SHTF: Point/Counterpoint

[Logan5]

In all honesty, despite how I start drooling and hop all over any thread with "zombie" in the title, I don't buy guns with "SHTF" in mind. I buy guns because I love shooting them, for historical interest, because they're normal, because they're wierd, because they're a particularly good or bad design, etc, etc... Suitability for TEOTEWAKI, when you've got multiple safes full, is at best a half hearted justification for some of them.
I deplyed for Katrina/Rita relief, and spent over a month hauling all over east Texas and western Louisiana armed with nothing but my swiss army knife and gerber multitool. There were times when I was deeply unhappy with that, and I did see firearms come into play in both good and bad situations. I saw plenty of ugly things that changed the way I look at "SHTF" scenarios.
The major pearl of wisdom I took away from it... it made me want to get training, like EMT or Wilderness EMT, because there is nothing worse than being totally helpless while someone you care about is down with an injury. Not even being Sean Penn on the loose with a shotgun.

 

[arthurcw]

The major pearl of wisdom I took away from it... it made me want to get training,

Amen. While I do believe that every person interested in firearms should try to one at least one military styled long arm and hand gun (to fulfill our responsibility under the Second Amendment.). And those can come in quite handy in any SHTF-Bug-In-Bug-Out-Natual-Disaster-Riot-Terrorist-Induced-Chaos-Blue-Hemeted-Zombie-Invation situation. All the coolio toys in the world will not help at all without some idea of what you are doing.

I know these types of shows are staged quite a bit, but watch something like Man vs. Wild and the point is made quite clear. A whole lot of knowledge and a few tools you will do more good for your survival than a Tactical Wheelbarrow full of gadgets and no training.

Out of curiousity I typed in "SHTF" in a search. It revealed 129 pages of threads on this topic. It appears many are concerned with a SHTF scenario. But what if you are someone who doesn't think it will happen in your lifetime

?

Already has happened to me. It was called Rita and I dodged a bullet. Not gonna let that happen again. I will be much more prepared next time.

What firearms do you have (and maybe why) if you aren't part of TEOTWAWKI/SHTF group.

I have fun guns, CCW’s, C&R’s, and gun’s I just want to have. A gun’s suitability as a SHTF gun may be on the list of attributes for more modern firearms but it’s only on the list, it’s not #1. My SKS is a pretty good SHTF gun… but I like it because it’s fun to shoot. My Win Mod 94 30/30 is a great SHTF bug out gun… but I like it because it fulfills my tacit Texas Constitutional requirement to own a lever gun.

I do expect some flames. Go ahead, it's OK!

Nope, don’t have any flammenwerfers. Although I do still need to get a .357 snubbie, does that count?


Edited to add: There’s a great SHTF combo... .357 wheel gun and a .357 lever gun. That's how I'll justify those purchases to the Mrs. “They're for the End of the World, Honey.”

 

[mmike87]

Keep in mind that SHTF due to natural disaster is a CERTAINTY. It IS going to happen. And, since natural disasters cannot be reliably predicted, assuming that one isn't possibly going to happen in your lifetime is simply denial.

You can believe that terrorists won't nuke is. Maybe they won't. But we WILL have a huge earthquake, tsunami, volcano, asteroid, floods, ice age, etc ... because they have all happened before and you cannot logically expect them not to happen again just because we're here.

 

[Refirignis]

Tools are helpful, but one won't last long without any knowledge.

Basic:

US Army Survival Manual: FM 21-76. Google it for free PDF, but printing that out on 8.5x11 isn't as appealing.

Advanced, All-Encompassing:

Gregory J. Davenport's Books

Reviews of the US Army Manual say that "Wilderness Survival by Gregory J. Davenport" is full of precise information. Get both.

Nature is the universe's recycler, and survival is all about trying not to become fertilizer.

 

[buzz_knox]

SHTF will happen to the majority of people at one time or another. The form it will take, the severity of the event, and the number of individuals affected are the only uncertainties. Whether it is a house fire, getting trapped in a vehicle in a snowstorm, major natural disaster or war, any situation where you suffer loss of life or limb unless you act should be considered a true SHTF moment.

 

[ozwyn]

I think if you look at "real" SHTF events, we get them in the United States at LEAST 1 every 10 years in a different part of the country.

