Sig P365 Series - Extending the Manual Trigger Safety Lever

[Alllen Bundy]

The Sig P365 series, being designed for concealability, has controls of a minimum practical size. But this doesn't work well for everyone and it is not needed for all carry methods. Sig and other companies make larger magazine release buttons, and a larger and longer slide catch lever. But no company appears to be making a larger manual trigger safety lever that I am aware of.

Some people have modified their safety levers by brazing on a piece of stainless steel to make the lever larger and easier to operate.

See this earlier discussion:

Sig P365 extended thumb safety

I like the little Sig P365. Weight. Capacity. Reliability. Accuracy. it’s a great little carry gun. I’m also a huge fan of Off switches on guns. I carried a 1911 for many years. Shot IPSC. So I picked up a P365 with a manual safety. As a 1911 shooter, I’ve always shot thumb high, on the...

www.thehighroad.org

I didn't think that I needed an extended manual trigger safety lever until I actually tried it and now I do NOT want to go back to the original small sized lever ever again. My carry methods will easily tolerate a manual trigger safety lever that protrudes further outward.

I plan to eventually braze a piece of stainless steel onto my manual trigger safety levers. However that is a tricky operation and I want to get it right the first time. So I have been experimenting with the shape and size of the lever by adding JB Weld epoxy to the stock lever. JB Weld epoxy can easily be sanded to shape. If I screw up and remove too much epoxy, I can just add more epoxy and sand it to shape again as many times as necessary until I get it right. Then I'll try to recreate the size and shape of the lever with stainless steel and braze it onto the stock lever using 56% silver brazing rod.

There are very often physical limitations upon where a control may be placed on the pistol. As such, more often than not, WE need to adapt to the pistol as best we can. Everyone's hands are different and it is to be expected that one size and shape manual trigger safety lever will not fit all needs.

This is what I have done so far:



The stock manual trigger safety lever is on the far left on the P365 and it protrudes about 0.111". My first try adding epoxy to the right side lever on my P365 and it protrudes about 0.211". My second try adding epoxy to the left side lever of my P365XL and it protrudes about 0.210". For reference, the slide takedown lever protrudes about 0.103". The stock slide catch lever protrudes about 0.104". The XMacro slide catch lever protrudes about 0.171".

I can easily manipulate either of these extended manual trigger safety levers and it is a huge improvement for my thumb vs the stock size lever. Either shape will still fit into my holsters without causing any problems. However, I'm sure that I can reduce the amount of lever protrusion and still be able to easily manipulate the lever. I will probably reduce the protrusion to about 0.170", like the XMacro slide catch lever.



This photo shows all 3 controls from the top. This P365XL is also fitted with a longer XMacro magazine catch lever. FYI, I don't think that the additional protrusion of the slide catch lever helps as much as it's extra leverage from it's longer length does.



Compare to a P320 M18. I adjusted the photos to the same scale as best I could. The P320 is about 17.7% wider than the P365.

Calculating from the photo, the P320's safety lever appears to protrude about 0.292". Relatively speaking, the 0.211" protrusion of the safety lever on my P365XL is not even close to being extreme.



On the left you can see my thumb disengaging the safety lever. On the right I am engaging the safety lever. I have very long thumbs and I am basically manipulating the safety lever with the knuckle of my thumb. With this safety lever extension I can easily disengage and engage the safety lever without relaxing my grip on my pistol.



To hold the epoxy in place while it is curing, I shrunk a piece of heat shrink tubing over a deep well socket of the right size, let it cool and removed it. I then forced the tubing over the manual safety lever and then added the epoxy and let it cure. The biggest problem is creating air bubbles in the JB weld epoxy because it's consistency is so thick. Ideally, after placing the epoxy into the form, you should place it into a vacuum chamber to remove all of the air bubbles.



FYI, I find that pocket carry works better WITHOUT the right side manual trigger safety lever, so I cut it off. I can still actuate the left side lever manual trigger safety lever while I am holding my P365 in my left hand.

 

[Iggy]

Looks good.

 

[Hokkmike]

Beyond my capabilities, I have just practiced with and adapted t one safe as is. Nice work...

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Armory Craft Sig Sauer P365 - EXTENDED Safety

https://www.armorycraft.com/product-page/armory-craft-sig-sauer-p365-extended-safety

It would appear that a fair number of people don't think that the stock lever is large enough.

But I can tell from the photo that their design is not very well thought out. It's a more esthetic than ergonomic form over function design. An ergonomic design would taper smaller to the rear. With the rear of the lever being perpendicular to the pistol it is also more likely to catch on something. The most important area of the lever to protrude further is the front where you have the most leverage.

