Silencer on a muzzle loader.

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barnetmill

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Posing a hypothetical question.

Assume very light charges of a quick burning double base smokeless powder in a small caliber muzzle loader of say about a .32 cal rifle made of modern heat treated steel. Would a silencer work on such a weapon. Major problem would seem to be loading such an equipped muzzle loader. I am not planning to do something like this and I am only curious from an academic point of view if anyone has experimented with such a thing.
To avoid NFA rulings it would seem that such an assembly might be legal if the part of the silencer is welded to the muzzle loader so it could not be used on a modern firearm. It is my understanding that silencers on airguns are illegal since in theory they could be placed on a firearm and if they silence only once before being destroyed by muzzle blast they are illegal. If the moderators find this question objectionable I will not be offended if it gets suppressed (play on words that is to say deleted) and I will ask elsewhere.
 
If the silencer was permenantly attached to the black power barrel, then it would be legal without a tax stamp by federal law. State laws may vary. You could use a long drop tube to get the powder past the silencer and into the barrel, but you would find the silencer losing effectiveness after only a few shots as much of the residue would be trapped in the can.

I think using a removable end cap to allow for removal and cleaning of the baffles puts you on thin ice too. I make silencers as a hobby for my smokless guns and think that they are not worth it for blackpowder.

Ranb
 
Assume very light charges of a quick burning double base smokeless powder in a small caliber muzzle loader
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I think the OP hopes to evade registration and taxation while avoiding having to clean the 65% solids black powder residue out of his suppressor.

It sounds like a real neat loophole but I think that if it came to official attention you would get to explain your reasoning in court. At your expense.
 
barnetmill said:
you need to get your facts straight before offering a reply.
http://www.pyramydair.com/gamo-whisper-review.shtml
The gamo whisper does have a device that reduces the sound of an air rifle and it is legal so please look into the facts before replying. I am not sure if a muzzle loader is a firearm according to the NFA.
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Looking at the Pyramid site, the article does not say that the BATFE has approved the silencer as legal...it simply says that a "class three dealer" has opined that it is okay. The article goes on to say, "In other words, it wouldn't silence a firearm for even one shot, which is what BATF&E looks for."

Trying to determine what the BAT-men 'look for' could use up a lot of my time and leave me no wiser. It appears that, because of the holes in the side of the wee beastie, that it is more of a muzzle brake than a silencer. But given that there are no hot/explosive gases to contain, it can apparently bleed off some of the air to reduce the pop at the muzzle. And the fact that it appears to be permanently attached helps a lot.

Blackpowder muzzle loaders are not firearms "according to the NFA" [sic], nor under the GCA. They ARE so classified by certain state statutes, but federal law does not control or limit them.

But federal law (and others) do restrict silencers. Permanently mounting one on a muzzle loader might be permissible, but it would be a good idea to ask for a specific ruling from ATF before proceeding.

YMMV
 
i am not proceeding with such a project and did findout here what I wanted to know in that it is a loop hole in the law that I will not test. Regular ATF tax stamped silencers are not that expensive and I was just asking to know. I do not have any machinery or tooling to do so if I wanted and no gunsmith that I know would try such a thing.

Another loophole that exists with muzzle loaders is that you can get multiple shots from a single barrel with one pull of the trigger by using multiple charges that are specially loaded. The first one sets off the one behind and so on. It can not be stopped until all of the charges are fired and must not have been practical since to my knowledge it was never used in battle.
 
I would offer that it really isn't a "loophole" since muzzle loaders are not "firearms" so some rules simply don't apply at all. Firing more than one shot with only one pull of the trigger would not make a muzzle loader a 'machinegun'...just an odd gun. (If you have ever had a black powder revolver "chain fire" on you when the spark from one chamber jumps to the others, it can be pretty exciting...but still not illegal.)

I had heard of the charges you describe, but only in passing. Might you have a ready reference so I can read up?
 
Unfortunately I can not point you to the source. I read an article in what I recall was called boy's life (I think it was a boyscout magazine) at a YMCA in Gary, Ind about maybe 1959 or so on a naval gun that had several revolving chambers that each contained IIRC about 10 rounds pr chamber. You fired one of the revolving chambers that fired at a rate of maybe one round a second. Then you moved to the next one into line and set its 10 rounds off. So I have no ready reference to it.
But it still is interesting that muzzle loading weapons can do a lot more than many people and our lawmakers will give them credit for in combat. Of course I prefer my AK and glock these days.
I suppose for the ATF an accidental flash over in a cap and ball revolver would not be of any more concern than a double barrel shotgun that sets both barrels off from one pull of the trigger since these are obviously malfunctions.
 
Yup...Boy's Life was (and still is) the official Boy Scouts magazine. Now it is online.

Cap and ball revolvers probably took as many lives in their history as did many 'modern' handguns...and you can still buy them through the mail. Interesting.
 
Center and rimfire cartridge guns have been in common use now for about 150 yrs. Cap and ball pistols commonly were used say about ~1830 to 1900 for combat. So I would guess that the Cap and Ball have killed fewer people. I have never seen an estimate. but the bottom line is that wild bill Hitchc0ck did quite with his .36 navy colt revolvers as could anyone once you learned to load them.
 
MasterSargent: Looking at the Pyramid site, the article does not say that the BATFE has approved the silencer as legal...it simply says that a "class three dealer" has opined that it is okay. The article goes on to say, "In other words, it wouldn't silence a firearm for even one shot, which is what BATF&E looks for."
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This airgun has been in production for several yrs now without the BATFE saying anything. In fact in: http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2005-4.pdf
For a paint ball gun it was found that as long as the permanently fixed silencer was not removed by cutting it off the barrel the silencer was not illegal.
A large company has lawyers and has a better chance of putting these ATF officials in their place. For me with limited income it would a terror to run afoul of the any government agency. I will ask questions and discuss but really for my personal arms I steer away for SBRs, silencers and such. Long barreled .22 rifles with lightly loaded rounds are very quiet and for predator control they are enough.
 
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Based on BATF letters regarding airguns and paintball guns, which are not firearms, a *permanently attached* silencer on a muzzle loader would seem to be legal. So if you machined it into a muzzleloading barrel you'd probably be okay. Maybe ;-) But since there's a legal route to owning a silencer in most states, why even try to do an end run?
 
Sounds like a job for Red Jacket!
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I live about 3-3.5 hrs from red jacket's business. But as stated earlier all of this is just hypothetical. I was once thinking of taking some things there (S12), but there have recently been some rumors of dissatisfied customers and Suarez International on friendly terms did sever there relationship with them. Problem is when you become big it can be harder to keep up with QC. I know someone locally that manufactures suppressors, but for him he would want to go directly to the BATFE prior to doing any silencer without a tax stamp and get a letter allowing it to be made.
 
I went to sleep after reading this thread, and a solution came to me in a dream. Why not make the bore of the silencer a tiny bit wider than the bore of the not-gun, then attach a removable steel tube to the inside to protect the baffles for loading. Remove the tube for firing. Seems feasible.

Edit: I must have been really tired last night...missed post #6.
 
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I already dreamed that up in post #6.

I have a silencer suitable for use on my black powder guns, but it gets crudded up enough using center fire cast bullets, I am not going to mess the can up with blackpowder or pyrodex.

Ranb
 
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