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Side-folding, accurate .308

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Shmackey, Jun 19, 2013.

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  1. Shmackey

    Shmackey Member

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    I'm looking for a semi-auto chambered in .308, with a side-folding stock, capable of 1 moa at 100 yards, for under $2500. Here are the side-folding .308 options I can think of:

    FAL Para
    VEPR/AK variants
    SCAR
    PTR/G3 variants
    M1a in new stock


    I love the FAL, but I assume it would be cost-prohibitive to get it 1-moa accurate. The AK stuff is more like >3 moa in my experience. The SCAR is cost-prohibitive. The PTR/G3 stuff could probably be made accurate enough, but (like the FAL), it might cost too much to do it. The M1a, if I can find a used one, might be the most logical choice--but I have the least experience with that platform.

    Are there any rifles missing from my list? Anything I'm overlooking in my thinking above?

    Thanks!
     
  2. allaroundhunter

    allaroundhunter Member

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    Why the requirement of 1 MOA? Will you be handloading or must that be shot with factory ammo?

    IMO, far too many people seem enamored with the whole '1 MOA at 100 yards' gig. You see looking at battle rifles, none are designed to shoot that we'll at your price point. If you want a gun that shoots that well and has a side-folding stock then get a Remington 700 and drop it into an AICS 2.0 chassis.
     
  3. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    The SCAR won't reliably cut 1MOA with match grade ammo. ALMOST, but not quite. I shot two 10 shot 2.5" groups prone and from the bench Sunday at 200 yards, practicing for a match, and I was fully "in the zone."

    I *did* hold Sub MOA on the same course with an FNAR, with the same ammo and set up (no bipod, no bags). But it doesn't side fold.

    Don't get me wrong, the SCAR is a great platform, and it's very accurate, but not as accurate as some. I will tell you it's a breeze to clean (you don't really HAVE to do anything but the bore, the damn thing does NOT get dirty). I've got 1,000 rounds of dirty surplus out of mine and the only thing I've ever had to do to the BCG is wipe it down and put a thin film of oil back on it.

    You want something "man portable" semi-auto that's capable of 1MOA with a 20 round box mag, on a budget (relatively), get an FNAR. They're fugly, but MAN can those rifles shoot.
     
  4. WardenWolf

    WardenWolf member

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    The VEPR .308 can do right around 1 MOA with the right ammo. It likes lighter-weight bullets in the 135-145-grain twist range. It can handle up to 155 with acceptable accuracy. The only problem is its angle-cut receiver, but this can be mitigated with an adapter block that will let you use standard AK stocks.
     
  5. Shmackey

    Shmackey Member

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    I do handload, so factory ammo is not required. In fact I can't recall the last time I bought factory .308. :)

    Why 1 moa? Just because I'm an accuracy geek and I like to make these things difficult. I don't really _need_ a new rifle. I do have a Rem 700 that shoots 3/4 moa. Granted, it's not in a folding stock, but the 24" barrel makes it a big rifle no matter what.

    I keep hearing great things about the FNARs. Haven't shot one but am now a big fan of FN pistols. Holy crap those are ugly rifles, though....
     
  6. adelbridge

    adelbridge Member

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    probably an accurized M1A with aftermarket stock is your best bet or maybe you might get a screamer DSA FAL by luck. If you decided on collapsing vs. side folding and AR-10 is your best bet. I have my AR-10 down under an inch and it is pretty much the only stock battle rifle that can consistently deliver MOA in that price range ($1500 would probably get you an MOA AR-10)
     
  7. Shmackey

    Shmackey Member

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    Yeah, apparently an AR-10 variant that shoots 1 moa is pretty much the norm. And I've already got a handful of other ARs that I can run in my sleep. I'm kind of an AR snob, though. Some of those DPMS rifles are supposed to be absolute tack drivers, but ... DPMS. :)

    Really what I should do is give up on the folding stock and go get an RRA. (I got past my AR snobbery for RRA once I shot their 9mm AR, which I now own.) But then the answer would be easy. :)

    Anyone know what's involved in "accurizing" an FAL?
     
  8. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    I've heard this claim quite a bit but never seen evidence of it, outside of people who pull off an occasional 3 round group under 1". With enough work and money i'm sure one could pull it off but out of the box i'm highly skeptical.
     
  9. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    As am I.

    When I shoot groups, I shoot 10 shot groups (or 15 or 20, with an F-Class rifle). The only exception is working up loads, I do 5 shot groups on those, but then put 10 more out to confirm if I find something that groups better than the rest.

