SHTF Shotguns ...
- Thread starter axeman_g
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axeman_g
Member
handguns ...
"I personally think a SHTF arsenal should be a super accurate handgun, a high powered handgun"
Why did'nt you just say an accurate high powered handgun?[
Because it gives me an excuse to have more then one ... a rapier and a broad axe type of arrangement.
AUadvisor ... I will assume from your handle and locale that your dayjob is as an advisor at Auburn. I was therefore not suprised to receive such a simple question. Did the different colors help?
GO DAWGS !!!
"I personally think a SHTF arsenal should be a super accurate handgun, a high powered handgun"
Why did'nt you just say an accurate high powered handgun?[
Because it gives me an excuse to have more then one ... a rapier and a broad axe type of arrangement.
AUadvisor ... I will assume from your handle and locale that your dayjob is as an advisor at Auburn. I was therefore not suprised to receive such a simple question. Did the different colors help?
GO DAWGS !!!
"The weakest link is not the shotgun nor the ammo. We are.
Unless you've practiced with your weapon so you can operate it safely and effectively under emergency conditions, that weapon is but an illusion of security."
Dave, I am not telling you anything new I am sure. But, if you posted a follow up to this thread, something like: Ok, you have chosen you SHTF shotgun, now how do you train with it ? You would get one or two weak replies. I have tried several times to start threads about dry fire drills, live fire drills, training of all kinds. Some of them didn't receive one reply.
On these boards, software doesn't sell. Hardware will bring plenty of replies along with pictures of bone stock guns that anyone could see in the company catalog. Ask about what really matters and everyone is too busy on the thread about their favorite 9mm to waste time even TALKING about training.
Ok, my answer to the topic at hand: 12 gauge pump shotgun. I don't think it makes much difference which one. Personally, I chose a Remington 870 with a 14" Vang Comped barrel, ghost rings sights, no magazine tube extension, a Hogue 12" LOP stock, a single point sling from The Wilderness, a six round side saddle, and a Surefire 918FA weapon light.
I think any decent pump shotgun would be just as good starting with the Mossberg 500 and going up from there. I wouldn't trust a chinese pump shotgun or a Russian pump shotgun personally.
Unless you've practiced with your weapon so you can operate it safely and effectively under emergency conditions, that weapon is but an illusion of security."
Dave, I am not telling you anything new I am sure. But, if you posted a follow up to this thread, something like: Ok, you have chosen you SHTF shotgun, now how do you train with it ? You would get one or two weak replies. I have tried several times to start threads about dry fire drills, live fire drills, training of all kinds. Some of them didn't receive one reply.
On these boards, software doesn't sell. Hardware will bring plenty of replies along with pictures of bone stock guns that anyone could see in the company catalog. Ask about what really matters and everyone is too busy on the thread about their favorite 9mm to waste time even TALKING about training.
Ok, my answer to the topic at hand: 12 gauge pump shotgun. I don't think it makes much difference which one. Personally, I chose a Remington 870 with a 14" Vang Comped barrel, ghost rings sights, no magazine tube extension, a Hogue 12" LOP stock, a single point sling from The Wilderness, a six round side saddle, and a Surefire 918FA weapon light.
I think any decent pump shotgun would be just as good starting with the Mossberg 500 and going up from there. I wouldn't trust a chinese pump shotgun or a Russian pump shotgun personally.
sm
member
444 Made a Big Point!
I have started threads to see "how" a person would spend "xxx" of monies if given to spend as they see fit. I think only a handful even mentioned training. Many wanted ammo to practice or ammo supplies. I consider this part of training [ BA/UU/R] Most wanted new toys...or to trick out and bling bling a toy.
Training:
pax - yes our lady moderator has , we would naturally expect El Tejon, I've seen 444 subscribe as well. Lesee Dave naturally, Smoke, HSMITH, kudu, ...and others I'm forgeting ( apologies) same folks do the same thing. It is a given which side othe fence folks are on. Obvious real obvious.
Personally I have a LOT of experience with bone stock 870's 1300's and SX1's. I used to do 100 repetitions of mounting a day, been only doing 35- 50.
