Side by side Shotguns.

[Spanner Man]

Greetings from the UK.


After an absence from shooting for a few years I'm getting back into it. I started shooting nearly 40 years ago, and unusually for the UK I have always used a pump action. My first gun was a Winchester Ranger 120 which I still have along, with some vintage US pumps that I've collected over the years.

When it comes to double barelled shotguns I prefer a side by side. Having big hands I prefer one with a semi pistol grip stock, and a beavertail forend, (a straight stock and game forend is a recipe for punching myself in the face).
Such guns are very rare over here, aside from Winchester model 23's of which there are a few for sale. I had one some years ago which I shot well with, but it was the most unreliable shotgun I've ever had so I fixed it's faults and sold it on.
There's the occasional Browning BSS for sale, and the odd Spanish made gun.

One thing that I've noticed is that traditional side by sides with straight stocks and what we call splinter forends are almost being given away unless they're something special like a good English gun, or a high grade Spanish one.
Only yesterday on Guntrader I saw a dealer selling four working non ejector side by sides for £10 each or £30 for all four. Which is about $12 each or $40 for the four of them.

It would appear that the over and under has pretty much taken over in the UK. So I'd like to ask you chaps how popular are side by sides in the US?
I had a look on gunbroker.com and the prices for side by sides seem pretty healthy.
I must say I'm a little envious as there are plenty of guns with beavertail forends and pistol grip stocks that would do me nicely, but as yet I haven't found one over here that's not a long drive away.


Cheers.


Stewart.

 

[huntsman]

What happened to the infamous Game gun, have the Brits given up on tradition?

How about the SKB line of SXS they had a good rep here for those who dared own a Jap gun.

FWIW I found my bliss with a 12ga BSS

 

[Spanner Man]

Hi Huntsman.

I don't shoot live anymore, but I believe that game guns are still used on the very up market shoots, but I've also heard that it's now acceptable to show up with an over and under.

Just about everyone who shoots clays uses an over and under. A few folks use semi auto's, and pump gun enthusiasts like myself are very rare.
SKB shotguns are uncommon over here. Most that I've seen for sale are over and unders, and the side by sides that I've seen have all been traditional game guns.
I missed a lovely BSS the other day. It was an early model with the non selective trigger. It looked in lovely condition, and was selling for roughly (quick mental exchange rate conversion) $800. I contacted the seller and he had literally sold it that morning.
I'm looking at a Spanish made side by side this evening that may fit the bill. It's a non ejector with twin triggers, but that doesn't bother me. It looks to have a raised 'Churchill' rib too which I prefer. It's also cheap at (conversion again) $160.


Cheers.

 

[Cvans]

Good luck in your search. I find it odd that your having so much trouble locating a good SxS on your side of the pond. I thought every good Englishman had one in the back of their closet. From the publications of 30 or 40 years ago you'd have thought that no respectable shooter would show up at an event without one.
Have you thought about advertising for one?

 

[paul harm]

I've put on a SxS shoot from 2005, and attended other SxS shoots for as long. For punching yourself in the nose, how about just extending the LOP a 1" or so when shooting a straight stock ? Leather slip on pads are nice. I personally prefer a straight stock. Those are some pretty nice prices. A decent double goes for much more than that over here. I have about a dozen Parkers, Remingtons, and a Lefever and the cheapest was about $750.

 

[Spanner Man]

Times are changing Cvans, I think that many Englishmen have chucked out their SxS's to make more room in their cabinets for more O/U's I did think about advetising for one, but tonight I've picked up a rather nice Spanish SxS that has a pistol grip stock, and a beavertail forend. 30 inch barrrels, choked Improved and full. It's twin triggers and non ejector but that doesn't bother me. It also has a raised rib which I prefer. It cost me roughly $170. can't wait to give it a bash!