    You don't get a large enough sample size with 3 shot groups to determine diddly squat. And people are oh-so-ever-prone to calling "flyers." There is no such thing as a flyer. You flinch, you flinch. Jerk the trigger? Get a muscle spasm? Too damn bad. Gust of wind picks up? Too bad.

    It all counts. :)

    If you show me an AR10 that will shoot Sub MOA 10-shot groups every time, and I'll believe it. I have YET to see one. I saw a Les Baer custom that came damn close, but when the guy moved up to 10 shot groups (from 3), it was clear that the barrel was stressed with uneven carbon; the groups opened up and walked off as the barrel warmed.

    My SCAR17S is damn close. But not quite there, even with Sierra 168gr matchkings going out the pipe. (I can see why the Military guys love them so much, though, it's light, and fast, and has no recoil, yet remarkably it's still easily an 800 yard gun.)

    M1A's? Sure there's some national match sub-MOA M14's, that's proven at Camp Perry every year. But they're big and heavy and expensive for what you get. MOST M1A's I've fired are nowhere CLOSE to sub-MOA. Or MOA. Or even 2 MOA. :)

    That FNAR is the only semiauto 308 I've ever shot that WILL hold sub-MOA, ever single time, on 10 shot groups. It may be really ugly, but man.. it's a shooter. And it costs less than all the others I mentioned. (Pre SH, I saw them sitting out on Gunbroker for $900 ...)
     
  10. itsa pain

    itsa pain member

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    imagine paying all that money for a les baer and have that happen. the mantra of you get what you pay for is starting not to mean that much anymore. I have a rem AR 308 and shot half inch 4 shot group and I stopped lol. I will try a ten round group next
     
  11. HJ857

    HJ857 Member

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    There is a side folding option for the FNAR. You need the receiver block adapter, which has been out of stock forever, the side folding adapter and then whatever stock you want for it, either AK or AR style, if AR type you'll need the pignose adapter and a commercial diameter tube. There's a number of options.

    http://riflestocks.com/store/product111.html
     
  12. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    I have a FN-FAL, and it is one of the few sub-MOA-capable ones out there (custom 24" heavy barrel). I suppose I'd sell it for $2500 with no optics and 1 mag, if someone local picked it up.

    Your problems:

    >Finding one that folds
    >Finding one that accurate for your price point.

    The SPR version DSA sells has something like a $5K MSRP.
     
  13. WardenWolf

    WardenWolf member

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    Like I said about the 16" VEPR .308, they can be right around 1 MOA and they can be had for around $1000 right now on Gunbroker. They're a good deal. They also only weigh 8 pounds empty, versus 8.8 pounds for an M1A SOCOM or 8.5-10 pounds for an AR-10. The overall package is very attractive due to its accuracy, cost, and weight. If you want a practical rifle, it's hard to beat it. If you want precision, you can do better by spending a bit more on an AR10.
     
  14. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    That's the problem with AR-10's, FAL's, etc.

    Generally, shops (and private sellers) don't let you shoot them first to see how well they shoot. :)

    It really is a crap shoot on the barrels / action; luck of the draw. Are there AR-10's, FAL's, etc that shoot good? Yes. But there's 99% more that will shoot 2-3 MOA. :)

    Savage is kind of the same way. I've bought many new Savage rifles - ONE of them shoots .3 MOA (22-250). Most of them shoot about 1 MOA. But ... I once had a brand new police model 308 which couldn't hit the broad side of the barn, and would literally walk itself off of a 24" target by the 6th shot due to uneven heat expansion in the barrel.

    Of the above mentioned ones, at least with AR-10's you have the option (albeit, expensive option) of (relatively) easily swapping the barrels out until you get one that shoots. :)

    It took me a long, long time to finally get an AR-15 set up that's sub MOA. I guess, the good news is, I have 9 spare barrels in the basement which are not-quite-as-accurate.

    At the end of the day, you can make any of the platform's as accurate as your wallet is deep.

    Which is why the FNAR makes so much sense. You *know* going in that it's going to shoot. And you won't have to spend extra money to get there.
     
  15. adelbridge

    adelbridge Member

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    AR-10 SR25 pattern $1500

    Lilja 24" bull barrel $500

    sell take off barrel for $300

    add good trigger from timney, Geiselle etc $200
    5 shot groups Sierra match king 168 .8MOA
     
  16. allaroundhunter

    allaroundhunter Member

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    Spending that kind of money.... A better group would be required for me.