Shorter bbl has advantages sure...I can hold my own with a 26" IC...I betcha.
I know there is a place for certain features for certain tasks...I have NO problem. I have seen too many folks buy a gun and trick it out and never once practice , train or pattern the darn thing.
I Hate and Detest some of the things folks do to guns to post pics and brag. Really turns me off. Truthfully , I've come close to not posting anymore, because the format of the BB has become such...even in Shotguns...hard to believe and accept.
I'd bet $50 pax, whom is not to my knowledge a shotgunner, could run some folks ragged using a stock Shot gun. Why? Simple - the lady has training, mindset , and puts software ahead of hardware.
I have to agree.
I have started threads to see "how" a person would spend "xxx" of monies if given to spend as they see fit. I think only a handful even mentioned training. Many wanted ammo to practice or ammo supplies. I consider this part of training [ BA/UU/R] Most wanted new toys...or to trick out and bling bling a toy.
Training:
pax - yes our lady moderator has , we would naturally expect El Tejon, I've seen 444 subscribe as well. Lesee Dave naturally, Smoke, HSMITH, kudu, ...and others I'm forgeting ( apologies) same folks do the same thing. It is a given which side othe fence folks are on. Obvious real obvious.
Personally I have a LOT of experience with bone stock 870's 1300's and SX1's. I used to do 100 repetitions of mounting a day, been only doing 35- 50.
Shorter bbl has advantages sure...I can hold my own with a 26" IC...I betcha.
I know there is a place for certain features for certain tasks...I have NO problem. I have seen too many folks buy a gun and trick it out and never once practice , train or pattern the darn thing.
I Hate and Detest some of the things folks do to guns to post pics and brag. Really turns me off. Truthfully , I've come close to not posting anymore, because the format of the BB has become such...even in Shotguns...hard to believe and accept.
I'd bet $50 pax, whom is not to my knowledge a shotgunner, could run some folks ragged using a stock Shot gun. Why? Simple - the lady has training, mindset , and puts software ahead of hardware.
Not to beat a dead horse............................ well ok, maybe I am beating a dead horse.
I am new to defensive shotgunning. I have taken a number of handgun and carbine courses in the past and have spent a lot of time doing drills competing in IDPA and IPSC etc. But never did much with shotguns. Even though I have shot trap, skeet, and sporting clays a little bit here and there. And even though I have owned and hunted with shotguns since I was in grade school, I knew from my handgun and carbine training that just owning a particular gun and shooting it informally wasn't enough. So, I asked some quesitons about defeinsive shotgunning. Got a lot of good advice from Correia. Last month I took the Frontsight four day Defensive Shotgun class and day after tomorrow start the Gunsite 260 Shotgun class for five days with Louis Awerbuck. Now I will have a good basis on sound and proven techniques that I can practice both dry and live. It is important to get some instruction so you are not just reinforcing bad technique with your practice.
I am new to defensive shotgunning. I have taken a number of handgun and carbine courses in the past and have spent a lot of time doing drills competing in IDPA and IPSC etc. But never did much with shotguns. Even though I have shot trap, skeet, and sporting clays a little bit here and there. And even though I have owned and hunted with shotguns since I was in grade school, I knew from my handgun and carbine training that just owning a particular gun and shooting it informally wasn't enough. So, I asked some quesitons about defeinsive shotgunning. Got a lot of good advice from Correia. Last month I took the Frontsight four day Defensive Shotgun class and day after tomorrow start the Gunsite 260 Shotgun class for five days with Louis Awerbuck. Now I will have a good basis on sound and proven techniques that I can practice both dry and live. It is important to get some instruction so you are not just reinforcing bad technique with your practice.
sm
member
NO schools...HORSEPUCKY!!!
I haven't been to a "formally recognized gun school with a noted trainer, instructor" either.
I did bug the living ???? out of folks to teach me at a young age. Used whatever gun available, did odd jobs, collected coke bottles for money so could reload shells.
How bad do you want it? If one wants something bad enough they will strive to obtain that goal.
So we get folks with some training and get them to teach us.Military, LEO, Rangers...etc. WE made it happen. Personal responsibility...we made targets, made berms, we wanted, we worked it out.
