SHTF: What about those of us in the suburbs and cities?

[DontBurnMyFlag]

I know there has been alot of talk about SHTF and everyone's plans for escape. Talking to my friends in rural PA, they all said, they have everything they need on their ranch or farm and will just bug in. I tell them, thats all well and good, but what about the rest of us!?!?!

I live in NJ, and if its hard enough to get a gun, its even harder to drive in the traffic. I keep running plans over in my head and on paper to make sure I am prepared for whatever might happen. I know alot of you also live in the suburbs or city, or someplace not easily escapable. So I offer some suggestions, and ask for some as well.

I live in the suburbs about 20 mins from Philadelphia and a half hour away from large scale farmlands in rural south jersey. The rural farmlands of Salem also contain a nuclear power plant. I am surrounded by bad neighborhoods. I have camden to my right and paulsboro to the south and various sections of lindenwold, berlin and winslow twp to my east. There are major highways minutes from my house and alot of construction on the back roads. There are no military installations nearby and the police forces are small. My house is a 1950's style development where everyones house is the same on each block. I have a large portion of woods and a river about 3 blocks from my house. This are the factors I take into play when dealing with a scenario in a crowded area.

I think its important that everyone know the following

1. major roads and back up roads and back up roads for the back up roads. whats most likely to be crowded and at what time of day

2. Where the neighborhoods most likely target for civil unrest are

3. stores that will be open, that carry what you need and are away from people. in case you forgot something you didnt have at your house

theres plenty more, but listing them would take a lifetime.
depending on each scenario is how i would determine where i go. I have predetermined plans of escape and enough supplies to do it, but I wont bore you with details. If anyone can supply some other info on what you intend to do if you are caught in a city or suburb, I would like to hear others thoughts.

 

[.45Guy]

First, I have my "grab and go bag." It's just a large A.L.I.C.E. with rations, ammo, and canteens. This usually sits in the toolbox of my truck along with my SHTF rifle and POS taurus 945.(It's no good to you if you need it but don't have it!) Then, much like you already have stated, I have a plan to get out of the ghetto where I'm forced to live. However, I have arrangements made with family that lives in a more rural setting. That would probably be the most important, as I don't think folks will take to well to "squatters" in a major SHTF scenario.

 

[ID_shooting]

"I have a large portion of woods and a river about 3 blocks from my house."

Get a boat. Even an inflateable one with a small motor. SHTF? filler up, loader up, hop in river, head down or upstream which ever gives you quickest egress from the sesspool. Keep your bugout pack as packable as possible.

 

[WT]

You're gonna' die.

Considering Salem's track record I wouldn't be surprised if they had a release.

Assume ALL the bridges across the Delaware will be jammed.

Get a kyack and start paddling for Lewes, Delaware.

 

[DontBurnMyFlag]

I forgot to add some important info as I was so rudely interuptted by a stomach ache

So anyway, the woods and river by my house are an important part of my plan. I know the bridges are jammed and even if i could go to the rural parts, i have that nuclear plant to think about. So my plan was to use a boat loaded with some essential stuff and head out at night, for i am sure that the waters would be patrolled. the boat would be small enough to keep my family. we would make it down away from the nuclear plant, but where we know its safer and we have experience in that area. It is also important to note that the coast of NJ with the delaware river is laden with oil refinaries and chem plants. not a place I want to be. So depending on how volatile the situation, we might not even be able to use the river due to fires, spills etc.

travelling on foot is out because of the neighborhoods we would have to cross to escape my town. I live with my elderly grandmother, mom dad and brother. 3 of he 5 of us would not be able to hike a long walk, myself and my brother excluded. if we would be forced to move on foot due to cars being stalled or some other reason, we might have to resort to bugging in.