The pro of their design is that it is machined from a billet instead of being MIM.

Armory Craft is also making a larger takedown lever and larger slide catch lever that matches the safety lever.

 

[9mmepiphany]

It's a more esthetic than ergonomic form over function design.

Matches the other controls well. Looks like it would do a number on your thumb joint

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Matches the other controls well. Looks like it would do a number on your thumb joint

To be completely fair, I'm sure that the Armory Craft lever is easier to operate than the stock lever. But they could have done much better if they weren't so worried about all of the controls matching.

With either if the two lever shapes that I have mede so far, disengaging the safety is easy. Re-engaging the safety is what is uncomfortable on my thumb knuckle. It's okay if you are only disengaging the safety and re-engaging it a few times. But if I'm doing a drawing and dis-engaging drill and then re-engaing the safety before holstering my P365 it starts to bother my knuckle after 3 or 4 times.

 

[drobs]

Nice. However, the rest of the world calls that a Thumb Safety.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Nice. However, the rest of the world calls that a Thumb Safety.

I prefer a more descriptive and accurate term. That lever doesn't protect your thumb from anything.

It also differentiates it from the dongle on a Glock trigger witch is actually an inertial trigger safety.

 

[drobs]

I prefer a more descriptive and accurate term. That lever doesn't protect your thumb from anything.

It also differentiates it from the dongle on a Glock trigger witch is actually an inertial trigger safety.

Well that is crazy. A thumb safety on a pistol is activated by your thumb.

 

[JohnKSa]

I prefer a more descriptive and accurate term.

Yeah, except, of course, it's not accurate, and to the extent that it is descriptive it's mostly misleading. The P365 Manual safety is a sear-blocking safety. If you wanted to make up your own name for the part and accuracy was actually a concern, you would call it a Manual Sear Safety Lever or something along those lines.

It also differentiates it from the dongle on a Glock trigger witch...

There's really no need to differentiate it from a different safety on a different gun that is operated differently, placed differently on the gun and has a different function, and even if there were it wouldn't make sense to give it a name that is obviously incorrect.

 

[drobs]

Sig calls it a "manual safety."

SIG SAUER P365 with Manual Safety Now Shipping

SIG SAUER announces award-winning everyday carry, high capacity, P365 pistol with Manual Safety (P365-MS) is now shipping and available in retail stores.

www.sigsauer.com

Sig even has a definition for it:

Manual Safety

A manual safety is a device that is designed to prohibit the trigger function of a firearm.

www.sigsauer.com

A manual safety is a device that is designed to prohibit the trigger function of a firearm. It is distinct from an internal safety in that it requires the shooter to actively engage and disengage the safety, typically using the shooting hand thumb. Most rifles and shotguns have manual safeties, while many modern semi-automatic handguns like the SIG SAUER P320 have internal safeties.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Sig calls it a "manual safety."

SIG SAUER P365 with Manual Safety Now Shipping

SIG SAUER announces award-winning everyday carry, high capacity, P365 pistol with Manual Safety (P365-MS) is now shipping and available in retail stores.

www.sigsauer.com

Sig even has a definition for it:

Manual Safety

A manual safety is a device that is designed to prohibit the trigger function of a firearm.

www.sigsauer.com

A manual safety is a device that is designed to prohibit the trigger function of a firearm. It is distinct from an internal safety in that it requires the shooter to actively engage and disengage the safety, typically using the shooting hand thumb. Most rifles and shotguns have manual safeties, while many modern semi-automatic handguns like the SIG SAUER P320 have internal safeties.

FYI, the Sig P365 series has TWO safety levers. One is external that is manually operated. A second safety lever is actuated by the trigger which depresses the striker block that prevents the striker from moving the firing pin far enough to contact the primer cup.

Yeah, except, of course, it's not accurate, and to the extent that it is descriptive it's mostly misleading. The P365 Manual safety is a sear-blocking safety. If you wanted to make up your own name for the part and accuracy was actually a concern, you would call it a Manual Sear Safety Lever or something along those lines.

The manual trigger safety on a P365 prevents the trigger from being pulled far enough to release the sear by blocking the sear. How the trigger is prevented from being fully actuated is mostly irrelevant to the operator during actual use.

I can also actuate the manual trigger safety on my P365 with my index finger.

These days there are multiple types of safeties in pistols.

The P365 also has a takedown safety that prevents you from removing the slide with a magazine inserted.

When activated, the P365 manual trigger safety also prevents you from rotating the takedown lever.

