When the SHTF, a rifle or shotgun in your hand?

[wingnutx]

I vote for an AK.

Cheap, reliable, and ammo is plentiful and cheap.

I love my AR but I will always have an AK to back it up. Being able to use more than one kind of ammo is a good thing when you are scrounging.

 

[CAnnoneer]

AK47 is the best compromise among ammo weight, range, capacity, sturdiness, rate of fire, price, and stopping power. But, I don't think I can have it in Kali, so SKS is the natural answer.

IMO, shotguns are greatly overestimated wrt their true worth in a tactical situation involving just one combatant against many hostiles. There is some value in the special services they can provide as part of a versatile team, but that is not the typical arrangement in SHTF.

 

[Bud Light]

With either get real solid training. Shotguns do require training to be operated well. You need knowledge of what they will and will not do. The simple act of owning one will do little to protect. If you cannot afford a class get the Gunsite shotgun video or Louis Awerbuck's video. Better yet take a class from either of the forementioned. Also Rob Haught is a shotgun master and his classes are affordable as are Awerbuck's. As for loads it depends on the gun but buckshot 00 or 000 typically to 15 yards then the pattern gets rather large in unmodified guns. You really apparently need 85% of pellets on target for effective use per Chuck Taylor. Beyond 15 yards it is a slug only deal. Albsolutely forget about birdshot unless you are hunting "chickens" as Louis Awerbuck says. Birdshot still penatrates dry wall but other than at few yards lacks the pentration to deal with humans. You need a gun that will hit. Sometimes a beadsighted shotgun is fine but if it is'nt hitting on with slugs you're stuck with it. Rather than with rifle or ghost rings where you can dial it in so to speak.

 

[dave3006]

Dave M. makes a good point. Lone fighters are easily pinned down and flanked. Then, they are killed. Invite all your friends. Have them bring guns.

 

[MudPuppy]

I don't have a 75 round drum for my shotgun.

Actually, I have the CETME, the wife mans the mossy, the daughter runs the ak and the oldest boy has the AR. The dog "pins 'em" while the "toddler yells, hit 'em again dad, hit 'em again!"

 

[Coltdriver]

A shotgun is a formidable weapon and good out to 75 yards all day.

With the right size buck shot you have right next to machine gun type power and shot density. You can adjust the shot pattern with a choke for a few dollars.

Get a police turn in 870. I picked one up for $180 and still paid too much for it. But it was carried a lot and shot very little and was basically new inside. 18 inch barrel and you can increase the shell capacity easily. Also pretty light and easy to carry.

 

[Jeff White]

Get a rifle. Shotguns are special purpose weapons with a relatively short range.

The AK is reliable but not very ergonomic. You can shoot distingished at Camp Perry and have the best mindset possible, but if you can't run the gun you stand a good possiblity of losing the fight. I'd recommend an SKS, a couple cases of ammo and a carbine course. Since your budget won't support the training, you might check with one of the PDs you work with to see if they have a patrol rifle instructor who might help or maybe even let you in their class.

Jeff

 

[Wastemore]

Call me crazy, but I picked up two 10/22's, changed the stocks to lightweight foldables and added BC carbon barrels for a total weight less than 3 lbs each. Really easy to carry, quite and I can hold 500 rounds in my front pocket. A well placed .22 will do an adequate job and it's certainly better than a knife or a rock. I purchased them for a SHTF sitiation, taught my wife and daughter how to shoot/load/clean, etc. I just can't imagine lugging around my 13+lbs varmint rigs when the pressure is on.
I'd probably take my 10/22's, a couple of my 1911's and my two coachguns.
Truth is, I'd load up my Suburban with the contents of both of my safes in a bug-out situation and my wife would be squeezing her make-up case between my stocks.

I'm just surprised nobody has mentioned 22lr..am I crazy?

 

[Tokugawa]

About the ergonomics of an AK- they can be vastly improved with modern stocks ala VEPR. And I have to think, when seeing tribesmen carring old AK's in third world countrys, they have gotta be reliable. What are those guns getting for maintainance, anyway?

 

[Jeff Timm]

I'd recommend a Yugoslavian SKS, about $200 if you shop around, and a 20 Gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun, lower recoil and lighter, more compact (slightly) ammo. I've never seen a deer who could tell the difference between a 1 1/8 Oz slug and 7/8 Oz slug at 1500 FPS.

#54282 20 gauge Field/Deer COMBO wood stock, blued finish, 26" VR w/Accu-Choke tube set and 24" rifled, ported barrel with rifle sights . ...MSRP $355 and usually available cheeper.

Geoff
Who used age as an excuse to go down to a 20 gauge.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Get a rifle.

