Simple powder measures.. handgun brass ?

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jstein650

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Bear with me, but after much searching, I have reached my breaking point. So I will post my question to THR without further dithering: I'm here with my new Pietta 1858 New Army .44 .. without any kind of volumetric measure. I have a digital reloading scale. I have Pyrodex P.
Some time recently I saw that some fellow had measured and listed a good number of common handgun brass and the amount of blackpowder and BP eq's they would hold.
Can I not just weigh out what charge I'm looking for, then find something that will hold that volume? From what I've been able to gather, the answer somehow seems to be 'no'.
I'm looking to throw 28, 30, 32 gr (eq.) charges.
Which brings me to another question... Pyrodex-P is about 78% the density of real BP, right?.. So, for example, 30 grains of BP would equal 23.4 gr. of Pyrodex-P, right?...
I realize the whole BP thing is a lot more quick-n-dirty than precision benchrest rifle loading & shooting and such, but I'd like a few tips from those in the game.. Thanks.
 
The quick answer is;
Smokeless powder is measured by weight
Black powder is measured by volume
Apples and oranges.
 
I know BP and equivalents are measured by volume. I know smokeless is measured by weight. I've been reloading smokeless for over 20 years. My ? was, if I have no convenient volume measure, how might I go about getting a handle on measuring a given quantity of Pyrodex-P with only a scale. (and I don't have any real BP on hand to get a standardized comparison volume measure)
 
It will 'weigh' out differently every time on a powder scale so nobody can say for sure if that is the exact 'weight' of the charge. Sorry, but you're going to have to buy a powder measure before shooting black powder.
 
Just checked. A full .45acp case will hold 25 grains by volume of Pyrodex P, can't help you with the other calibers

Just did an eyeball side by side comparison of some pyrodex p and some swiss 4f and the granule size is similar, the pyrodex looks just a wee bit smaller.

I use my .45 acp case as a measure for my Ruger old army for plinking with 3F Goex BP.

I've used that same load in my 1858 with good results also. you should experiment with lubed wads over the powder or cream of wheat or corn meal filler over the powder. Mine shoots a little better with the ball closer to the forcing cone.
 
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Gemmer said:
The quick answer is;
Smokeless powder is measured by weight
Black powder is measured by volume
Apples and oranges.
Click to expand...
I think that black powder is also weighed by scale. It is just that the substitutes by volume, weigh considerably less than black powder and if you scaled pyrodex, you'd have a way to heavy charge, thus the volume to volume measure. On the other hand, we weigh out our volume measures on a scale for my loads.

Aloha.. :cool:
 
jstein650 said:
...Can I not just weigh out what charge I'm looking for, then find something that will hold that volume? ...
Click to expand...

Volume wight of Black Powder is roughly equal to Volume Weight of Water.

So if you weigh the water it takes to fill the "something" you are talking about that is basically the Volume Weight of Black Powder it holds.
 
I think you are making this much too hard.

Cheap volumetric measures are easy to find. You don't have to use the expensive hopper and metering device that you are used to using with smokeless powder. And if you insist on weighing black powder charges you are adding an unnecessary complication.

The classic brass powder flask with calibrated spout will give you all the precision you need. You can customize the volumes by getting multiple spouts and trimming them as your heart desires. Or you can invest a whole $12 in a set of Lee dippers. Either option will give you repeatable volumes for charging the cylinders. You say you want to use 28, 30, and 32 grain charges? I don't think you are going to see any performance difference from one charge to another within that narrow range. Maybe a finely tuned target pistol would group differently, but I doubt it will make any difference in a Pietta Navy .44.

Forget the weight scale. Use volumes and the differences in powders becomes irrelevant. They are manufactured to produce equivalent charges by volume. The fun of black powder is the freedom it gives you to vary charges widely without creating a pipe bomb.

Rule of thumb: 1 cc of powder is 15 grains. Happy?
 
J-Bar said:
Rule of thumb: 1 cc of powder is 15 grains. Happy?
Click to expand...
I can use that rule of thumb. First I've heard of it. Thanks for that!

BTW, I use a 45ACP case with a copper wire soldered to it for a handle to charge my Pietta NMA .44. Works like a charm for loads just as accurate as I can shoot 'em.
 
Years ago when I was broke I used brass pistol cases for powder measures. I dont remember what held a given amount. I used 357 mag, 45 and 9 mm cases. It worked fine.
I kinda doubt that back in the day the shooters used exact measures for their cap and ball revolvers. Just sayin
 
Rattus58 said:
I think that black powder is also weighed by scale. It is just that the substitutes by volume, weigh considerably less than black powder and if you scaled pyrodex, you'd have a way to heavy charge, thus the volume to volume measure. On the other hand, we weigh out our volume measures on a scale for my loads.

Aloha.. :cool:
Click to expand...
Black powder is NOT. It is by volume
 
The Dixie Gun Works catalog has always had a list of cases and their black powder capacity.
BP has a bulk density pretty close to 1.0 so if you know the water capacity of a case, that is close enough for black powder.
Charts both ways at
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432112

Imitation powders are loaded volume for volume with real black. Don't worry about the density, just scoop up the volume you are accustomed to.

You can slop around with dippers for cap and ball, but when loading black powder cartridges, I follow the advice of the Sharps Rifle Co. from about 140 years ago: "For fine shooting, powder should be weighed on a scale."
 
A brimful .38 Special case will hold approximately 25 grains equivalent volume. OK?
 
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I think you are making this much too hard.

Cheap volumetric measures are easy to find. You don't have to use the expensive hopper and metering device that you are used to using with smokeless powder. And if you insist on weighing black powder charges you are adding an unnecessary complication.