Katrina for this decade
LA riots for the 1990's

I get a little fuzzy for a 90's and 70's events.

However, SHTF events of a localized nature happen, and the more we think about it, the more examples you may discover.

Define a SHTF event - loss of control by local, state and/or federal agencies in an area for more than 3 days accompanied by violent behavior requiring personal/property defense, typically with a loss of common amenities. (power, water, sewer/septic) That's my quick and dirty definition.

SHTF preparations comes in 4 varieties

1) Weapons and ammo (the focus here)
2) Food and household supplies (food, waters, toilet paper, wet wipes, first aid supplies, booze, means to prepare food, fuel, whatever)
3) Plans and strategies (bug out plans, bug in plans, supply management, whatever)
4) training and practice (for cooking/living without water and power, shooting practice)

Accept this as proof i read too many SHTF threads.

 

[Lonestar]

Out of curiousity I typed in "SHTF" in a search. It revealed 129 pages of threads on this topic. It appears many are concerned with a SHTF scenario. But what if you are someone who doesn't think it will happen in your lifetime?

What firearms do you have (and maybe why) if you aren't part of TEOTWAWKI/SHTF group.

I do expect some flames. Go ahead, it's OK!

If you don't believe in the possibility of a SHTF event in your lifetime then why even own a firearm? If you like shooting then get a single shot .22 rifle and that is it. Its a firearm and you can target shoot with it. That is all you will need

I don't believe my house will burn down in my lifetime, but I have Home onwers insurance, just in case. I don't think I'm going to die in the next 15 years, but I got term life insurance just in case. My home and business has not been robbed, but I have a CCW and a few handguns just in case.

Government agencies have been putting the word out to prepare for disasters, yet most people ignore that advice and are still not ready, even for a minor disaster shuting down services for a few days. The lesson you should take away from Katrina is if some SHTF event happen in your area, you might be stuck alone with no help from the outside world, and you will be stuck with some ill prepared and desperate people, along with criminals who will take advantage of the lack of law enforcement. Having any firearm in your home would be helpful, but how confident would you feel with just a .22 single shot rifle and a dozen .22 rounds? Same as having only $10,000 in life insurance or home owners insurance. Its better that nothing, but having more would make the situation better.

I believe there is a possiblity of a SHTF event happening, but I'm reasonably prepared. I have extra food and water in the house, and I have a some equipment that can be used if an emergency occurs, including my firearms. Nothing fancy, just a couple of handguns, and a mossberg 500 shotgun. Same stuff I like to shoot at the range. Some guys will be carrying 100lb packs of food and weapons and intend to walk out into the wilderness if the SHTF. I'm hitting the woods a few days later to collect some goodies after the chubby guys drop dead of heartattacks for carrying 20 lb more ammo and equipment that a Army Ranger that is young and in shape.

 

[SSN Vet]

O.K. I'll play.....

SHTF (as I see it from where I sit....northern climate, small town, semi-rural, living on several acres of property) is more about....

1. the ability to store fuel
2. the ability to store/grow food.
3. the ability to protect what you have from those who
want to take it away from you.
4. the ability to perform basic medical functions.

the best solutions I see are...

1. convert to diesel.....
diesel truck
diesel genertator
oil fired heat/hot water...used only to suppliment your wood heat.

you can get 275 gal. tanks at Home Depot in the off season for
~$150/ea. So get several and build a shed/containment for them.

Your local fire chief is going to want to know about and permit that
kind of fuel storage...I personally would want very few people to know
I have it.

2. Start gardening now and be prepared to step it up.
Learn how to butcher your own meet (domestic or wild).
Learn how to keep a milk cow.

3. IMO, this has more to do with building a team of like minded folks and
cooperating on all of the above.....as well as security.

All this sounds quite a bit like THE ABILITY TO LIVE LIKE A FARMER.

Having a decent supply of anti-biotics on hand would go a lot further than having an arsenol.

But.....a case of SKS rifles stashed away with a thousand rounds of ammo couldn't hurt either

 

[MaterDei]

This post sure has strayed from Squidward's real question. Why should I mess things up?

Squidward, you should not be planning for what you think will happen. You should be planning for what you think 'reasonably could happen' at a minimum and what 'possibly could happen' optimally.