Paul. I require a longer stock on just about everything. My Ranger 120 has an extension and recoil pad, and the LOP is bang on 15 inches, and it fits me perfectly. I use a slip on pad on everything else. As much as I've tried I can't seem to get on with a straight stock. I love the look of them though.
From looking on Gunbroker and the like I've noticed how much good SxS's go for over there. Yet over here they're dirt cheap unless they're something special like a Purdey, Boss, or the high end Spanish or Italian guns.
I mentioned earlier about a dealer advertising four functioning SxS's for about $40. In fact the dealer I purchased tonight's gun from had a lovely Damascus barrelled English SxS made by Holmes. It was probably made in 1890-1900 and was a pleasure to hold. It was a non ejector and in lovely condition with the most gorgeous hand cut checkering on the stock and forend. He was asking $220 for it. I'm half tempted to buy it just for the pleasure of owning it.
You have a nice collection by the sound of it. I saw a Parker shotgun over here once many years ago. I think it was from the 1930's, and it looked and felt extremely well made.


Cheers.


Stewart.

 

[jmr40]

SXS shotguns are not common. I like good ones, but can't afford a good one and refuse to buy a cheap one.

 

[cfullgraf]

I have my Dad's 28 gauge side by side that I used as child. I like it, it is slim and quick handling. I got into skeet competition and have gotten used to single triggers. I have a tough time remembering to switch triggers with the old side by side.

Anyway, I've been converted to over/under shotguns.

That said, my son-in-law is a Brit living about an hour train ride west of London. He is a fan of side by sides. He does some bird hunting and clay games.

 

[Cvans]

I've picked up a rather nice Spanish SxS that has a pistol grip stock, and a beavertail forend. 30 inch barrrels, choked Improved and full. It's twin triggers and non ejector but that doesn't bother me. It also has a raised rib which I prefer. It cost me roughly $170.

I envy you for a wonderful find. That money over here wouldn't buy you a nice stock much less the whole gun. Next time your in town feel free to drop one of those off at my place. I'd love to try it out. Oh and make it a 20ga please.

 

[Spanner Man]

Good morning Folks.


SXS shotguns are not common. I like good ones, but can't afford a good one and refuse to buy a cheap one.[/QUOTE]

I like the good ones too, but can only afford the cheap ones!

I have my Dad's 28 gauge side by side that I used as child. I like it, it is slim and quick handling. I got into skeet competition and have gotten used to single triggers. I have a tough time remembering to switch triggers with the old side by side.

Anyway, I've been converted to over/under shotguns.

That said, my son-in-law is a Brit living about an hour train ride west of London. He is a fan of side by sides. He does some bird hunting and clay games.

What I find interesting is that in the US gauges like 16 and 28 are relatively common. If anyone over here is using anything other than a 12 bore it'll be a 20 bore. A chap at a clay shoot I used to go to had a 28, but I can't remember the last time I saw a 16. I bet it would be difficult to get cartridges for one over here.
I'd love to able to use an O/U but have never found one that I can get on with. However, despite being a pump gunner I've never managed to rip the forend off a double barrel for the second shot!

Your son in law is most likely in Berkshire. Some of it is fairly open country, and there are quite a few good clay shoots out that way. I'm in outer West London, but it's quite a drive to them.

I envy you for a wonderful find. That money over here wouldn't buy you a nice stock much less the whole gun. Next time your in town feel free to drop one of those off at my place. I'd love to try it out. Oh and make it a 20ga please.

I repair motorcycles for a living, and I do quite a number of Harleys. I can get quite envious of the price and availability of Harley parts in the US, as they can be rudely expensive over here. However, it appears that when it comes to shotguns the reverse applies.
The dealer who sold me the side by side also had a Spanish Laurona O/U in excellent order. It has 28 inch multi choke barrels and an unusual twin trigger set up, namely both Triggers fire both barrels. It's known as 'double single selective triggers' (what a mouthful) He didn't know about the triggers and was asking just over $100. When I showed him the trigger set up he said he'd ask around $250 for it, but when I said I was thinking about getting it for my youngest who wants to have a go at clays he let me have it for $100. So I got two good guns for $270.

