Sidearms for B-25 Airmen

[BigMak]

Hi all,

One thing I never asked my dad before he died years ago was if he was issued a sidearm when he served during WW2.

He was a Navigator on a B-25 for the Army Air Corps in the Pacific Theater.

Does anyone know if they were issued a sidearm, and if so, what it was?

Thank you in advance,


BigMak

 

[Sistema1927]

I know of 8th Air Force crews in the ETO who carried the 1911 and whatever else they could scrounge. I personally knew one B17 pilot who always carried an M1 carbine in the cockpit, and effectively used it after crash landing in France.

 

[Timthinker]

If he carried, then I suspect it might have been a 1911A1. This is conjecture on my part, since some pilots carried .38 Special revolvers. An example of the latter is the elder President Bush, who carried a .38 revolver during his wartime service.


Timthinker

 

[LAR-15]

Some carried .45 ACP revolvers

 

[Trebor]

An army airman would most likely carry a 1911A1. He might carry a 1917 .45 ACP revolver, but that was less likely.

Navy flight crew were generally issued S&W .38 "Victory Model" revolvers. I don't think the army issued any of those as regular issue to anyone.

 

[BlindJustice]

My father told me about some of his experience in WWII. He was a radioman/navigator in the India/China/Burma theater. He flew in the
c-46 Commando from India to CHina - The Hump so called because
they flew over the eastern HImilayas. All aircrew were issued the
1911A1 The fllight routes they took were later named the Trail of
ALuminum for the lost aircraft. As you transit north it was over jungle
and then the cold above the tree line mountains. He said they
had a couple of magazines as spares as well as in the survival kit there
were 10 shot shells for the .45 He told me he was lined up at the rear door to bail out a couple of times as they were going in and out of the clouds
playing life and death games dodging a 2nd class jap fighter that didn't have much more speed than they did. He also related not many air crew ever survived bailing out, he said they took one guy's stuff that was personal and sent it home to family, the other stuff they divided up. Then this guy showed up - he had survived and walked out and eventually went back to
the unit. He got back more stuff than he had in the first place....

Dad also said he remembered doing about 30 minutes a day for a week in Basic Training dry firing the 1911 prior to any live firing. I wonder if they
do that with troops today with the M9.

Dad did101 missions over the Hump - normal tour was 51 missions,
he volunteered twice for 25 more... not many belong to the 101 missions
over THe Hump "club." They all hold the DFC with AIr Medal
and Oak leaf clusters. He belongs to the Hump Pilots and AIr crew Association - THey get together with annual meetings but not for too many more yers they are passing to the big air lift in the sky as the years pass....


Just a proud son and it's just past Vets day

 

[Pistol Toter]

BigMak
Slightly off topic but germane to the subject; according to my father any aircraft that had the Norden Bombsight on board, the bombardier carried a 1911. Not only was he responsible for the transport of the sight to and from the aircraft with his weapon drawn but in the event of being downed he place a round in 8 red dot marked locations on the devise. This was to render it inoperable and destroying it to the extent that it could not be copied or its effects compromised. So in that case, it would indicate a .45 ACP semi was carried. That's what I was told, if any part of this is incorrect, I appoligize.
P.T.

 

[strangelittleman]

I don't know much about the ArmyAir Corps crews but the vast majority of the Navy & Marine Corps air crews and pilots were issued S&W Victory models in .38 spl during WW2.

 

[shc1]

While I’m unfamiliar with the 8 red dot marked locations on the devise dad told me the bomb sight was under armed escort to and from the plane.


He carried a 1911 by the way.

 

[Liko81]

8 marked locations, 7 rounds in a 1911... I guess they had extended mags or a spare clip.

 

[Pistol Toter]

8 marked locations, 7 rounds in a 1911... I guess they had extended mags or a spare clip.

I don't have any idea and my source of information is dead. People who would know are getting few and far between.

 

[Fisherman_48768]

I don't know about the 8 dots on the sight but the 1911A1 is capable of 7(mag)+1(chambered)=8 rounds potential, but of course the reload would only be the 7 in the mag.

 

[Lonestar49]

Wow, talk about timing..

...

My dad who was US Army Air Corp during WWII was an Instructor for P-40's, then Bells (IIRC) P39's Aircobra's, which he dubbed flying duds, and then P-51's, his absolute favorite, told me, when I told him about my guns, that he didn't like the Colt 45's, as that is what he was issued.

I asked him why, and he said too much recoil.. lol

My Dad, who came out of the USAF in 1955 was a Captain, and is 83 now, and I doubt that I can get him to give it another try (with me) at this stage of life for him.

He may have taught your dad how to fly the B-25's, as he instructed in those, as well as the P38's, also his favorite Twin engine airplane.


Ls

 

[BigMak]

Thanks to everyone who has responded. Your input has
been fantastic and I appreciate it very much!

Last night my sister gave me all of Dad's medals, papers, and correspondence with mom. Hopefully, I'll learn more as I go through his things.

Thank you, again.


BigMak

 

[Funderb]

I think that the standard issue was .38 revolver. For most pilots.
A lot of airmen carried different sidearms though.