We have locations throughout my town that we can consider. There is my house and my neighbors house. Many guns, ammo, hunting supplies, boats, vehicles, water and food etc. My dad works for a company in which many of his buildings are behind barbed wire and have security locks on the steel doors. We have the keys. They are unmanned radio stations and antenneas with a building at the base. The only problem is that they do not have any plumbing at these locations. Our one primary location is on a dirt road on top of a large hill surrounded by trees. If we had a way of getting water we would be in business. This would undoubedly be shortterm hiding. Down the hill are 3 hotels, and 5 industrial warehouses. Such as a DHL, and numerous shipping companies. Big steel doors, vending machines, plumbing and water tanks etc. The hotels are from 4 to 10 stories tall. They have the comforts such as shelter food and water, but we do not know how safe they would be in a situation.

Of course if we were forced to vacate, i would not know what to do concerning my family. Transport in a car is easy, but if the roads are blocked or destroyed etc, we would have no choice but to stay put. It is possible to let them decide if they want to go to govt shelters etc. (which they would most likely do since they think im paranoid)

anyway, i have more plans with back up plans and plans for those too. but everyone knows that no plan stands up to first contact with the enemy...or in this case, the SHTF scenario.

 

[USSR]

...I have arrangements made with family that lives in a more rural setting. That would probably be the most important, as I don't think folks will take to well to "squatters" in a major SHTF scenario.

Unless you have such arrangements and are successful in implementing them, as previously stated,

You're gonna' die.

And, Yes, people living in another "area", will not take kindly to "squatters".

With this being said, and all the talk about SHTF (what is it with SHTF on this site anyways?), this begs the question: What are you doing to change the circumstances of your present location to eliminate the need to bug-out of your present location? Are you presently looking to permanently relocate to a more secure environment, or is it simply fun to sit back in your armchair in the 'hood and fantasize about bugging out and what is the ultimate SHTF weapon?

Don

 

[rick_reno]

You can come to my house, I'm in the woods. Try and eat lots of corn on the walk/drive here - I like my meat marbled.

 

[SJG26]

Tell NJ to stay on your side of the river........

We won't take well to an influx of the majority of political/personality types that will come over to PA.....................though they will provide good entertainment value sitting bumper-to-bumper on the Interstate (not unlike a row of steel plates at a silhouette match)! The hills offer a VERY good vantage point.

 

[Crosshair]

Good thing I live in a smaller town. (~50,000) From what I know about the traffic I would go south on the residential streets until I get to the southern end of town. From there you have gravel roads galore. I would probably stay close to the river since there is water and game there. In the winter, I would probably take my chances and stay at home. Winters up here are cold and I am more worried about shelter than other people.

 

[Paco]

I suggest you squat where you are and put your money in refurbishing your home into something that can handle a survival situation. You won't go far with an elder with you.

BTW, it's BS that you'll die. Country folk love to gloat over how us city folk will tear each other to pieces and such, but it's not necessarily the case. I live in NYC and I was here and saw 9/11.

I think the best thing to do is stay put unless your building or the entire town is on fire. I've stocked up my apt. and have even more since Katrina. I have a few select friends that will meet here since there is safety in numbers on the chance of having to bug-out. In event of absolutely no other choice but to bug-out, I got my father's in NJ and my sister's in PA, but even if I have a fortress on a mountain in the Rockies, unless I have ample warning, the calamity will be a surprise and you're best bet is to stay cool and stay low.

You DO NOT want to be caught on the road as 9/11 proved since everything was gridlocked or shut down such as the railways.

In event of a nuclear attack you're better off staying indoors anyhow because of fallout. People are always talking about bugging out but it's usually not a great idea unless you live 12 feet below sea level and a class 4 is headed your way: then you should ANTICIPATE that, seeing you live in an area of iminent disaster.

I've live in Florida for 10 years and have ridden out class 5 hurricanes. Unless absolutely necessary, stay stocked and stay put.

-Paco

 

[Gannet]

In my opinion "bugging out", in and of itself, isn't a plan, or at least not a viable one. Bug out from what? To what? For how long?