    Otherwise I would just buy a LaRue OBR and take the guaranteed .5 MOA.
     
  17. Shmackey

    Shmackey Member

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    Does this necessarily mean DPMS?
     
  18. stubbicatt

    stubbicatt Member

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    Good luck in your choice. I rarely shoot it so as to not degrade accuracy, but the PTR91 with 155 grain Amax bullets and a load of H4895 that it likes will deliver 3 rounds in an inch at a hundred. At least it did it one time. I rarely shoot it at paper, but in load development I did, and that's what I got.

    I also shot a prairie dog on the run at just over 400 yards, on the second shot, using a 4x Fero Z24 scope in claw mounts.

    Can I say that this accuracy is the norm with the PTR91? No. I cannot. Mine is one of the early JLD rifles with the tight chamber and match barrel, and it will shoot very well. Mine doesn't like tar sealed milsurp, and won't function with it at all. Some see that as a handicap, and disqualify the rifle as a result. I respect that decision. I can only tell you that I have pared my "military styled sporting rifles" down to just one. And it will be one of the last rifles I will ever sell.

    Of your other choices, the FNAR is about the only one I would say can routinely hit the 1" mark time and again, example after example. Any of the others is a roll of the dice.

    Good luck.
     
  19. Ar180shooter

    Ar180shooter Member

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    Except that build is $1900, close to $1.5k less than a 7.62 LaRue OBR.
     
  20. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Member

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    I don't think I could shoot a 10 shot sub-MOA group so I don't really see the point. I have done plenty of 5 shot groups, but 10 is asking for a lot of error free shooting on my part.

    Personally, I wouldn't believe any 308 production semi-auto gun without a lot of individual smith time and hand loads would would do so each and every time. Now, are a lot of platforms capable of that in the right circumstances, ammo, and build out? Sure. Asking that out of the box for "any old version" of a platform seems silly to me. On top of that, you want a side folding stock which is generally not put on accurized models and usually means a short barrel for shorter range action.

    Maybe I am reading your question wrong.
     
  21. csspecs

    csspecs Member

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    Vepr and saiga are in the 2" to 4" grouping range at 100 yards. As are most of the rifles listed in the OP.

    I have two 5 round groups from both a vepr and saiga rifle that are under 1.75" with brown bear ammo.. However it is not easily repeatable.

    Its more an increased range/power AK then anything else.

    That said you better get buying mags right now, as you'll be stuck with 15s shortly.
     
  22. Outlaw Man

    Outlaw Man Member

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    Get a LaRue and add on one of those newfangled folding stock adapters (or do they make those for 7.62 ARs yet?). It's only money. :D

    I'd probably go with the 700 and good folding stock if I was dead set on a folder.

    Or the Barrett MRAD. It's only about double the LaRue... :neener:
     
  23. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    Heck go with a SAKO TRG24 or 42 military model. It's got a side folding stock and easily holds 1 MOA.

    Granted, it's not semi-auto. But 1MOA rifles only need one shot.

    It's also only $6500...

    The problem with a side-folding stock on a semi, they aren't going to be conducive to long range, accurate shooting. The SCAR is the closest out of the box. You can get there with others, with parts, and time. But.. application? Why dead set on a sidefolder with 1MOA?

    A 2 MOA rifle is perfectly capable of dropping game out to 500 yards. (The 4 legged variety, or the other). And, pretty much all in your list fit that bill.

    When you start talking about longer range, a fixed stock that can be customized to fit you (winter or summer), a nice heavy match barrel, a stock that's not a featherweight synthetic, and a big expensive scope are really what you need.

    Ergo, I wouldn't bring my F class rifle to a 3 gun match, or vice/versa.

    Practical application. Engagement range, target hardness, combine to dictate caliber, platform, and accessories.
     
  24. Domino

    Domino Member

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    I think most DPMS LR-308's will shoot sub MOA with good ammo. I have a B model with 18" bull barrel and it will shoot groups these tight (5 shots @ 100 yards) with 168g Amax and a consistent powder charge...

    [​IMG]

    Yeah no folding stock but you can get collapsible stocks or take the lower off for space saving. YMMV....
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2013
  25. sentinel89

    sentinel89 Member

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    If you are willing to wait a few months, Sig is coming out with their 716 in a PRM with an 18" barrel. I shot a demo model and it grouped sub MOA at 100yds suppressed with Federal 168 grain Gold Medal. Recoil wasn't that bad but the suppressor seemed pointless as it wasn't very quiet.
     
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