Side-folding, accurate .308

[Willie Sutton]

"capable of 1 moa at 100 yards"


Not to be a pedant, but that is a statement from the "Department of Redundancy Department"...

1 MOA is 1 MOA: One minute of angle. That does not change with range. It just happens to subtend about an inch at 100 yards.

Contemplate a good M1a as your choice. Scratch your head over a .308 Galil or Valmet as well. Both can be great shooters.



Willie


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[allaroundhunter]

Not to be a pedant, but that is a statement from the "Department of Redundancy Department"...

1 MOA is 1 MOA: One minute of angle. That does not change with range. It just happens to subtend about an inch at 100 yards.

Except that just because a gun will shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards doesn't mean it will continue to do so at longer ranges. I don't see the redundancy here.

He is saying that he wants it to be able to shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards, but doesn't say that it has to at 200 yards.

 

[Trent]

Except that just because a gun will shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards doesn't mean it will continue to do so at longer ranges. I don't see the redundancy here.

He is saying that he wants it to be able to shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards, but doesn't say that it has to at 200 yards.

Ok .. I'm not trying to be a negative nancy here but ... if a firearm shoots 1 MOA at 100 yards, it's on trajectory to shoot 1 MOA at 500 yards.

PROVIDED the shooter knows how to read the wind, use the sights properly, etc. AND the velocity is consistent.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Ok .. I'm not trying to be a negative nancy here but ... if a firearm shoots 1 MOA at 100 yards, it's on trajectory to shoot 1 MOA at 500 yards.

PROVIDED the shooter knows how to read the wind, use the sights properly, etc. AND the velocity is consistent.

It isn't just the velocity, everything about each round (including the shooter's actions) have to be consistent; but yes, we are on the same page, I am just factoring the shooter in when the OP did just specify the firearm, my bad


There is a reason that I hate the "1 MOA at 100 yards" and "1 inch at 100 yards" requirements :banghead: How many shots counts as a group? Does every single group have to be MOA, or just a single one? I could go on but, I digress...

 

[Trent]

It isn't just the velocity, everything about each round (including the shooter's actions) have to be consistent; but yes, we are on the same page, I am just factoring the shooter in when the OP did just specify the firearm, my bad


There is a reason that I hate the "1 MOA at 100 yards" and "1 inch at 100 yards" requirements :banghead: How many shots counts as a group? Does every single group have to be MOA, or just a single one? I could go on but, I digress...

We could really split hairs and say "a rifle shooting a properly spin stabilized bullet at one MOA precision is capable of doing so up until the final transsonic boundary is approached."

E.g. a 338 Lapua capable of one MOA can do so out to around a mile, while a 22 LR might only do so for a very short distance. A 22-250 starts out fast but doesn't have the mass to stay high velocity past about 800 yards. A 223, even less. While a 223 80 grain bullet pushed out of a 1:11 twist barrel isn't spin stabilized, so it MAY shoot one MOA at 100 yards but keyhole, and certainly not one MOA at 200 yards.

Another factor is a damaged crown or extreme throat erosion, which can tip the bullet at time of ignition or egress from the muzzle, that imparts an initial ballistic spiral which damps out with range; those rifles may shoot poorly at 50 or 100 yards but tighten up at 200+.

No matter, once the final supersonic threshold is approached (mach 1), the "bubble" at the nose of the bullet destabilizes and the projectile will do all sorts of funky stuff (that's the technical term, BTW.)

So, a rifle that shoots one MOA will continue to do so.

Usually.

 

[allaroundhunter]

That's a good word to leave it at, "usually". As long as we don't get too much more technical than that and "funky", I'll be able to keep up

 

[Trent]

That's a good word to leave it at, "usually". As long as we don't get too much more technical than that and "funky", I'll be able to keep up

Sorry. I'm an engineer. To me, the excitement is in the details and the data.

Which is why earlier I inquired about 'practical application.'

If this is for a 'Homeland Defense' rifle, drop the folding stock from the requirements. Unless Uncle Larry owns a cargo plane you aren't going to be paratrooping behind enemy lines. Nor, would there likely be "lines", if we ended up in that scenario.

I'd also drop the 1 MOA requirement too. Engagement ranges in a "homeland defense" scenario are likely to be short, mostly urban. A 5 MOA battle weary SKS is just as effective as a $3000 SCAR, in that situation. If you live out in the wide open plains or mountains, get a bolt gun. Engagement ranges are far enough away semi-auto won't matter.

Aaaanywho, I'll shut up now before I run afoul of the rules.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Trent, you're talking to a 4th year engineering student

I'm good with technical stuff, and I like it, I also know that if I get too tech ical I start to lose people

 

[SilentStalker]

Heck go with a SAKO TRG24 or 42 military model. It's got a side folding stock and easily holds 1 MOA. Granted, it's not semi-auto. But 1MOA rifles only need one shot. It's also only $6500...

originally posted by Trent


^^^^This. My Sako TRG22 consistently shoots 1/4MOA from a bench shooting 168 grain Hornady Amax or Zmax ammo. In other words, it far exceeds my performance. Battle rifles aren't really for accuracy IMO. I mean I see where you are coming from in wanting them to especially considering the price but they just aren't designed for that. If you want extreme accuracy then a good bolt rifle is the way to go.

 

[Trent]

originally posted by Trent


^^^^This. My Sako TRG22 consistently shoots 1/4MOA from a bench shooting 168 grain Hornady Amax or Zmax ammo. In other words, it far exceeds my performance.

Yup, I've read a LOT of really good things about them.

I'm saving up for one - those SAKO's are supposed to be phenomenal. I'm wanting the TRG42, in a 338 Lapua though. I've already got really good rifles in 308 and 300WM (Steyer SSG 69 and a custom 300wm w/ Krieger barrel)