I had also hoped to take it deer hunting, but decided that the trigger, safety, and bolt are not really hunting worthy. If I had to I'm sure I could hunt with it, but it would not be an optimal experience. I share that because if anyone is thinking about making a Mosin into a hunting rifle, IMHO you could do better with a used hunting rifle.
In the spirit of the thread, here's a pic:
english kanigit
Member
As much as I agree with Cosmoline about butchering a gun, that doesn't matter.
What does matter is that you bought it, and have modified your property to suit your needs.
I am downright fanatical about milsurps and will not hesitate to extoll the virtues of unmodified rifles. However, your choice is just that: your choice.
BTW, anyone who hacks up a Finn M27 or Winchester 1895 Russian will get slapped or worse.
ek
What does matter is that you bought it, and have modified your property to suit your needs.
I am downright fanatical about milsurps and will not hesitate to extoll the virtues of unmodified rifles. However, your choice is just that: your choice.
BTW, anyone who hacks up a Finn M27 or Winchester 1895 Russian will get slapped or worse.
ek
White Horseradish
Member
Large part of the problem I have with folks "sporterizing" is that often the utility of the rifle isn't increased any.
For instance, I have seen many a Mosin with the bolt handle heated and bent over to make it look more "sporty" or "snipery". That actually makes it a lot harder to use because it shortens the lever and brings the ball too close to the stock to grasp. The ATI bolt handle has been known to fall off at exactly the wrong moment because the screw snapped. And IMNSHO, it really looks like crap.
What I don't understand is why it is possible to make a clamp-on mount for a Mauser that puts the scope in the standard position and not possible to do the same for a Mosin.
For instance, I have seen many a Mosin with the bolt handle heated and bent over to make it look more "sporty" or "snipery". That actually makes it a lot harder to use because it shortens the lever and brings the ball too close to the stock to grasp. The ATI bolt handle has been known to fall off at exactly the wrong moment because the screw snapped. And IMNSHO, it really looks like crap.
What I don't understand is why it is possible to make a clamp-on mount for a Mauser that puts the scope in the standard position and not possible to do the same for a Mosin.
I was kinda concerned about the ATI bolt handle coming off, fortunately The tap they sent me broke off in the hole 
so I had to weld the handle on anyway.
I noticed after a few dozen rounds the action has scooted back a little in the ATI stock, has anyone else had this happen? It's still snug so I think it was just settling in with the recoil.
so I had to weld the handle on anyway.I noticed after a few dozen rounds the action has scooted back a little in the ATI stock, has anyone else had this happen? It's still snug so I think it was just settling in with the recoil.
I bought a Mosin back in the early 90s for $100. I don't even know what it is, has been in my safe unfired since then.
Here's a couple of crappy pics of it. can you guys tell me what model it is and around what year?
edit: looks like a M1891 according to my Military Small Arms of the 20th Century book. I don't have any of the Mosin books that have more info.
edit 2: cosmoline will be glad to know that the rifle is in beautiful shape, and I haven't done anything to it, and won't.
Here's a couple of crappy pics of it. can you guys tell me what model it is and around what year?
edit: looks like a M1891 according to my Military Small Arms of the 20th Century book. I don't have any of the Mosin books that have more info.
edit 2: cosmoline will be glad to know that the rifle is in beautiful shape, and I haven't done anything to it, and won't.
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Cosmoline
Member
Finn M-91. No way is that a straight Czarist. That's a Finn or I'll eat my socks. Look at the pine tar finish and the sling swivels. Probably a Tikka rebuild ("T" in an upside down triangle on the barrel) from the 40's but if you're lucky it's earlier and worth more. Either way a C note is a heck of a good deal. If you take it apart you can see when and where the receiver was built by looking at the underside of the tang. Lots of them were built on true antique receivers, even dating back to the early years when the Russians farmed the work out to the French.
You were wise to leave it intact. If you want to take it afield I'd suggest removing the handguard and setting it aside because it's not a terribly sturdy design. They're gripped onto the barrel by little brass strips pinched by the bands which also effects accuracy somewhat. They can get torn off by a good blow, and the design was improved with later Mosins. Many of the M-91's stateside lost their handguards in long ago wars so a matching one is a good find. Remember though that the bands are unscrewed the "wrong" way--lefty tighty.
You were wise to leave it intact. If you want to take it afield I'd suggest removing the handguard and setting it aside because it's not a terribly sturdy design. They're gripped onto the barrel by little brass strips pinched by the bands which also effects accuracy somewhat. They can get torn off by a good blow, and the design was improved with later Mosins. Many of the M-91's stateside lost their handguards in long ago wars so a matching one is a good find. Remember though that the bands are unscrewed the "wrong" way--lefty tighty.
Gord
Member
Cosmoline said:
Apologies - none of my post was aimed at you.
I, too, prefer to preserve my milsurps in original configuration but I don't understand some of the more fanatical guys who think that every single firearm of a certain sort should be locked up in an airtight vacuum box for the eternal lookie-lookie enjoyment of no one in particular.I have three Mosins myself, going to pick up my 4th tomorrow - first one had its stock sanded due to looking horrible and being covered with gunk I didn't know how to get out at the time, the others are (and will stay) untouched, unless this 91/30 is exceedingly accurate... then it may get an ATI synth stock and scope mount/bolt kit. Truth be told, I'm okay with drilling and tapping for the mount, but the thought of hacking up the bolt gives me pause.