Some pistols have a safety that prevent you from firing if a magazine is NOT inserted.

A Glock has a dongle on the trigger which is actually an inertial trigger safety.

And there is the venerable 1911 style grip safety that prevents you from firing if you don't grip the pistol hard enough.

The question to ask yourselves is did anyone NOT understand what I meant when I said manual trigger safety?

To be honest I never heard the term "thumb safety" until the internent. I typically heard "safety" or "manual safety" when I started shooting in the middle 1960's

 

[JohnKSa]

FYI, the Sig P365 series has TWO safety levers. One is external that is manually operated. A second safety lever is actuated by the trigger which depresses the striker block that prevents the striker from moving the firing pin far enough to contact the primer cup.

You're just typing for exercise. Absolutely nothing you wrote about the passive internal safety has any relevance to the comments you responded to about the manual safety.

The manual trigger safety on a P365 prevents the trigger from being pulled far enough to release the sear by blocking the sear.

The manual safety on the P365 does not prevent the trigger from being pulled nor does it block the trigger. It blocks the sear.

How the trigger is prevented from being fully actuated is mostly irrelevant to the operator during actual use.

The manual safety on the P365 is not a trigger safety (a safety that is integral to the trigger) nor is it a trigger blocking safety, it is a thumb-operated, sear-blocking safety. What it does is prevents the sear from being released. Your claim that its function is irrelevant is quite humorous given that, by your own actions, you continue to demonstrate that you feel it is highly relevant.

Look, no one's forcing you to be accurate, but the subject matter is not at all difficult to understand and the terminology is not confusing or ambiguous. You can continue trying to misdirect (writing about internal passive safeties in response to comments about the manual safety) or trying to twist the facts (tortured rationalization of how a sear-blocking manual safety can be a trigger safety) but if you do, it can't help but become blatantly obvious that although you claim you want to be accurate and descriptive, what you actually want is something else entirely.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

The manual safety on the P365 does not prevent the trigger from being pulled nor does it block the trigger. It blocks the sear.

Sure it does. Actuate the manual trigger safety and it prevents the trigger from being pulled far enough to release the sear. The fact that the manual safety limits the travel of the sear in order to limit the travel of the trigger in order to make the trigger inoperative is irrelevant. There is no way to access the sear to disengage it through external means to make the pistol fire. We do not physically pull the sear in order to fire the pistol. The purpose of the manual trigger safety is to render the trigger inoperative.

An alternative method to reder the trigger inoperative would be to push the trigger linkage out of position so that it cannot actuate the sear, just like the disconnector does. The fact that the manual trigger safety pushes the trigger linkage out of position does not make it any less a manual trigger safety.

Both methods have the same function. And that is to render the trigger inoperative

I use the term manual trigger safety to describe the function of the safety, not to describe how it accomplishes the task.

 

[JohnKSa]

I use the term manual trigger safety to describe the function of the safety...

You are describing it inaccurately. The function of the P365 manual safety is is to block the sear. If you want to describe the safety accurately, then that's how it works and that's how to describe it.

Both methods have the same function. And that is to render the trigger inoperative.

That is inaccurate. They have different functions. One blocks or disconnects the trigger, one blocks the sear. This is an important distinction. Even if a trigger safety operates properly there is still the possibility that the sear could be released somehow--perhaps by inertia or a parts failure. That would potentially allow the gun to fire even though the trigger itself is blocked or disconnected. But if a sear-blocking safety operates properly the sear is locked in place and can't be released. Sear-blocking safeties, such as the one in your pistol, are therefore considered to have a more positive effect than trigger safeties in terms of reducing the chances of an unintentional discharge.

Sure it does. Actuate the manual trigger safety and it prevents the trigger from being pulled far enough to release the sear.

That is inaccurate. It blocks the sear. The trigger is not blocked or disconnected by the safety because the safety is not a trigger safety. The trigger is prevented from releasing the sear because the sear is blocked by the sear-blocking safety. You can contrast this function with the function of a trigger safety which either locks the trigger in place (rendering the trigger incapable of being moved) or disconnects it (making it incapable of contacting the sear). A sear blocking safety does neither of those things.

You can easily verify this for yourself. And, of course, you will--if you truly wish to be accurate and descriptive. Some reading material to help out.