• Single projectile means you don't need to worry where stray buckshot goes.
• Ammo is lighter and cheaper.
• Less recoil than a 12 gauge.

On a $500 budget, the best quality rifle suitable for (un)social situations is an unissued Yugoslavian SKS. They are built like a brick (bleep)house and will keep going under the worst conditions. You should be able to pick one up for less than $200. The 7.62x39mm ammo they eat is extremely cheap, easily available in bulk, and compact. It is effective for defense or hunting game up to the size of deer. Also, the Yugo SKSes have a bayonet, which can be an extra intimidating factor in certain situations.

Ammoman has 1970s vintage Yugo 7.62x39 on stripper clips @ $95/560 rounds. That gets you 56 clips, which are reusable. He also has non-corrosive Portuguese 7.62x39 in water-tight battlepacks @ $139/1000 rounds. These prices include S&H. (I have no connection to Ammoman other than as a satisfied customer, BTW.)

Keep your ammo in .50 caliber cans. They are rugged and water-tight. You can fit about 500 rounds of 7.62x39 into a .50 caliber ammo can, IIRC.

Along with the rifle, clips, and ammo, you'll want to pick up a cleaning kit if your gun doesn't come with the issue kit. I recommend the Otis Tactical (I hate that word) kit. It uses coated cables as pull-throughs and will allow you to clean pretty much anything. The whole kit packs in a small zip-up case a few inches wide and a couple thick. It can mount on web gear or be stowed in a pack. They run about $40.

If your SKS doesn't come with a sling get or make one. You may need both hands for something but oftentimes, setting the rifle down is a bad idea.

Finally, you'll need some way to carry ammo if TSHTF. The Chinese chest pouches are cheap and comfortable, and can carry up to 200 rounds in clips. Alternately, you can carry ammo in belt pouches or USGI 5.56mm bandoleers will take two 7.62x39mm clips per pocket.

One final accessory for the SKS that I'd recommend is a Mojo rear peep sight. The stock SKS sight is an open notch and frankly, sucks. The Mojo peep sight is an aperature sight that gives you a much better sight picture. Peeps are faster on-target than open sights, too.

 

[Lord Bodak]

Dave,

What does it take to install one of those Mojo sights on an SKS (or on an AK, my roommate would like a peep sight for his AK)?

As for the topic at hand... I'm still not sure. I have my Remington 870, I have my SKS, and I have my lever action .357. In different circumstances, I could see each of them being valuable. In a situation like NOLA, I'm not going to be out in the streets unless absolutely necessary. The 870 is plenty for anything inside the house, and the Marlin lever is plenty for anything near the house. If I had to venture out, the SKS might be the right choice. I'm not sure one gun can be the be-all and end-all, but if I could only have one it'd probably be the SKS-- it may be more than I need at short distances, but it'll work (obviously), and it adds the long-range punch the others don't have.

 

[cracked butt]

Got to Samcoglobal.com and order up a crate of yugos.

You'll have enough firepower to go around for you and all of your friends who are hunkering down.

 

[gutter scout]

Of the two rifles I own, SKS and M38...

...My M-N M38, easily. Reason? Everybody has one rifle they've learned to drive tacks with.

And if the Jackboots get me within 150 yds, I've got six rounds of .357 waiting on my belt. Of course it all depends on how much S is HTF.

 

[Ryder]

I wouldn't be carrying any long gun around in plain sight. You're making yourself a target for the authorities. Haven't you guys been paying attention? There are armed men roaming the streets with AK47s that need to be dealt with!

If I had to move around it'd be with my 44mag in a shoulder holster. Easiest way to carry that weight all day long and it's out of sight. Reaches out good enough for silhouette shooters and it's always treated me right.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

A shotgun has no advantages here. It is more specialized requiring unarmored targets at close to moderate distances. It is not as accurate with any load as even an inaccurate semi-automatic rifle is likely to be. Consider:

A rifle has less recoil for quicker follow-up shots and engaging multiple threats
A rifle has a larger magazine capacity. Even the SKS with the standard 10 round magazine will exceed most shotguns in capacity.
A rifle is more accurate for a greater distance.
A rifle can be loaded for rapid expansion or armor penetration making it much more formidible against barriers and soft body armor.
A rifle allows you to carry more ammo. Even a full size cartridge like the .308 doesn't way as much as a typical 9 or 12 pellet load of 00 buckshot.