I'll be right there with you crying over a Finn or Remington getting bubba'd, but I'm not going to shed any tears if history loses one serial number out of 500,000 for any given year of Izhevsk production.
BusMaster007
Member
Glad I saw this thread ---
No pix to share yet, but...
I was given an old M-N that had a bent bolt handle; the wood stock had been chopped down; and the magazine floorplate had been screwed in
.
The wood stock is cracked, but it looks like a shooter.
I also bought an M-N 91/30 that is in 'OK shape' with the straight-out bolt handle.
I haven't fired either one - yet.
What I did decide to do was get another floorplate for the shorty; get an ATI stock; get the rear-sight scope mount; and I had the bolt-handles switched out.
Now, the 'shorty', whatever its origins are, will be strictly one of the 'truck gun' or 'SHTF' types of fun guns.
The 91/30 looks way better with the turned-down bolt handle, and I can consider fixing her up with a Russian scope someday, making for a nice looking range gun.
Looks like the ATI stock is a good choice.
No pix to share yet, but...
I was given an old M-N that had a bent bolt handle; the wood stock had been chopped down; and the magazine floorplate had been screwed in
.The wood stock is cracked, but it looks like a shooter.
I also bought an M-N 91/30 that is in 'OK shape' with the straight-out bolt handle.
I haven't fired either one - yet.
What I did decide to do was get another floorplate for the shorty; get an ATI stock; get the rear-sight scope mount; and I had the bolt-handles switched out.
Now, the 'shorty', whatever its origins are, will be strictly one of the 'truck gun' or 'SHTF' types of fun guns.
The 91/30 looks way better with the turned-down bolt handle, and I can consider fixing her up with a Russian scope someday, making for a nice looking range gun.
Looks like the ATI stock is a good choice.
Cosmoline
Member
Here's a laminated 91/30 from 1937, Izhevsk Arsenal and a Nagant 1895, also from 1937. I just picked up the pair. Onward, Comrades!
Further info on my M-91 up in post #37. Any identification help appreciated, since I don't have one of those Mosin collector books.
Rifle is 51.25" long. Straight bolt handle. The bolt has a very large "S" on it, and then a smaller 5 digit number 25xxx. The flip-up rear sight is marked (on the flipup part) with numbers going up to 32 on the left side, and 31 on the right side.
There are many markings on top on the receiver behind the rear sight. There's a couple of symbols, I guess you would say crests, with something like "II K" underneath them. Also there is a bow & arrow symbol. There's 2 lines of wording in some foreign-looking letters... and there's a couple of "SA"s stamped too.
any help appreciated.
Rifle is 51.25" long. Straight bolt handle. The bolt has a very large "S" on it, and then a smaller 5 digit number 25xxx. The flip-up rear sight is marked (on the flipup part) with numbers going up to 32 on the left side, and 31 on the right side.
There are many markings on top on the receiver behind the rear sight. There's a couple of symbols, I guess you would say crests, with something like "II K" underneath them. Also there is a bow & arrow symbol. There's 2 lines of wording in some foreign-looking letters... and there's a couple of "SA"s stamped too.
any help appreciated.
Gonefission
Member
I believe that makes it Finish
Cosmoline
Member
That makes it a Finnish capture, at least. But the description of the two lines of words sound Czarist so it might not be a full rebore. Before getting too excited what we really need is a PRECISE description of exactly what symbols and words are on the barrel shank and the receiver. Most of all what are the dates and brand marks in the center. The markings on the bolt, sights and elsewhere are not as important. Those may well be borrowed parts from other rifles long gone.
I tried to take some close pics with my digital camera, but it won't focus that close. Here's the best one...
the little thing behind the crest, in the middle of the flat area on top of the receiver, is a crown on top of something...can't tell...
you can see the bow & arrow symbol on the round part of the receiver right in front of the flat part. The arrow is pointed forward toward the rear sight. The crest, or coat of arms, or whatever it is, right behind the rear sight looks like the same symbol as the one on the flat area. You can't see the two lines of letters at all, but they are in the middle of the rounded top of the receiver, between the first crest behind the rear sight and the bow & arrow. There's a number between the 2 lines of letters and the bow & arrow also (88xxx)
the little thing behind the crest, in the middle of the flat area on top of the receiver, is a crown on top of something...can't tell...
you can see the bow & arrow symbol on the round part of the receiver right in front of the flat part. The arrow is pointed forward toward the rear sight. The crest, or coat of arms, or whatever it is, right behind the rear sight looks like the same symbol as the one on the flat area. You can't see the two lines of letters at all, but they are in the middle of the rounded top of the receiver, between the first crest behind the rear sight and the bow & arrow. There's a number between the 2 lines of letters and the bow & arrow also (88xxx)
Cosmoline
Member
That's a good find. It's an Izhevsk arsenal Russian M-91 that was probably in Finnish hands after the revolution and was restocked and had a new rear sight put on but no new barrel. I haven't seen too many of these. The captured 91/30's are a lot more common.
What's the date on there? It should be four digits with a small symbol at the end right above the SN. And are there "D" bore stamps on it? There may also be a "41" stamp on it.
What's the date on there? It should be four digits with a small symbol at the end right above the SN. And are there "D" bore stamps on it? There may also be a "41" stamp on it.
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