 

[Funderb]

Dad also said he remembered doing about 30 minutes a day for a week in Basic Training dry firing the 1911 prior to any live firing. I wonder if they
do that with troops today with the M9.

Indeed, servicepeople spend several hours per day with those little snapcaps before actually shooting a round.

 

[DC3-CVN-72]

In one of the first few posts someone said that B-17 pilot carried a M-1 carbine with him in the plane & had to use it when he was shot down. these bombers were BIG ! When I see pictures or video footage of Vietnam Helecopter pilots they all have some sort of side arm, also, even in the small observation choppers they have a short bbl. M-16 between the pilot & co-pilot or behind the pilot's seat. Why didn't the ARMY AIR CORPS have half a dozen M-1 carbines bolted to the bulkhead in some sort of crash box ? From what I understand about being on a bombing run, you can't take evasive action until AFTER you drop your bomb load & stood a real good chance of being shot down in enemy territory ! It would seem like a good idea to have some rifles for the crew.

 

[Timthinker]

DC3, the chances of fighting your way out of occupied Europe were small, thereby not justifying the weight of additional weapons such as you mention. Now, Chuck Yeager, the first pilot to break the sound barrier in 1947, did escape from occupied France with the help of underground agents in early 1944. But this was not a common occurence. I hope this answer helps.


Timthinker

 

[siglite]

Now, Chuck Yeager, the first pilot to break the sound barrier in 1947, did escape from occupied France with the help of underground agents in early 1944. But this was not a common occurence.

That man rules. I'm just sayin'.

</thread_drift>

 

[DMK]

An army airman would most likely carry a 1911A1...Navy flight crew were generally issued S&W .38 "Victory Model" revolvers.

Everything I've read indicated that this is true. The 1911 was the standard Army sidearm.

Some Navy guys had 1911s as well, but they might have "acquired" them outside of channels, I don't know. I do know that non-aircrew naval officers certainly had 1911s. The Navy often purchased small arms in a piecemeal manor back then.

I have no idea what Marine aircrews were issued, but I believe I've read about some of them having 38 revolvers as well. The Marines didn't seem to be on the top of the supply food chain in WWII. It seems they often got the left overs and hand-me-downs.

 

[siglite]

The Marines didn't seem to be on the top of the supply food chain in WWII. It seems they often got the left overs and hand-me-downs.

Nothing had changed there through at least 1996.

 

[RangerGrant]

BigMak: My Dad flew (co-pilot) B-26 Marauders out of England. He was
issued a .45.

DC3: Having rifles on board in the event you wound up on the ground
was not practical. More often than not, the crew barely had time
to put their chute on, and jump, much less grab a rifle on the way
out. Many did not get even that chance. The planes do look big,
but on the inside they were very cramped, not alot of room for
extra things like rifles.

In my Dad's bail-out they took an 88 in the left wing root which set
the whole plane on fire. All the crew got out, barely. When Dad
hit the ground he nearly broke an ankle, and could hardly walk,
much less run, and there was no place to hide as he came down
into acres of empty field. He buried the escape kit/.45 minutes
before he was captured.

 

[DMK]

Why didn't the ARMY AIR CORPS have half a dozen M-1 carbines bolted to the bulkhead in some sort of crash box ?

Aircrews would never have time to get them. Anyone who's ever actually been inside a B17(or a B25 or B26) would attest that they are very tight, and there's only a couple ways out, plus the bomb bay if it happens to be open. Those things would absorb a lot of damage and as any crew would, they'd try to hold out as long as possible to get as close to friendlies as possible. If it was time to bail out, it was time to go right now! You had what you were wearing, that was it and if you even did get out at all, you were very lucky.

Man, those guys had it rough. Even foot soldiers didn't envy B17 and B24 crews.

With choppers on the other hand, you don't bail out. You autorotate the bird down, so you might have a chance to grab some gear from the wreck once down. Chopper crews have been also known to return fire with their rifles and carbines if they're flying in "slicks".

 

[shep854]

For the most part, Army aircrew were issued M1911s, USN & USMC got S&W Military & Police (Model 10 in modernspeak). The perception was that the revolver was less likely to rust up in the ocean. Also, tracer rounds were developed for the .38 for rescue purposes.

In the ETO, I read where aircrew left their sidearms at home, figuring that the chances of shooting themselves out of Europe were pretty slim. OTOH, it might come in handy to hold off a lynch mob of angry German civilians until German (hopefully Luftwaffe) troops showed up who they could surrender to.

 

[Timthinker]

One obvious point here is that WW II aircrews did not have ejector seats, which really limits your ability to escape a seriously damaged airplane. I heard that RAF pilots were told the best way to escape a damaged Spitfire was to open the cockpit, unfasten the seat restraints and invert the plane.

But even if your plane could manage a survivable crash landing, escaping from occupied territory is no easy feat. If you were shot down over Berlin or another occupied city, then escape was very difficult if not impossible. Even today, I doubt crews of B-1s, B-2s and B-52s believe they could fight their way out from deep within enemy territory. Rescue may be possible in some instances, but the odds are not good.


Timthinker