Living in rural America buys you a bit of insulation and time, but it's no panacea. How long can even a rural resident with a well-stocked farm survive with no assistance from technical civilization whatsoever? No fuel, no electricity, no spare parts (even if you have stockpiles, they run out). And, in a long-term disaster/social breakdown situation, how will they both survive and defend themselves from the millions that will swarm out of the city? City-folks have guns too.

My point is, a disaster response plan only makes sense in the context of a particular scenario. Open-ended "well, the S finally HTF" is meaningless.

So, that said, what specific scenarios do we want to have a plan for? Dirty bomb? Nuke? Earthquake? Flood? Hurricane? General social breakdown?

For some of those, "bugging in" may well be the best choice, even in a 50's subdivision in New Jersey. For others, all you have to do is get outside the affected zone and then things are pretty much back to normal. For some, you can come home soon, for some, you can't come home at all so just start over elsewhere.

For "bug-in" scenarios, obviously you need to have everything needed stockpiled, of sufficient quantity to get you through the expected duration of the situation, plus 50%. Expecting to be able to buy it at the last minute at Home Depot isn't a plan, it's a hope. And even if they have it, that takes time you won't want to spare. If the bug-in is of more than very short term, you need to have a plan, weapons, and sufficient trained and trusted personnel to be able to mount a 24x7 defense of your shelter. Not so easy for those of us who are single or in small families.

For "bug out" you need to have an appropriate vehicle, and necessary stockpiles and some sort of destination, even if it's just to "civilization". I wouldn't want to count on being able to find shelter anyplace close. I'd want to have shelter in the vehicle. I'd want sufficient fuel capacity to get 500 miles or more without refueling, and food capacity of two weeks or more.

I don't think bugging out by foot, or bicycle, or motorcycle, or other small transportation is viable. You simply can't take enough supplies, and you can't go far enough. So that means you bug-in or deal with roads.

If you're escaping from flood, perhaps what is needed is a boat, and in that case you're going to have a very tough time taking sufficient shelter and supplies (big boats aren't going to float in your subdivision, even in a big flood). Unless you have a large yacht of the proper type, and those can make the best bug-out vehicle of all.

If by car, it seems the best way is the backest of back roads. Have arms (brigands like back roads too), a GPS navigation system, and detailed paper maps (in case the GPS fails). Know that you may have to be able to change routes in a hurry to avoid brigands or the authorities. Give some thought to how you will alarm and defend your vehicle/shelter if you have to stop in unsecure areas.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head. Believe me, I've been thinking about the same stuff. We live in a hurricane zone, near the end of a long peninsula, across the bay from MacDill AFB (home of Central Command, prime terror target imo). The specific scenarios I think I need to be able to deal with are major hurricane, short-term social breakdown, pandemic, nuke, and dirty bomb/terrorist attack. Long-term social breakdown we basically have no means of dealing with.

For the nuke and dirty bomb, the objective is to be able to get out of town and stay out, and be able to leave very quickly - within an hour. For hurricane and pandemic, the plan is to watch the news carefully and bug-in if that's at all reasonable (it usually is best), or leave sufficiently early (which is not difficult). For short-term social breakdown we bug-in and defend. For terrorist attack it depends on the nature of the attack, and either bug-in or leave.

I'm thinking hard that I'm going to buy an older full-size van or Suburban and set it up as a bug out vehicle. Extra built-in fuel tanks, pre-packed bug out boxes (kept in the house), GPS, ham and other radios, flatboat on top for dire emergency, sleeping pads and portapottie inside, etc., etc. $$$ Sheesh.

We have no nearby friends or relatives to stay with so the wife and I either have to get off by ourselves someplace (not easy), or figure on driving a long ways, or both. Since we're alone together here, one of the most important parts of our plan has to be how to get home and hook up quickly should need arise. We have very little likelihood of being able to survive independently.

Again, just some thoughts.

 

[Thin Black Line]

You have 3 who can't travel. You're staying in. Stock up on food,
toilet paper and porta-buckets. Have some industrial size fire extinguishers.
The river will be a no-go for grandma in January. The secure hill facility
is an option if it's nearby. You could store a lot of water there and bring
all your stuff later --especially the porta-buckets. Tell the owner that
the water is for washing off the sidewalks leading up to the door.

