Sidearms for B-25 Airmen

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My Dad in the India China Burma theater didn't face
enemy troops in case of a bailout It was the jungle to deal
with He said they had silk maps sewn into the inside of their
leather flight jackets to have if they hit the ground after bailing
out. They had a survival kit with shot shells for the 1911. I gotta
get that picture of him when he posed in flight gear with his pilot
and co-pilot - army boots with khaki pants tucked into the boots
duty belt with the holster and 1911 with some other small OD
canvas holders for stuff standing ahead of hte nose of the C-46

I am going up to Spokane next week for T Day and will get
it and scan it in for y'all.

My Dad was born in 1925 and in 41 or so he said he looked up
as he was farming and saw a P38 in Southern Idaho zoom by
low level and he thought it was the most beautiful plane he
had ever seen. He wanted to fly and he did in WWII even tho
they washed him out of pilots training because of his height.

off topic getting - but he did have several small planes when I
was growing up - he always had a small kit and a handgun as part of
the kit for if the plane went down in Central Wash. State. including
the Cascade Mountains.

He got me out with some Nat. Guard outfit when I was 14 and
I qualified - barely - with the 1911 but didn't make it with the
M1 Garand at 500 yards back about '65.

I think the Marines in terms of rifles and the THompson as well as
the BAER were better equipped than the enemy by far
 
Also, not many in WWII carried a .45 ACP revolver on the front lines.
JUst didn't have the logistics supply chain for moon clips period.

Yes, General Mark Clark carried one in WWII and
Korea but Generals can do that...
 
Ah, the B-25

I was 14 or 15 and about 6 foot and 145 lbs We went to an
AIr SHow in Wenatchee Wash. A b25 set up for
a fire bomber was on display I got in it and crawled in the tunnel
to the nose - it was a cramped tunnel to the nose those
aircrew who were bombadiers must have been shorter and as slim as I

The B-25 was the baddest Ass twin engine bomber of WWII bar none...
one version had more Ma Deuce .50 HMGs than the B17G or H
and some in the Pacific were tried with a 75mm field gun in the nose
vs Jap Destroyers etc. It would slow the plane down by 20 or 30 mph
when they fired it though so the ones with 6 .50s in the nose were
better delivering the goods.

'd take a 1911 over any Revolver in a survival situ.
 
Blindjustice:

Just read your post, and was glad to hear another proud son of a "Hump pilot". My dad was flight engineer on C-87's in the same region, same time period. He had 1000 hrs "Over the hump" flying Jarhat, India - Kunming (sp?) and points North. He told me a few stories of his time over there, including transporting some Chinese soldiers when they developed engine trouble on #3, they were losing altitude, and told the Chinese Lt. (American born and raised) they needed to jettison weight to make it into Kunming. He promptly had his men stand up, rack rifles, and 5 of thw were out of the plane in a heartbeat, (NO PARACHUTES) before my Dad could stop them. He told the Lt. "No, jettison rifles and packs" to which the Chinese Lt. responded, "My country has many men, but little equipment". They made it in safely, but he said he didn't sleep well for a while after that. He by the way carried a 1917 S&W in a shoulder holster.
 
My late father was a radio operator on B17s in the European theater,
He told me they did have M1 carbines stashed on the aircraft during combat flights but it was a goofy idea since you would not have time to retrieve them in the event of a bail out.

All flight personnel were issued 1911A1 handguns and he hated the gun even though he owned a .45 auto after the war.
He said it was too bulky and uncomfortable to carry during the long flights.
The whole crew were all issued the handgun, three magazines of hardball and a hip holster and a shoulder holster.
It was their choice which holster they wished to use.
Many of the guys didn't even bother with a handgun figuring if they actually did make it to the ground in Germany there was no way they were going to start a gun battle with an Infantry regiment.

My dad won a Spanish made .32 "Ruby" pistol from a Frenchman who came over to England in the Dunkirk retreat.
He carried that pistol in a pocket of his flight jacket and figured the only use he might have for a handgun if he made it to the ground was shooting an angry farmers dog.
I still have that pistol today.
The holster is for a Makarov but works nicely for storing this little gem of the gunmakers art.:)
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My grandfather carried a 'Colt .45' as a flight engineer on B-29's over Japan. They had a tommygun they 'horsed around with' at base camp but I doubt very seriously it ever went up with them.