Now we used what we had " run what we brung". 870s, 1300s, 1100s JC Higgens pumps, Model 12s Ithaca 37...whateve we had - we used. 26" IC , 28" Mod and 30" Full choke guns. We took out the "plug" for Migratory Reg's. We informed the Sheriff and Game and Fish what we were doing...because we shot at night. Didn't want to give impression we were poaching.
Bone Stock guns, no side saddle, no lights. That fella with a stock model 12 with 30" full choke, FEAR HIM, he shoots one gun and KNOWS it intimatly.
He went through the shadow of death , saw the elelphant and lives to prove it. One of two fellas picked the wrong 60 yr old to mess with.
Ever train with an individual on a homemade course and bust your gun? I have, buttstoked one steel and used the muzzle to take out another. I wasn't "suposed" to go that extreme. My Mentor wanted to see "if" I had the guts, tenacity, and had learned anything.
In a real deal, I would have survived and gone home breathing.
And hell yes I've been in situations that I in fact have to use a firearm...maybe not the same valley - shadow of death- as some...maybe my elephants were not as big and mean...but they were real to me and others , posed a life threatening situation. " I was in fear of my life " the first time as a kid that included "others" as well. Had happen more than twice...lets just say the number of times don't matter, I have been in life threatening situations and survived because I bugged the ???? out of folks to teach me. Still ain't been to a "noted" school...but I know the shotgun well, very well.
So when I say /suggest the best kept secret is a 20 ga 1100 or Beretta 303 I know of what I speak.
If I say a stock 870 Express with 28" bbl , and factory mod choke, bone stock will keep one alive - I know.
When I say a stock '74 SX1 will work, I know.
I can take and use any of these guns without use of either hand, including racking / shucking and shooting one -handed. Yes even a pump!
I am not alone.
I agree and I look forward to your report 444. Have fun and learn lots to share.
I haven't been to a "formally recognized gun school with a noted trainer, instructor" either.
I did bug the living ???? out of folks to teach me at a young age. Used whatever gun available, did odd jobs, collected coke bottles for money so could reload shells.
How bad do you want it? If one wants something bad enough they will strive to obtain that goal.
So we get folks with some training and get them to teach us.Military, LEO, Rangers...etc. WE made it happen. Personal responsibility...we made targets, made berms, we wanted, we worked it out.
Now we used what we had " run what we brung". 870s, 1300s, 1100s JC Higgens pumps, Model 12s Ithaca 37...whateve we had - we used. 26" IC , 28" Mod and 30" Full choke guns. We took out the "plug" for Migratory Reg's. We informed the Sheriff and Game and Fish what we were doing...because we shot at night. Didn't want to give impression we were poaching.
Bone Stock guns, no side saddle, no lights. That fella with a stock model 12 with 30" full choke, FEAR HIM, he shoots one gun and KNOWS it intimatly.
He went through the shadow of death , saw the elelphant and lives to prove it. One of two fellas picked the wrong 60 yr old to mess with.
Ever train with an individual on a homemade course and bust your gun? I have, buttstoked one steel and used the muzzle to take out another. I wasn't "suposed" to go that extreme. My Mentor wanted to see "if" I had the guts, tenacity, and had learned anything.
In a real deal, I would have survived and gone home breathing.
And hell yes I've been in situations that I in fact have to use a firearm...maybe not the same valley - shadow of death- as some...maybe my elephants were not as big and mean...but they were real to me and others , posed a life threatening situation. " I was in fear of my life " the first time as a kid that included "others" as well. Had happen more than twice...lets just say the number of times don't matter, I have been in life threatening situations and survived because I bugged the ???? out of folks to teach me. Still ain't been to a "noted" school...but I know the shotgun well, very well.
So when I say /suggest the best kept secret is a 20 ga 1100 or Beretta 303 I know of what I speak.
If I say a stock 870 Express with 28" bbl , and factory mod choke, bone stock will keep one alive - I know.
When I say a stock '74 SX1 will work, I know.
I can take and use any of these guns without use of either hand, including racking / shucking and shooting one -handed. Yes even a pump!
I am not alone.
Exactly what my mentors stressed and taught.