 

[Sam]

Don'tBurn,
The secret is to speed up your decision process and leave before things get crappy. Anything else is second best. And the first thing to determine is where you want to go, have to stash your goods since you can't carry it all with you.

Sam

 

[Reddog1]

I lived in the greater Baltimore area when the gas crunch and riots hit in '73.
I knew then this was not a place I wanted to be if the SHTF for real, even
though it was my birthplace. The rest of my family thought I was nuts for wanting to get out. It took me three years to prepare and leave, and I have not regreted since. I now live with my three sons (born in the late 70s) in rural Ga. All within a three mile radius. My home will be the meeting place
when, not if, the SHTF. Most, if not all, of the folks living in this area have agreed to a common defence when this happens. We all know there safety in
numbers and a lot of them are around my age, (65).
We have good water in this area, (wells) and lots of wild life. I miss my family
in Baltimore but I do not regret my move. Remember the writing of Nostradamus and the Bible, its closer then you think. You won't get any
warning until it's here among us. BEWARE!!!! Look at history!!!!

 

[itgoesboom]

Unless you have a place to go to, stay put. As mentioned, people in rural areas probably won't take too kindly to you staying in their back 40.

If you have a place to go to, and it sounds like you do (those empty radio stations sound perfect), than you need to start planning now.

Start a bug out kit. First start with just a bag. Important items that you will need to survive. Water purification, little food, first aid items are a must, any medications anybody needs, flashlights and batteries, stuff like that. Get it started. Add a firearm and some ammo in there too.

After you get the basics, where you are confident that you can keep the 5 of you alive for 72 hours, than you can start to expand.

Here is my situation and how my setup works. My wife, my newborn daughter and I live in our own home, in a town of <3,000, in a semi-rural/suburb. We are 30 miles away from a city of about 1million, and 25 miles away from a city of >100k in the other direction. If TSHTF, I would expect my wife's mother and sister to come stay with us, and the rest of her family to go to her cousins house up north where they own a few acres. So our plans are based on minimum 2 adults, 1 infant, maximum, 4 adults and one child.

We have a walkin pantry that I have set up as our "survival" supply. This consist of a set of built in shelfs on one side, which carry camping gear. Tent, sleeping bags, sleeping pads. About 30 gallons of water in containers are kept below this set of shelving, as well as about 7k rounds of ammo in watertight ammo cans of various sizes.

Against the back wall is another set of metal shelving, this containing several plastic containers. 2 of the containers (think rubbermaid type) carry canned foods; Pork n Beans, soups, chilli, fruits and veggies, etc. Those are on the bottom shelf, since they are heavy.

Above those on the next shelf up are various camping/survival supplies. Cooking supplies, water filtration gear, water purification tablets/crystals, camp stove and fuel, radios (FRS/GMRS and AM/FM), batteries, flashlights, first aid equipment, dust masks, and other tools and gear that I felt would be useful.

Above that is a few bags of dry food, about #100 of rice, #50 of beans, and about #25 of rice, and #25 of flour.

On the third side of the pantry is another shelving unit containing baby supplies. Diapers, wipes, formula, clothes. Anything she needs.

At this point, I could have the pantry unloaded and loaded into the van in about 20 minutes. With my wife's help, under 15. After I put dolly in the pantry, I could knock that time down to under 10 minutes.

So bugging out would be very quick.

But the nice thing is that the supplies are right there, and I have plenty for buggin as well. Dual purpose.

I.G.B.

 

[DontBurnMyFlag]

i mentioned all my plans, but not my supplies. i am well prepared and while my family has not been preparing, I have been for them. Even if they are ungrateful swine

anyway, I have 3 guns. mossberg 500, sks and a 9mm kel tec carbine. perfect SHTF guns. I have enough ammo for all 3 to be easily carried. The shotgun would be perfect to leave behind for a family member since it is easy to use and has a wide shot pattern.