I'd happily drop one off to your place if I could find a good 20 bore, but the air fare would bump the price up, and no doubt trying to export shotguns to the US would be a 'right old faff' as we say in England


Cheers.


Stewart.

 

[DustyGmt]

There is one guy on the trap squad who shoots a couple cZ SxS 12ga's. I hardly ever see them in shops and don't really know other folks that own or use them and think they are generally seen as not having much utility aside from defensive use or novelty.... but the guy at the trap range loves the SxS's

 

[MacAR]

A lot of guys have said they aren't common here, and that's certainly the case. But with every rule, there is an exception; I'm the exception to this rule. I use a couple different SxS guns throughout the year, mostly small game shooting but also at flying game. Here are a couple of mine:

A BRNO ZP SLE 12 bore, choked 1/4 & 1/2 (IC and MOD for those of us in the US). My favorite gun for flying things

This is an old Baikal IZH-43 12 bore choked 1/2 & Full. It sees a lot of use in the woods smacking squirrels and rabbits

As does this gun, a Winchester Model 24 in 16 gauge, also choked 1/2 & Full. A very enjoyable gun to carry and use.

And, as you like pump guns, here is one of my favorites:

This Winchester 1897 was built in 1914, 12 gauge with a 30" Full choke barrel. A most excellent varmint gun if ever one was built.

Hope you don't mind my show-and-tell post, and my apologies for the poor photos. I really like SxS guns; so much in fact that they're about all I hunt with anymore and I'm looking to buy another one or two. There's just something about them that speaks to me.

Mac

 

[Spanner Man]

Good afternoon Mac.


What a lovely selection of guns you have. Baikal's and Brno's are highly underrated. If I could handle a straight stock and splinter forend I'd have one in a shot! (pun Intentional). Sadly they're exactly the sort of gun that nobody over here appears to want. As I said, they can be bought for as little as $70 in really good condition.
The model 24 looks very nice. I don't think I've ever seen one over here. Yours looks very like the 12 bore I bought last night. Can't beat a beavertail forend if one has big hands!

One gun I'd love to own is an 1897. They do appear for sale over here occasionally, and if one comes up I'd be sorely tempted.
I have a 1942 model 12 which has a factory fitted cylinder barrel. I have a 1950 ish model 25 with a full choke barrel, and I have a 1950 Ithaca model 37. I also have a 1911 Sl from 1912. I used to use them all regularly, with the exception of the 1911. I used it once just to see how it is, and aside from kicking like a mule it was a nice gun to shoot.
My favourite is the model 12. There's just something about it, It feels so solid and like it would go on racking for ever. Guns like mine are rarely seen over here, and I get a lot of odd comments.........It's nice to be the exception isn't it!

Oh well, it's mid afternoon here, and it's what we call poets day, (push off early tomorrow's Saturday). Don't know if that applies to me, as I work on Saturday's, but I'm off home anyway.


Cheers.


Stewart.

 

[MacAR]

It's nice to be the exception isn't it!

Quite right! I also have a M12 Winchester, mine is a 16 gauge from 1941, with a 28" full choke barrel. It's another of my favorites; as you said quite solid and feels excellent in the hand. For my purposes I prefer the straight/splinter stock/forend combination; however none of my guns have them and there's a reason for that. These guns were found at excellent prices and couldn't be passed up. As a matter of fact, I had the BRNO out last weekend at our dove season opener, and had the only double on the field that day. I shot just as many shells and killed just as many birds as the other fellows did with their pumps and automatics. So I 'spose there's a place for the SxS yet, just not in everyone's cabinet.