I agree and I look forward to your report 444. Have fun and learn lots to share.
Mannlicher
Member
Lots of pontificating. Some of it worthwhile too.
While only a small percent of the gun BBS population will ever take a course, most of us could benefit from a lot more practice. Unless you are going into the gunning business from a professional standpoint, the practice will suit most just fine. If the SHTF, all bets are off, and the lucky will probably do about as well as the skilled.
Civility is still a virtue until then.
While only a small percent of the gun BBS population will ever take a course, most of us could benefit from a lot more practice. Unless you are going into the gunning business from a professional standpoint, the practice will suit most just fine. If the SHTF, all bets are off, and the lucky will probably do about as well as the skilled.
Civility is still a virtue until then.
In many things in life, you make your own luck. I would prefer to start out with some skill, if I get lucky so much the better, but I don't intend to on lady luck. That said, I'd like to take a couple of these courses myself. Maybe when I retire again I'll take firearm courses for something to do to improve my luck
I mentioned formal training classes, but let's keep one thing in mind, taking a week long class will not make you a great shooter. Becoming a great shooter is going to take many, many, many hours of practice. Years of practice. Possibly decades of practice. What the formal class will do is to show you proven techniques for you to practice after taking the class.
No matter what you want to do, there is a right way to do it. There is no need to reinvent the wheel and discover the best way to do something. This is what you learn in these training classes. You start off (hopefully) doing it the right way. From that point on, your are developing muscle memory to make these techniques instinctive. Your own dry practice and your own range practice are what is eventually going to make this instruction come together.
No matter what you want to do, there is a right way to do it. There is no need to reinvent the wheel and discover the best way to do something. This is what you learn in these training classes. You start off (hopefully) doing it the right way. From that point on, your are developing muscle memory to make these techniques instinctive. Your own dry practice and your own range practice are what is eventually going to make this instruction come together.
With all due respect, let's not hijack this thread. The thread is about SHTF SHOTGUNS, not TRAINGING! If you want to talk about training, create a post about it then. Otherwise get back to the subject at hand!
Now, my opinion is that SHTF will be a very rough time; therefore the gun will have to be capable of operating in adverse conditions. That leaves out most semi autos, as when conditions get rough and they jam you are screwed (except the benelli M3 which can also pump.)
A large magazine capacity would be helpful, and every extra round counts, esp. when dealing with large hoards. I'd rather have one extra round unfired in the gun, than be one round short!
Side saddle, or butt cuff is good for instant access to top off the gun.
Steel receiver, I don't trust aluminum to be able to take as tough a beating.
A special extra durable finish will help the gun out during the hard times.
Good rugged ghost ring sights are a must on all my serious shotguns, SHTF is no different.
Now, my opinion is that SHTF will be a very rough time; therefore the gun will have to be capable of operating in adverse conditions. That leaves out most semi autos, as when conditions get rough and they jam you are screwed (except the benelli M3 which can also pump.)
A large magazine capacity would be helpful, and every extra round counts, esp. when dealing with large hoards. I'd rather have one extra round unfired in the gun, than be one round short!
Side saddle, or butt cuff is good for instant access to top off the gun.
Steel receiver, I don't trust aluminum to be able to take as tough a beating.
A special extra durable finish will help the gun out during the hard times.
Good rugged ghost ring sights are a must on all my serious shotguns, SHTF is no different.
Making side comments about a closely related topic certainly doesn't prevent anyone from posting on the original topic. You certainly gave your two cents on the training topic.
"Good rugged ghost ring sights are a must on all my serious shotguns, SHTF is no different."
I have a Remington 870 with a Remington factory barrel. The barrel is 18" and has rifle sights on it. In a nutshell these sights suck. They are slow to pick up. The round bead front sight is not very precise. However the big problem is that they are not rugged. Over the last month I have fired in excess of 100 slugs including 35 today. During my class last month I was doing real good with slugs. I was firing some nice groups offhand during the select slug drills. I was real confident with slugs. Today, I was having a terrible day. I was hitting all over the place. Tonight as I was cleaning the shotgun I noticed that the sight is loose as a goose. The screw was all but out.
Moral of the story: Don't waste your money on a gun or barrel with Remington factory rifle sights on it.