My WASR-10 cost $320 shipped to my FFL dealer. It was serviceable out of the box and came with a 20 round and a 30 round magazine as well as a cleaning kit. But it had viscious trigger slap and the crude sights and spatula style pistol grip of most Kalashnikovs. I polished the internals with a Dremel in about half an hour and also buffered the edges of the mag well. Then I put a $40 Mojo ghost ring sight and a $25 TAPCO M249 style grip on it. For 45 minutes of work and under $400, it is a decent rifle. The ergonomics and sight picture are improved. I can hit gallon sized water jugs at 150 to 200 yards with Wolf ammo--which costs about $100 a case. It has acceptable accuracy and is more importantly dead nuts reliable and rugged. It has acceptable power for both 2-legged predators out to 300 yards or so and for close range medium game up to the size of deer or hogs. And again--it offers more capacity, range, accuracy, and if need be, penetration at a faster rate of fire than a shotgun while allowing you to carry more ammunition.

 

[benEzra]

+1 on the WASR or other double-stack AK lookalike. My wife has an SKS and I have a SAR-1 (Romanian AK lookalike), and the SAR is shorter, lighter, handier, holds more rounds, easier to keep clean, and the ergonomics aren't that bad vs. the SKS. Ergonomically, it's no AR, but it's not bad, and it's rock-solid reliable. It's also inexpensive to practice with (ammo is $1.75/box), easy to keep clean but tolerant of being dirty, and magazines are cheap.

One thing I'd have against using a shotgun in this type of situation is range. The SAR gives me the ability to engage out to 200 yards or so, and to worry someone at ranges beyond that. The likelihood of needing to do so is unlikely, but at least you have the option. Yes, a shotgun loaded with slugs can make 100+ yard shots (given the right sights), but once you go to slugs you are losing some of the close- to mid-range advantages that make the shotgun attractive in the first place, IMHO.

If you already have a shotgun and are good with it, certainly use what you're confident with. But I would personally choose the carbine.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

What does it take to install one of those Mojo sights on an SKS (or on an AK, my roommate would like a peep sight for his AK)?

* The ability to read and follow directions.
* A small, flat-bladed screwdriver to depress the spring underneath the rear sight leaf.
* Something with a pointy end to push the new sight into place (I used a nail set with tape on the point to prevent scratches).
* Three hands. Since I only have two, I clamped the rifle in a cheap ripoff of a Black & Decker Workmate.

It took about 10 - 15 minutes, tops. Best $40 I've ever spent on a gun accessory. Mine is on my Arsenal AK but the SKS rear sight is almost identical.

 

[buzz_knox]

I wouldn't be carrying any long gun around in plain sight. You're making yourself a target for the authorities. Haven't you guys been paying attention? There are armed men roaming the streets with AK47s that need to be dealt with!

That's why folding/collapsing stocks come in handy. I tend to prefer collapsing stocks since an underfolder/sidefolding AK is a big pistol until the stock comes out. I can run my M4gery with the stock completely closed.

Either weapon is easy enough to carry legally in a bag unloaded. Use your pistol to buy time to get to cover. The carbine can be deployed in a few seconds.

 

[Commissar Gribb]

That's why folding/collapsing stocks come in handy. I tend to prefer collapsing stocks since an underfolder/sidefolding AK is a big pistol until the stock comes out.

mwahaha

unfortunately though you'd have to get the super long barrel version unless you register with BATF.

In a SHTF scenario, they can always be modified to full auto.

 

[buzz_knox]

I love Krinkovs but as you say, I don't want to deal with ATFE. Plus, the ballistics aren't that great.

 

[72Rover]

My 2 cents....

One more vote for the shotgun...simply for its utility.

My personal choice is an 870 with the 19" deer barrel (front rifle sights), fitted with a Choat seven round magazine tube extender.

With a 12 gauge, the ammo selection is vast: a wealth of 'special purpose' rounds are available. Instead of simply bird- or buck-shot, or even slugs, there are some amazing rounds like the "block buster" (explosive slug loads) and "dragons-breath." The latter is a truly scary bit of kit...the ability to huff a ball of fire almost 100 meters would give most looters/rioters pause to consider an alternate destination. Non-lethal loads are available as well, plus if you buy a spare barrel, say a 28" with a poly-choke, you have a nice tool for securing food-on-the-wing after the insurrection is over.

If you can have *only one* choose the one with the greatest utility....

Cheers

 

[Puncha]

Went for a rifle orientation course today and the Ruger Mini-14 shoots accurately and reliably. Maybe you'd want to consider getting one second hand so as to fit your budget.

Cracked Butt:

That picture really got me drooling...... happiness really is enough affordable firepower for self, wife, parents and 2 other sibilings.

 

[Jeff Timm]

You might also consider a pistol caliber carbine, available in Lever, semi, or even pump.

Geoff
Who would not feel disarmed with a .357 Magnum revolver and a .357 Magnum lever action.

 

[odysseus]

Given one choice - Rifle, no doubt.