Personally, not counting my military service, I've been involved in 2 SHTF scenarios. One was a home invasion and the other was a hurricane (Rita). I realize that a hurricane can be prepared for as they near (somewhat) but most others, such as a home invasion, cannot. I suggest you at least ask yourself what reasonably could happen and prepare accordingly.

To your original question, if you are not at all interested in preparing for some sort of TEOTWAWKI or SHTF then just buy what interests you. My only recommendation is that you don't buy junk. Generally speaking, you get what you pay for when buying firearms. You will not likely regret buying quality.

 

[Green Lantern]

Most of us have all the guns we need or SHTF, but most of us don't have the food, water, fuel, etc... for SHTF.

+1, and I count myself in this lecture. I do have some of each "put back," but I feel like I need more.

Ten SKS rifles and 10,000 rounds of 7.62 may or may NOT be useful, depending on what exactly the SHTF situation consists of.

Like the big ice storm we had about a decade ago. Not so much. On the other hand, food and water and medicine - I'd say almost ALWAYS useful!

Not to say guns 'n ammo aren't important to have stocked up. Just prioritize, eh?

We become too dependant on the govt to make everything better... why do you think everyone involved in Katrina bitched about not getting help from the govt? Because that's where they were used to getting everything from...

If we truly wanted less govt and more freedoms, we'd start taking care of ourselves and stop depending on the govt to always make it better...

+1....BILLION!

It's not just disaster victims either. Anyone who says or thinks "You/I don't need guns or self-defense mindsets, the POLICE will PROTECT us! It's their JOB!" is in this category of people that are highly likely to be in for a "rude awakening" at some point when they get a harsh taste of REALITY!

For a while there...after Katrina, the Bird Flu scare, the next hurricane season...the .Gov was actually trying to TELL people this. That **THEY** need to make preparations **THEMSELVES** because the government **CANNOT** take care of everyone!!!

Now that we've had a bit of "regime change," I have to wonder if this message will continue, be silenced, or worst of all...be altered into something like "don't worry about a thing, little sheep....the Democrats are here to make it all better for you. WE'LL protect you..."

 

[Joe Demko]

Hi, everybody, my name is Joe and I'm a Recovering Survivalist.
(Hi Joe!)

I first became a survivalist in my late teens during the Carter Administration. I purchased my first AR-15 and commenced to hoarding up food and ammunition...because I knew, I mean I KNEW, that the godless commienest Rooshuns were fixing to nuke us any minute. By golly, I wasn't going to be caught with my pants down.
As I got older, more educated, and experienced with the world, I found lots of other things over which to keep myself in a high state of agitation and justify stll more hoarding. Hoarding, you know, costs money whether you buy a little at a time or in bulk.
Well, the Russkis never did nuke us, the urban poor did not rise up in a bolshevik-backed revolution, AIDS proved not to be an easily transmitted planet-scouring pandemic, the Y2K bug didn't crash our whole infrastructure, and an asteroid didn't smash into the Earth. At least none of these things have happened yet.
Does that mean that TS will never HTF? Heck no! TSHTF every day, all over the world. I no longer waste precious lifespan and income, however, preparing for some kind of Mad Max Wet Dream.
If we get hit by an asteroid, or there is a Captain Tripps-style pandemic, or a full-scale nuclear war, survival will be luck of the draw. Having a Mountain of Stuff won't do you one damned bit of good when it turns out you aren't one of the lucky ones immune to the superflu. If Providence smiles on you that day, and you survive the proximate cause of the megadeath, there'll be a Mountain of Stuff left lying around for you to use. Just pick through the corpses and help yourself.
I'm betting that TS will HTF on a localized basis many times. I prepare for that, now. I keep a couple weeks of food on hand. I have some guns and some ammunition, too. Other stuff as well; but I no longer have delusions that I must be ready to crawl out of the ashes and, by dint of my superior preparations, carve out a new civilization on the face of the Urth.
Get to know your neighbors; know the ones you can count on for mutual support.
Learn some skills.
Plan an evacuation route out of your area should TS choose to really HTF there.
Pay attention to current events and mundane stuff like weather forecasts; hurricanes and blizzards and such seldom strike with no notice.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled fantasy of yourself as Warrior-King of the Post-Apocalyptic Wasteland. If I figure in your fantasies, I'd just as soon you didn't imagine me in leather chaps and a codpiece, though.

 

[Justin]

Joe Demko wins the thread.