"Good rugged ghost ring sights are a must on all my serious shotguns, SHTF is no different."
I have a Remington 870 with a Remington factory barrel. The barrel is 18" and has rifle sights on it. In a nutshell these sights suck. They are slow to pick up. The round bead front sight is not very precise. However the big problem is that they are not rugged. Over the last month I have fired in excess of 100 slugs including 35 today. During my class last month I was doing real good with slugs. I was firing some nice groups offhand during the select slug drills. I was real confident with slugs. Today, I was having a terrible day. I was hitting all over the place. Tonight as I was cleaning the shotgun I noticed that the sight is loose as a goose. The screw was all but out.
Moral of the story: Don't waste your money on a gun or barrel with Remington factory rifle sights on it.
sm
member
If one has NOT trained in some capacity, how in the hell are they going do be effective in surviving?
I figure the bird hunter, deer hunter, skeet,5 stand ,trap, SC, duck hunter ...is gonna have an advantage. Why? Simple he has the ability to hit a small target effectivley and quickly. The deet hunter has seen the effects of slugs on large critters.
Using cover, concealment, keeping the gun fed, knowing how to move quickly and quietly. Lessons learned afield helped /helps many soldiers / LEO's past or present in harms way.
Then add the folks that have gone to more advanced training. Sorry but the name of the game IS TO SURVIVE...I don't care what is slinging against the fan.
I'm gonna have a 1911 and probably a K frame along with simple stock SG. FACT the further one gets away from original design the greater the chance for failures. Simple stuff means simple repairs IF they should occur.
( where is pax when I need her - I'll probably butcher the quote)
"Having a gun doesn't make one a gunfighter anymore than having a guitar makes one a muscian."
444 -
I have had good results with a slightly oversize front bead...if want a smaller about 8" ( the old mid bead theory). That single oversize is rugged...not to big and NOT a Bradley...Bradley blocks the target and affects the elevation ( Kentucky elevation). Personally a mid bead and single oversize front is quicker for me using slugs...rugged.
I figure the bird hunter, deer hunter, skeet,5 stand ,trap, SC, duck hunter ...is gonna have an advantage. Why? Simple he has the ability to hit a small target effectivley and quickly. The deet hunter has seen the effects of slugs on large critters.
Using cover, concealment, keeping the gun fed, knowing how to move quickly and quietly. Lessons learned afield helped /helps many soldiers / LEO's past or present in harms way.
Then add the folks that have gone to more advanced training. Sorry but the name of the game IS TO SURVIVE...I don't care what is slinging against the fan.
I'm gonna have a 1911 and probably a K frame along with simple stock SG. FACT the further one gets away from original design the greater the chance for failures. Simple stuff means simple repairs IF they should occur.
( where is pax when I need her - I'll probably butcher the quote)
"Having a gun doesn't make one a gunfighter anymore than having a guitar makes one a muscian."
444 -
I have had good results with a slightly oversize front bead...if want a smaller about 8" ( the old mid bead theory). That single oversize is rugged...not to big and NOT a Bradley...Bradley blocks the target and affects the elevation ( Kentucky elevation). Personally a mid bead and single oversize front is quicker for me using slugs...rugged.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
most of the shotguns i see advocated for SHTF/tetowaki are too heavy and/or not reliable enough.
a shortbarrelled 20 gauge topper with interchangeable choke tubes and GR sights will do everything one needs to do with a shotgun whilst surviving in the woods, and it breaks down really small so you can carry it with you in those pockets of "civilization". you can even load up some oooo buck if you want the ultimate.
for SHTF, this is my choice.
a shortbarrelled 20 gauge topper with interchangeable choke tubes and GR sights will do everything one needs to do with a shotgun whilst surviving in the woods, and it breaks down really small so you can carry it with you in those pockets of "civilization". you can even load up some oooo buck if you want the ultimate.
for SHTF, this is my choice.
sm
member
Ghost Rings may perhaps be very good for many applications for some folks. I wouldn't make such a ultimate statement as being supreme
We are speaking of "matters slinging against the fan" [ I hate that Acronym in the title btw] . A shotgun is pointed not aimed in most but not all applications.