NRA Family | Top 4 Most Important Active Firearm Safety Systems

A tutorial on the active safety systems you may find on a gun, and what they do.

www.nrafamily.org

 

[Alllen Bundy]

That is inaccurate. They have different functions. One blocks or disconnects the trigger, one blocks the sear. This is an important distinction. Even if a trigger safety operates properly there is still the possibility that the sear could be released somehow--perhaps by inertia or a parts failure. That would potentially allow the gun to fire even though the trigger itself is blocked or disconnected. But if a sear-blocking safety operates properly the sear is locked in place and can't be released. Sear-blocking safeties, such as the one in your pistol, are therefore considered to have a more positive effect than trigger safeties in terms of reducing the chances of an unintentional discharge.

While blocking the sear may have additional benefits, it it not the main purpose of the manual trigger safety, which is to render the trigger inoperative so that unintentional actuation of the trigger will not allow the firearm to fire.

If the P365 was NOT drop safe and needed some sort of inertial safety, Sig would NOT have used a manual sear block to make the pistol drop safe as the pistol could still fire when dropped if the manual trigger safety was not engaged. Sig would have needed to use some other method to make the pistol drop safe.

That is inaccurate. It blocks the sear. The trigger is not blocked or disconnected by the safety because the safety is not a trigger safety. The trigger is prevented from releasing the sear because the sear is blocked by the sear-blocking safety. You can contrast this function with the function of a trigger safety which either locks the trigger in place (rendering the trigger incapable of being moved) or disconnects it (making it incapable of contacting the sear). A sear blocking safety does neither of those things.

The function of the manual trigger safety in a P365 is to render the trigger inoperative so that unintentional actuation fo the trigger will NOT fire the pistol. It accomplishes this task by limiting the travel of the sear which in turn limits the travel of the trigger. The trigger is BLOCKED from it's full travel. Whether the trigger is directly blocked by the manual trigger safety lever or it is blocked by something else that the manual trigger safety puts into the path of the trigger, the trigger is still blocked! You physically cannot pull the trigger all of the way. The trigger is blocked and rendered inoperable.

If the manual trigger safety of the P365 instead pushed the trigger linkage out of alignment, the trigger would NOT be blocked from it's full travel, yet the trigger would still be rendered inoperative, and the main purpose of the manual trigger safety would remain unchanged.

Two differnt methods with the same result. They both render the trigger inoperative.

Theoretically a manual trigger safety could also use both methods at the same time to render the trigger inoperative. But the purpose of the manual trigger safety woudl remain the same, and that is to render the trigger inoperative so that unintentional actuation of the trigger will not allow the firearm to fire.

You can easily verify this for yourself. And, of course, you will--if you truly wish to be accurate and descriptive. Some reading material to help out.

There was nothing there that I didn't already know.

 

[JohnKSa]

The function of the manual trigger safety in a P365 is to render the trigger inoperative so that unintentional actuation fo the trigger will NOT fire the pistol.

1. As you well know, there is no "manual trigger safety" on the P365.
2. The main purpose of the manual sear-blocking safety on the P365 is to prevent the gun from firing. It does this by blocking the sear, not by "rendering the trigger inoperative".

The trigger is BLOCKED from it's full travel.

The sear is blocked. It's typical for sear blocking safeties to have the incidental effect of limiting trigger travel when the trigger runs up against the blocked sear, but that does not change the classification of the safety.

Two different methods with the same result.

Ultimately all safeties have the same result--they prevent the gun from firing unintentionally if they operate as intended. That doesn't change the fact that different types of safeties operate differently. Specifically, blocking the sear is a different, and more positive approach than blocking the trigger.

There was nothing there that I didn't already know.

That's a damning admission. I will take it at face value.

Taken together with your other posts on this thread it means that you are:

1. Intentionally making up terminology which you know conflicts with the manufacturer's statement, which conflicts with common sense, is contrary to functional descriptions and which you know conflicts with convention and existing definitions.
2. Obsessively repeating fabricated descriptions and definitions that you admit you know are incorrect as if that can somehow give them more weight or validity.
3. Generating obfuscatory, tortuous and obviously flawed explanations in an attempt to justify statements that you admit you know are inaccurate.
4. Claiming to be interested in being descriptive and accurate while your actions make it painfully clear that not only is that not the case you actually are actively opposing both of those ends.

That's very disappointing.

Well, whatever your motive, since you claim you know the facts and yet it's clear you refuse to be swayed by them, continuing this exchange is the definition of pointless. To paraphrase Jonathan Swift, you can't use facts to convince a man to give up a position he didn't adopt based on facts. Carry on, then. If you wander too far afield, expect accurate/descriptive information to be posted, not to change your mind but to clarify and correct, to help others avoid confusion and in the interest of the THR's mission of advancing responsible firearm ownership and providing the highest quality of firearms discussion on the internet.