Mac

 

[entropy]

I appreciate the Old World classic SxS, and while my 16 ga. Sauer kicks, I haven't punched myself in the nose with it yet;

 

[Spanner Man]

There is one guy on the trap squad who shoots a couple cZ SxS 12ga's. I hardly ever see them in shops and don't really know other folks that own or use them and think they are generally seen as not having much utility aside from defensive use or novelty.... but the guy at the trap range loves the SxS's

We have CZ rifles over here, but it looks like their shotguns aren't imported, as I doubt that there would be much demand for them.
I bet they're built well however.

Cheers

Stewart.

 

[Spanner Man]

Quite right! I also have a M12 Winchester, mine is a 16 gauge from 1941, with a 28" full choke barrel. It's another of my favorites; as you said quite solid and feels excellent in the hand. For my purposes I prefer the straight/splinter stock/forend combination; however none of my guns have them and there's a reason for that. These guns were found at excellent prices and couldn't be passed up. As a matter of fact, I had the BRNO out last weekend at our dove season opener, and had the only double on the field that day. I shot just as many shells and killed just as many birds as the other fellows did with their pumps and automatics. So I 'spose there's a place for the SxS yet, just not in everyone's cabinet.

Mac

You have a model 12 too! Now I'm getting envious!

Shooters that are unfamiliar with a SxS or Pumps often seem to think that they're difficult to handle or slow to load. Years ago a clay club I was at had a 50 bird flush on. If you were on your own you shot with the next person in the queue. The fellow behind me didn't want to shoot with me because he thought I wouldn't be able to load my model 12 fast enough. He was told to step out of the queue or shoot with me..The trapper heard this and after we had shot a 43 he informed us that I had shot 28 cartridges & Mr obnoxious had shot a mere 24!


Cheers


Stewart.

 

[Spanner Man]

I appreciate the Old World classic SxS, and while my 16 ga. Sauer kicks, I haven't punched myself in the nose with it yet;

View attachment 1024487

That's a nice looking gun We don't see many of those over here....I bet I could punch myself in the nose with it!

 

[PapaG]

Side by sides are going for good bucks regardless of whether they're popular for shooting or not. I hunt, what little I can anymore, with side by sides for birds. Ithaca (SKB) 100 20 ga, AYA 410 double from the sixties we ordered for a customer from Harden and Knight, and a Navy Arms 12 ga muzzle loader comprise my double gun arsenal (shootable, that is. In the reserved for lookin at rack are an American Gun Co 410 that was my grandfather's (tiny kids double) and a couple of Belgian and
English muzzle loaders with badly eroded breeches. One friend shoots any one of three Winchester 21s all of which are the strongest examples of American double gun art.

 

[Spanner Man]

Side by sides are going for good bucks regardless of whether they're popular for shooting or not. I hunt, what little I can anymore, with side by sides for birds. Ithaca (SKB) 100 20 ga, AYA 410 double from the sixties we ordered for a customer from Harden and Knight, and a Navy Arms 12 ga muzzle loader comprise my double gun arsenal (shootable, that is. In the reserved for lookin at rack are an American Gun Co 410 that was my grandfather's (tiny kids double) and a couple of Belgian and
English muzzle loaders with badly eroded breeches. One friend shoots any one of three Winchester 21s all of which are the strongest examples of American double gun art.

Good afternoon.


I've never seen a Model 21, but I've heard about it's legendary quality and durability. I wish i could get one over here!
AYA were one of the first Spanish gun makers to export to the US. One of their first models was called the Matador which was modelled on the Winchester 21 style of shotgun. They occasionally appear for sale over here, and compared to other SxS's of that era they still hold their value if in good condition. They're usually around the $5-600 dollar mark.