I have my B.O.B. with a full army medical kit, gas mask, camping supplies etc. We have 4 med kits throughout the house which include all the families medications, if any. We have a walk in pantry that is just stocked with canned food and containers for water.

we have FRS radios, flare guns, cell phones and my dad is worked on electronics in the air force and still does now. he can make a phone or radio out of toilet paper if he needed to

my brothers an amatuer mechanic, so anything automotive is no problem. if you looked in our backyard there are carparts, tools and all sorts of tires stocked up behind the shed in a nice neat pile. my mom said if it wasnt neat, she would move because this is New jersey not kentucky. please refrain from hating my mom for that remark lol.

my neighbors, who are prepared as well. have all we have and more. they also have hunting experience and fishing expeience.

we have plenty of backpacks and large rubbermaid containers for storing and taking items. Our mode of transport is either an SUV or volvo station wagon. Depending on the gas situation or need to go offroad, will decide which car we take.

ive prepared the basics for the family. food water clothes and minimal self defense as my dad is the only other one with firearms experience.

As you can see I and my family have the gear and knowledge to make it through a situation. However, that is all circumstantial as I do not know what situation I would face.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[.45Guy]

Perhaps I should explain why I advocate "bugging out" in any situation. Living in a large metropolitan area, Milwaukee, I am surrounded by a dense population of individuals that if utilities and the local Pick 'N Save were to shut down for any length of time would in fact "Die." Now the first law of economics is, "Unlimited wants and limited resources leads to scarcity." While I may have no qualms about defending myself from any less prepared than myself, I would rather not have to put up with any repurcussions when order is restored. After all, Milwaukee has their illustrious "anti-gun task force." Therefore, I choose to head to the farm with the extended family, thereby avoiding any needless BS.

 

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

BugOut? Shmug out!

Buddy:

A lot a noise is made about BugOutBags/SHTF “Runaway!!!! Runaway!!!!” Stop and consider things for a minute:

Evaluate YOUR primary risk scenarios, not someone elses. I live at 700+ feet above sea level, and my house is 18’ up from the curb. Flood much? Ummm…nope. The primary risks we have are, in order:

1. Fire. House fire. Plain, simple house fire. Candle let lit after dinner, falls down, burns down house. Short in wiring of 116 year old house gives up the ghost, and we are runnin’ outside in our jimmies. That *is* a bugout, but not a serious bugout. No firearms needed.
2. earthquake: we have earthquakes, but that isn’t a bug out, other than to the yard until we decide that the house is safe or not. Oh, and bridges will likely fall down. Bad luck if I am across the river for work. I suppose I ought to be buying a liferaft so I can get back into my home state.
3. ice storm/severe winter weather: This means the lights go out, but only for a day or so. Sounds like BBQ time! Fire up the propane grill out back! Make tea, bundle up, and play spades. This is NOT a bugout event, unless Perry King is the Preznit.
(snip for brevity)
9. Civil disturbance: SHTF that folks talk about—hide out inside the house, black out windows, lock doors, and keep firearms handy. Do nothing to show you have more than the people around you.
10. Nuke/Bio/Chem event: Ummm…shelter *IN*. Your notice will be VERY VERY short on these events. Not like you will have a reminder pop up in outlook for the nuke detonation at 12th and smith Street at 4pm on the 14th of June. Get indoors, stay where you are, and shelter in with whatever you have.

I guess with your older folks, you are more looking for sheltering IN than out. The good news is that you can store a lot more water/food/ammo if you don’t have to move it around. The bad news is that you will be called a fool for not wanting to leave your loved ones behind. Having said that, we HAVE prepared a small kit for driving…it could be used as a VERY lean bugout kit if we needed to leave, or were already out when something dumb happens, but our primary focus has been on SIP.

Me? I decided that this is my home. I shelter in place if at all possible.

 

[secamp32]

Bugging in?