I was in JROTC with a guy whose dad flew F-86 Sabre jets over Korea, he HATED carrying a sidearm (uncomfy in the cockpit) but would NOT fly without one.
 
I think the 1911 pattern was the most common US Army Air Corp issued sidearm. Even my dad carried a 1911 as an Army medical officer when he was "Officer of the Day" on base. Yes even doctors and dentist carried sidearms occasionally.
 
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I've been an airplane buff all of my life. I have several books on planes. One book stated that the bombadier was given a Thompson sub gun to wipe out the Nordon bomb sight if they were hit. This was in the B-17 section for crews over Europe. I have no first hand knowledge and i am only quoting.
 
Found a couple of pics of my Dad this weekend, #1 is in the door of his plane in Jorhat, India, and #2is a pic of his plane sitting on the strip in Kunming, China

PopinDoor.jpg

TheJoker2.jpg

It's hard to see, but his shoulder holster with S&W 1917, which he loved, so I found him another in 92' that he kept till his death in 02'.
 
JUst didn't have the logistics supply chain for moon clips period.
Moon clips hadn't been invented yet. They are a fairly recent innovation.

During WWI & WWII, half-moon clips were all there was.

BTW: I could be wrong, but I believe Bill Jordan mentioned carrying a 1917 S&W revolver throughout WWII in the Pacific Island invasions.

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rcmodel
 
My Dad was a B-29 tail-gunner and he had a Colt 1911 .45 but I can't say for sure if it was "officially" issued to him or if it was something he picked up on his own?

He kept it when the war was over but unfortunately sold it before I was old enough to get my grubby paws on it :(
 
RC Model-

You are correct about Bill Jordan. He personally told me that he used both a pump shotgun and a M-1917 S&W .45 revolver while cleaning out Jap strongholds on the Pacific islands. Bill told me that when it came to saving his life, he always preferred revolvers.

Those interested in B-25 small arms should read Capt Ted Lawson's,
"Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo." Read the book; don't just rent the movie version. However, even the movie did show one of Lawson's men drawing his .45 and asking if he should shoot some approaching Orientals. They declined, and the men turned out to be helpful Chinese. I believe that crewman's name was Clevenger. Many of Lawson's crew were injured when they crash landed, "The Ruptured Duck".

He said that Doolittle's crews all had both service-issued .45's and a variety of personal weapons. He had his wife's .32 automatic, I think, and a number carried knives, too.

In a WW II book (I forget which), a B-25 crew member in the Burma area said that the pilots of his unit arranged to have all crewmen issued .45 autos. Told that in the Air Corps, only officers (apart from such obvious exceptions as MP's) were issued sidearms, they said that the enlisted men needed the guns as a morale issue. They got them!

Next item: in his WW II autobiography, Lt. Col. (Brevet Brigadier) John Masters, DSO, etc told about a ride that he took on an American B-25. He wanted to have a look at the terrain in which his troops would be fighting, and hitched a ride with the US aircrew. He was wary of the 75mm cannon in the nose. Thought it might be too much of a good thing in an airplane. I think he or another officer also mentioned that B-25 aircrew in that theater also carried some shoulder-fired arms in case they crash landed and had to live in the jungle. In that theater, they may have also planned to die fighting, no surrender to Japs.
Why? Masters, who after the war came to the USA and became a bestselling novelist, cited a message sent by an infantry officer to his commander back in India. It involved his casualties in Burma.

In it, the young British officer listed his dead and wounded, then POW's, "presumed killed."

The officer in India radioed back, "There is no such category as 'captured, presumed killed'."

He responded, "Sir, we are fighting the Japanese."

Masters commanded the British strongpoint codenamed Blackpool, and succeeeded in eliminating most of the very strong Jap force that attacked his British, Ghurka, and Indian troops. He lived for moinths in the jungle, and said that the experience burned him out emotionally. Said that he'd as soon shoot a Jap as to step on a cockroach. I believe that he probably considered them on the same moral level.

This was an officer who graduated froim Sandhurst before the war and who had experience in fighting the wild tribes on the NW Frontier of India and the Afghans. They were a pretty fierce lot, but the Japs affected him more, as enemies worthy of a detached hatred.

He was with Field Marshal the Earl Slim's (later Viscount Slim of Burma) 14 th Army, which recaptured Burma.
You may be able to find his autobiography iin two volumes and "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo" via Interlibrary Loan, or in older libraries, or at used book stores. Master's prewar life is, "Bugles and a Tiger". The WWII years are in: "The Road Past Mandalay". His novels include, "Bhowani Junction " (made into a major movie) and, "The Venus of Konpara".