So being as the "situation" is getting serious ,are speaking of survival in the streets during a riot, or are we speaking of a "situation" where one is stranded due to bush pilot not being able to pick up the clients due to a storm. Capsized canoe on a hunt, being caught in a storm miles away from camp while hunting?
Social Situations - a riot? Where, city, suburb, out in the rural areas?
(I have been in riot btw, more than once in fact, actually the first time I used a firearm to protect myself and my sibs...just a tidbit I thought I'd toss out...not that it matters or anyone cares.)
We don't have the exact context of matters hitting the fan in original post.
One never knows the when or where of next encounter. So I tend to think simple, versatile, mobile, adaptable. Improvise, Adapt, Overcome.
So For ME a front bead only,( oversize or not) with a mid bead about 12" back on a standard "hunting shotgun, ~6-8" on a short one is more versatile.
But I learned to shoot without a bead period. NO sights on handguns or rifles either...just me though. So I don't really see the bead or beads on shotgun. Importance of gun fit and balance of shotgun allows ME to focus on target, my eye...getting a bit technical...IS the rear sight. With both eyes open I have full use of peripheral vision. Speed ,angle of flight / quartering of critter. "Bird , belly, beak, bang".
So since I have run a "few" shells downrange...
I need food - bird in flight or deer quartering away- I can hit a moving target very well.
Stationary target...That front bead and proper gun fit allows the rear sight ( my eye) to hit target, the mid bead gives a "figure 8" sight pic. Alleviates gun canting and if one has in deed checked POA /POI , tested patterned loads , test fired group for best slug choice.
So since I'm just a civilian and just wanting to "survive" I want versatility.
SWAT, HRT, LEO have their own special needs and applications...along with definition of "survival".
So when I can bust a 4.5 " target flying 55 mph at varioius angles...
So when I can hit the steel target "running" 15 - 35 MPH with a "zone" of 12"...and practice with slugs to boot...
So when I can hit the steel at 50 yds, or more...
And I do so with what works for ME...
That does NOT make it supreme or the best choice for everyone.
I could be wrong, that is my right ...to be wrong. Then again it is MY butt on the line. Might be that of others as well, so it is my responsibilty to get the skills needed and keep them tuned. IMO
sm
member
Andrew
Your Backpacking Gun reminds me of What Beretta did some years ago. I wish they still offered them.
Beretta had "Backpacker" shot guns. these were Single Shot, blue and wood stocks, studs and QD sling. Fore end removed without tools. [ IIRC friction pull back, away and down...like some Stoegers - the ones where the trigger guard was "retracted" to open action] Available in 12, 20, 28 and .410. I believe they came with a case similar to what is used for the Marlin Papoose, so it could be slung by itself ,stuffed in a pack, or strapped to outside of pack.
I really liked these, I wish they were still available.
Your Backpacking Gun reminds me of What Beretta did some years ago. I wish they still offered them.
Beretta had "Backpacker" shot guns. these were Single Shot, blue and wood stocks, studs and QD sling. Fore end removed without tools. [ IIRC friction pull back, away and down...like some Stoegers - the ones where the trigger guard was "retracted" to open action] Available in 12, 20, 28 and .410. I believe they came with a case similar to what is used for the Marlin Papoose, so it could be slung by itself ,stuffed in a pack, or strapped to outside of pack.
I really liked these, I wish they were still available.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
taurus makes a similar gun, with case and all that comes in .22 and .410.
I still need a suitable case for mine, actually.
I still need a suitable case for mine, actually.
BusMaster007
Member
BERETTA 1201FPG3.
12-GA. SHOTGUN.
MMC GHOST RING SIGHT SET.
870 HEATSHIELD W/SPACER.
REAR SIGHT REMOVED.
BENELLI SUPER 90 SIDESADDLE.
REMINGTON 870 in 'Y2K' configuration...
12-GA. SHOTGUN.
MMC GHOST RING SIGHT SET.
870 HEATSHIELD W/SPACER.
REAR SIGHT REMOVED.
BENELLI SUPER 90 SIDESADDLE.
REMINGTON 870 in 'Y2K' configuration...
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