Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Girodin, Oct 21, 2011.
Thoughts on which of these two, if either I should get?
And is this for carry, HD, range, or....?
Never dealt with Sig customer service but if you plan on owning it a long time, that's something to consider.
Here's a link to thread I recently posted regarding my experience with SA. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=621029
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92823#Post92823. That article and the well known smith that pointed it out to me forever changed my thinking in regards to those parts. They are easy enough to tune if need be and they are ever so similar to those found in nearly every modern handgun be it Glock 17 or Beretta 92.
Keep in mind that SA warrants their firearms to the original owner so while repairs may be made without question, it is not their obligation to do so.
As far as which to buy, I'd choose neither. You can get a brand new Sig 1911 with rail for $20 more than the Tac Ops and they all use the same parts (save grips and finishes). The Springfield seems rather cheap which sends up the red flag (or maybe local prices are high where I live). You could be in to a Range Officer for under $800, brand new and know that it hasn't been modified.
If you're not intimately familiar with the platform or the particular firearm in question then buying used can be more costly than buying new.
That test was setup to make sure the muzzle impacted. It took a drop of 6 feet onto concrete to get a .45 ACP size Ti firing to discharge 1 of 6 times. That's eye level or above for most folks. I'll have to dig up the old Army trials which demonstrated that somewhere in the 3 to 4 foot free fall drop range the extra mass at the rear of the weapon brings it around, and causes the side or rear of the pistol to impact.
The lesson from that test is not that you need a firing pin safety in a 1911. The lesson is that if you're carrying in an elevated environment (horseback riding, working from ladders, etc) you should be using a retention holster. That goes for any gun. If you want extra insurance buy a .45 or 9mm Ti firing pin, and extra heavy FP spring, and install them in your 1911.
Also, notice Hilton Yam's comment in reply:
I now consider my previous concerns unfounded and illogical. If the timing is correct it will function properly. If it is not, it will be evident rather quickly and can be serviced.
Were it my money to spend in that price range I'd buy a Colt. I'd have no major qualms with the models the OP mentioned or the new Ruger.
It was a free fall test that forced the pistol to land on the muzzle by the setup. If you're breaking a fall with a pistol muzzle things are already going south, and there's some training that needs to be addressed.
The difference is that those guns were designed with striker blocks from the ground up. These weren't later add ons.
I used to think that until I had a 1911 FP block only after several hundred rounds. When the FP block breaks the pistol is useless. Swarz safeties (not in the pistols mentioned in the OP) are even tougher to time.
If your pistol chewed through a firing pin block to the point of breakage then it is you who might want to consider better training in inspecting your weapon. Ditto if you don't plan on a stoppage by carrying a back up, which in your case will be limited in choice due your distrust of firing pin blocks.
In regards to government testing the Series 80 safety came about due to military trials that required such a system. Not new, not rocket science, not a ground up venture, merely a copy of what all other bidders were doing.
If you have your preferences so be it but your portrayal of the parts in question in my estimation is neither typical nor logical. Would you distrust and rid yourself of a non-FPB equipped pistol if its firing pin, slide stop or firing pin stop failed? Those parts too will render the pistol temporarily inoperable. As one poster in another thread here wrote, paraphrasing, would you sell a firearm with thousands of proven rounds when it experiences its first failure?
It was fully inspected after every range trip. The failure was sudden and catastrophic. Thankfully I caught it during such a post range cleaning & inspection. You assume to know everything about my gun cleaning & maintenance routine. You don't know a [email protected] thing about how I clean & inspect my weapons, so leave that out of the conversation.
Again, you're assuming I don't. Whether or not I do, what it is or isn't, and where I do or don't carry it is for me to know.
I don't distrust firing pin blocks. I only distrust them on 1911s based on experience. Obviously you could give a crap a what I think. You seem to be a fan of 10-8 though, so you should read what Hilton Yam says about FP blocks in 1911s. Maybe you'll trust his word -
By the way, I do own one Series 80 Colt, because there are no Series 70 Delta Elites. It's not a carry gun though, so I made an exemption. I still may take the 80 series parts out. I might even have a local smith fill the safety actuator frame cutouts with weld to correctly finish the job.
To answer some of your points: 1 in 6 firings from 6' is the same odds as Russian Roulette which I don't play and which, as you point out, is eye level for most shooters. That is also the approximate level a shooter like me at 6' 3" raises the pistol to in order to align it with my eyes. Hilton Yam fan? Not particularly, it was Chuck Rogers of Rogers Precision that posted that link for me when I made comments similar to your own. I thank him for enlightening me, though at the time I had no intention of being schooled on the matter.
A personal story I might share is the following account from Thursday of this past week. It was muzzleloader season for whitetail in Iowa and I was out hunting as usual. After calling 5 deer, some within 30 yards, I settled in on the largest doe, aimed, squeezed and click. I pulled back the plunger on my Knight rifle, rechecked both safeties and click. 5 clicks and I quickly dislodged the 209 primer carrier and replaced it with another. Click. Reset the bolt a seventh time, found my now available shot on a button buck and boom, dropped him in his tracks. My father's first words were "Time for a Thompson Center." Remember, it was the primers that had failed, not the rifle. My response, cheaper to replace the faulty batch of primers. The moral, every critical part must function properly for things to work and when it doesn't, correct the offender. Giving up early is both expensive and impulsive. Let's please leave things to the OP to consider, we've enough point/counter point already.
One thing I can say for certain is that I will NEVER get rid of my Sig! Runs like a top and is accurate as hell.
Skyler, no doubt that test was eye opening. It lead me to order a Ti firing pin for my pre Series II Kimber. Wolff has begun including an extra power FP spring with most of their recoil springs, so that's already on hand. I just did some drop testing of my own, and I'll start a new thread once I get the data entered on the computer.
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