Both should be read by anyone interested in the war in that theater. The novels are set in colonial India, where Masters's family served for several generations.

Oh: I don't know which sidearm Masters carried, but he also had a .30 US carbine. Apparently, many Chindits and other British personnel had access to those by 1944. They also had many Tommy guns before the Sten became common.

I read Yeager's account of his bailout over France and his successful escape, I think over the Pyrenees. He definitely had a .45 auto, but I can't recall whether he used it.

Keep in mind that Chuck Yeager was a hunter in civlian life and a woodsman. He had much more skill and motivation than the average pilot in the European theater of operations. However, quite a few Allied airmen were asssisted to return to England by the underground movements in Holland and France.

Other Allied airmen had sidearms, sometimes unusual ones. RAF ace Robert Stanford-Tuck was said to have had a .32 Beretta, and in their books, both J.E. Johnson, the Spitfire ace , and Jack Currie, in "Lancaster Target" mentioned sidearms being carried by RAF officers. "Bob" Braham, the very decorated night fighter pilot, mentioned carrying a Luger taken from a downed Luftwaffe crewman. He had it on him when a FW-190 shot down his Mosquito over Denmark. The Germans weren't too pleased about it, either, although he wasn't badly treated, and was later visited by the pilot (Robert Spreckels) who shot him down. He wanted to meet the famous Braham. Braham blamed his being shot down to combat fatigue. He was too burned out to be as alert as he should have been. He flew mainly Beaufighters before Mosquitos.

In general, if the ISSUE pistol for US pilots is considered, it was normally the M-1911/M1911A-1 for Army pilots and the same for Navy and Marine pilots early in the war. By mid-1942, most Naval and Marine flight personnel and many Coast Guardsmen had Smith & Wesson Victory Model .38 Special revolvers. That is not to say that a pilot who really wanted one couldn't have a .45, and I'm sure that some did. Probably depended on the squadron CO or the ship's captain, or whoever brownnosed the supply officer.

Marine ace Joe Foss definitely had a .45 auto and it has been pictured in, "American Rifleman", I believe. Refer to 1942 issues of, "National Geograhic" to see sidearms worn by Naval airmen during the Battle of the Coral Sea and Midway. All that I remember were .45's. Pictures of top US ace Dick Bong show his shoulder-holstered .45 and a Randall Made knife on his belt.

The P-38 pilot who authored, "War Pilot", Richard C. Kirkland, mentioned the pilots in New Guinea cleaning their .45's and I think, shooting at coconuts and bats. I don't have time to check that part tonight.

It would be rare for a US pilot to have gone sans sidearm except for one case. At one time, there was a general order advising aircrew to leave handguns and "large knives" on base, lest they frighten French civilians who might otherwise help a downed airman. But it seems that many airmen ignored the regulation. After the invasion began, it was probably widely ignored. In the Far East and over North Africa and Italy, no such order ever seems to have been given, anyway.


Lone Star

P.S. Wing Commander J.R.D. Braham's decorations included The DSO, the DFC, AFC, CD, and the Belgian Order of the Crown and the French Croix de Guerre. His book, "Night Fighter" is well worth seeking out.
 
In 1956 and for many years afterward, probably until the Beretta was adopted, Naval Aviators carried a .38 special in a shoulder holster. As a matter of fact, we had one Crusader pilot, who was terrified of night flying off of the ship, and used his .38 like a hammer to break his right front windshield so the bird would be down and he wouldn't have to fly. That was never again a concern for him, the Skipper pulled his wings and had him transferred off of the ship. Even though, at the time. I was not Aircrew, I and all enlisted members of the squadron had to qualify annually on the .45 and on the .38. This was only 11 yars after WWII so I would think that the answer as to what B-25 crews carried was either/or a .38 or a .45, depending on a multitude of variables.
 
Naval aircrew were also issued tracer rounds for their .38s for SAR purposes. I don't know if they had them during WWII or if tracers were made for .45s, but I have read many accounts where the tracers were used to signal SAR assets.

Once I read of a plane (Navy) that went down in the Pacific during WWII. The survivors had both M1911s and .38 revolvers. According to the account, the pistols rusted to uselessness quickly, but the revolvers worked when needed.
 
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