I live the burbs, less than 10 miles from NYC. How long without food and running water before the unprepared urban residents will wander up north to see what they can find? I'm not sure bugging in is a good option. My neighbors are all unarmed liberals and I can't defend the neighborhood by myself. OTOH, you can barely move anywhere during normal rush hour. I can't imagine trying to drive out in a disaster. I'm trapped between terrorist target #1, NYC and #10, A nuke plant. I don't even know which way to run. At least we don't have to worry about hurricanes or floods.

 

[Stauble]

living in Florida to me the most likely SHTF situation would be a Cat5 hitting
id probably ride out the storm, we have plenty of food and water.
then load up the guns and wait for the looters

 

[jeff-10]

I currently live in one of the most urbanized areas in the country, South Florida. If something really bad happened this place could turn into hell on earth. Personally I recommend relocating. I am moving next month to the Northern part of the state, away from the coasts where there is more open space.

If you live in an urban area I don't see how staying put is possible. I recommend getting in the best shape possible, I run 3-5 miles a night 5 or 6 days a week. Also have some kind of plan to evacuate, travelling as light as possible. Trying to evacuate with elderly or disabled people would be disasterous if the situation is worse than Katrina. My current plan to evacuate from here involves just me and one other friend. We would travel light and probably just carry concealed pistols. We would try to get to my fathers place about 250 miles north of where I am at. First by car then by foot or whatever transportation we would be able to scavenge.

 

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

Secamp32:

hate to spoil the illusion, but:

http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/oem/html/readynewyork/hazard_hurricane.html

How long without food and running water before the unprepared urban residents will wander up north to see what they can find?​

Well...thats 10 miles. On foot. With kids. at 3 miles an hour with breaks, probably about 4-5 hours. OTOH, they aren't gonna ransack room by room, house by house. Expect them to look for the houses that look in the best shape, where the fruit might be low-hanging. They will first look for unoccupied.

Shut your doors, turn down your lights, block your windows with curtains, and turn down your stereo. Keep the kids inside.

do nothing to stand out. simple.

Or yo could try driving out. And get carjacked. Or run outta gas, and walk your way to NH. I think i will stick with SIP, personally.

 

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

If something really bad happened this place could turn into hell on earth.​

Its an exercise in probability, my friend. you have chosen to live in a place that the Great One tries to wipe of the face of the earth every coulpa years. I have chosen a place with earthquakes and some cold winter days. Its a tradeoff I suppose. I just don't see the city of Portland, Oregon going all Mad Max after an earthquake, or a long 3 day freezing rain hiatus. Those are the biggest risks here.

What you say does make me wonder about Florida, tho...not to be dismissive, but "hell on earth?"

 

[NMshooter]

Since someone else has decided to broach this subject I will comment.

Bugging in only lasts so long, and is largely dependent on the cause of the situation.

In an Urban area you can expect to see action sooner or later, in a really bad situation you are essentially hoping to outlast the majority of other folks as they go elsewhere or die in place. Well, those are the nice folks, there will be some who find they can live at the expense of others much as they live now. Do not be suprised to find some of these folks seriously armed, well trained, with a lot of experience, and no regard for your continued existance.

If you are single, in good shape, well armed with some experience and not squeamish you may do well.

Not necessarily for the faint of heart.

Find a place to go to, anywhere, just so long as you have some alternate plan, and keep in mind that anything other than leaving ASAP will end up costing you sooner or later in some manner.

Figuring out when to bug in and when to bug out is a difficult job, try to keep an eye on your local situation, including your neighborhood and any areas you have to pass through to leave.

 

[Matthew748]

I don’t really have any contingency plans. I do keep a knife, an M44 Mosin Nagant, a case of 7.62x54R ammo, a case of bottled water, a cache of canned goods, matches, and some basic tools in my car trunk at all times. I guess if things went crazy I would head south into the more rural areas, try to conceal my car, wait a few days, and reassess the situation.

Its not a great plan, but at least I have some gear and supplies ready.