When I started shooting nearly 40 years ago the Spanish gun trade was huge. There were many different gun makers, and most of their guns were good quality. The cheap end of the market were guns like Baikal's which started at (in today's exchange rates) around $220. Next up were Spanish guns that started around $300, and then there were the Italian guns that started around $400.
Most of the Italian makers are still here, but nearly all of the Spanish makers have gone. AYA are still going, but they no longer produce affordable guns, as they only appear to make high end guns, with a much reduced number of staff.
Whether the Spanish gun makers didn't modernise their equipment, or their persistence in making SxS's hence not offering much in the way of O/U's was their downfall I don't know.

Even when a shotgun is past it, and no longer usable it's a pain to keep it over here, (in fact owning a gun over here is a lot of hassle). One can have them deactivated, but this is expensive. So not many people have a 'lookin at' rack. Which is a pity because most of us like to admire some guns even when they're unusable.


Cheers.


Stewart.

 

[Seedy Character]

Something satisfying about taking a double into the field.

I have a 12 and old 20 ( was Dad's and then my first bird gun, grandson loves shooting it ).

Always wanted a .410. If I came across one or a sweet .28, I would have a hard time resisting.

Came across an old 10ga, I was seriously considering, for some unknown reason. Would be a blast to load it with BP and Cowboy Action shoot with. Damascus barrels made me pass on it. I would still want to shoot modern ammo in it.

 

[Spanner Man]

There is indeed a certain satisfaction in using a classic gun in the field, (and it's not the odd looks one gets)

I bet it gets a bit nostalgic for you when you take the 20 out. There's something nice about passing a gun down through the generations.
I doubt it happens too much over here, because you have to really want to shoot in the UK, due to our very restrictive gun laws. There's not one single square inch of land that one can shoot on without the landowners permission, (and mostly that's impossible to get).
So there are no quick father and son hunting sessions, or busting a few hand thrown clays on a whim.
One has to make the effort to go to a club, and some clubs here can be quite selective about who they let shoot. So a lot of kids don't bother taking it up.
My 19 year old stepson is keen to bust some clays. So I'm positively encouraging him to get into the sport.

.410's are great fun. I tried shooting skeet with a mates .410 years ago.....It was like trying to hit them with a rifle!
One of the most stupid things I did was to pass up on an original Winchester model 42 in a local gunshop many years ago. It was an early model in very good condition too. The shop owner had got it with bunch of guns at an estate auction and didn't really want it. From memory he wanted around $250
"Regrets I've had a few........

Damascus barrels are to be admired, but indeed are not to have modern ammo put through them.


Cheers.


Stewart.

 

[PapaG]

I gave each of my boys a double 20 a few years back, specifically for use in our dove fields. One got an AYA, the other a Stevens 5100. Both, like my Ithaca, choked ic/m. I felt that though they were two generations removed from the doubles glory days they might appreciate the way of sport shooting. They love 'em

 

[Spanner Man]

I gave each of my boys a double 20 a few years back, specifically for use in our dove fields. One got an AYA, the other a Stevens 5100. Both, like my Ithaca, choked ic/m. I felt that though they were two generations removed from the doubles glory days they might appreciate the way of sport shooting. They love 'em

That's brilliant! I've always felt that there's something special about the traditional SxS, and it's great to hear that your boys appreciate them, and will hopefully pass it along to the next generation.
Ic and M (we call it 1/4 and 1/2) are great chokes for most shooting. My new SxS is choked 1/2 and full......That's going to be fun on my local skeet range!


Cheers.


Stewart.

 

[Speedo66]

Whether the Spanish gun makers didn't modernise their equipment, or their persistence in making SxS's hence not offering much in the way of O/U's was their downfall I don't know.

Same thing I wonder about the many brands of Spanish motorcycles that disappeared. I was on an off road motorcycle ride from this past Wed. to Sun., and one person was there on a Bultaco. Had me thinking of all the Spanish marques there used to be, but the Japanese put so many British manufacturers out of business too, perhaps for the same reasons you mention above. Failure to modernize, and not making what the market wanted.

As far as SxS's, the only one I've got is an American working man's gun, a Springfield 5100, same as a Stevens 311.