The classic brass powder flask with calibrated spout will give you all the precision you need. You can customize the volumes by getting multiple spouts and trimming them as your heart desires. Or you can invest a whole $12 in a set of Lee dippers. Either option will give you repeatable volumes for charging the cylinders. You say you want to use 28, 30, and 32 grain charges? I don't think you are going to see any performance difference from one charge to another within that narrow range. Maybe a finely tuned target pistol would group differently, but I doubt it will make any difference in a Pietta Navy .44.

Forget the weight scale. Use volumes and the differences in powders becomes irrelevant. They are manufactured to produce equivalent charges by volume. The fun of black powder is the freedom it gives you to vary charges widely without creating a pipe bomb.

Rule of thumb: 1 cc of powder is 15 grains. Happy?
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J-Bar
Click to expand...

What J-Bar said ^
 
A .45 ACP case holds 28 grains of 3Fg black powder and it will hold an equivalent volume charge of Pyrodex P.

A .38 Spl case holds 22 grains of 3FG B-P and will hold an equivalent volume charge of Pyrodex.

With that out of the way, let me say that the idea that smokeless powder is measured by weight and black powder is measured by volume, and that they are two different things is an old wives tale.

Just think about this for a moment. Let's say you load Unique powder using an RCBS Uniflow powder measure (just as an example). You have a certain weight of powder that you want to use as your charge in each case. So you try to adjust your Uniflow measure to get close, then you weigh a sample charge. Lets say you need 7.8 grains of Unique for a .45 Colt load, but the scale shows you are throwing 8.2 grains. So you shorten up the adjusting screw on the Uniflow and weigh another sample. You do that until the measure consistently throws 7.8 grains of Unique. Then you lock it down and start loading.

Every time you adjusted the screw on the Uniflow, you were changing the volume of the measure's powder chamber. You checked it on a scale to get the right weight of charge, but each time you crank the handle to load powder in a piece of brass, you are throwing a volume charge of smokeless, using the Uniflow.

Black powder works exactly the same way. Those lines with numbers on your powder measure got there because some technician figured out that that weight of black powder takes up that much space (volume) in the measure.

Top BPCR shooters weigh every charge and use drop tubes and vibrators to get the powder settled in the case.

So, all powder charges, smokeless or B-P are calibrated by weight, but most of them are then loaded by volume. The exception is precision target ammo, where each case is charged by weight. That goes for B-P and smokeless.

The monkey wrench that B-P substitutes throw into the mix is that they are lighter in weight than real B-P, but they are close in volume to real B-P. Manufacturers could give load data for them by weight, but, since they expect most shooters to use powder measures made for real black powder, it is safer for them to say to load the subs on an equal volume basis with black powder.
 
.22 LR = 5

.320 ACP = 7


.380 ACP = 10


.30 cal Carbine = 20


.38 Special = 23


.357 Mag = 27


.45 Auto = 26


.44 Colt = 35


.45 Colt = 41


.38-40 = 40


.30-30 = 42


.30-06 = 70


.45-70 = 83

BOTTLE NECKED RIFLE BRASS CUT at the start of the neck angle !

These are by weight in grains with either FFg or FFFg Blackpowder.

NOT FOR USE WITH FFFFg !!!!!!

I've found my adjustable blackpowder measure drops the same in weight that it does in volume with FFg.

Have not used this info for Pyrodex or other blackpowder substitutes.
 
Mike is correct. I'm certainly not a top BPCR shooter, heck I'm not even a bottom BPCR shooter but I do measure my powder for my Sharps. I measure each charge. I use a Lyman/Ideal number 55 powder measure to throw 70 gr of Swiss 2F. Then I weigh it on an RCBS Chargemaster to make sure it weighs exactly 70 gr. For grins, upon reading this thread, I got out my brass adjustable black powder measure and poured a charge right out of my Lyman 55 into it. Guess what? It came up to exactly the 70 gr setting. I don't use any BP substitutes so I can't comment on that aspect. As Mike said, ( great explanation by the way), we weigh all of our charges, but we fill up the spaces inside the case with a volume of powder.
 
Thanks guys for all the replies. THR is the best.. incidentally, I have an adjustable brass measure on the way. I was trying to improvise something quickly for a little camping trip with my son, and to make some noise on the 4th.. Anyway it all worked out, and I know a good deal more now than I did before..
 
I use a level scoop with a 45acp shell with 2F and a level scoop with a S&W .40 shell for 3F

Then depending on what powder i level the scoop and dump it onto my digital scale and round it to the nearest and weigh all of them from there.

So i first use those 2 shells for the volume amount then weigh it and continue to weigh them all as i pre load how many i plan to shoot for the day.

I like the short fat shells because they are easier to get into the container. I started with a 357 and a 38sp shell but they are long and smaller around which makes them harder to scoop with i felt.

My range is full of 45acp and .40 but the 357 and 38 are a little harder to find.

jstein650 said:
Thanks guys for all the replies. THR is the best.. incidentally, I have an adjustable brass measure on the way. I was trying to improvise something quickly for a little camping trip with my son, and to make some noise on the 4th.. Anyway it all worked out, and I know a good deal more now than I did before..
Click to expand...

I have one of those and it just adds more time and tools to your gear. If you sitck with it you will eventually use something fixed and set to the amount you like. The little scoops are less wasteful also.

The adjustable will need something with a spout to pour the powder into then you will have to brush off the excess
 
Water weight = BP weight...
Click to expand...
Close... but use this:
1111kaw.jpg

Personally, I just cut (45-70/357) cases to a specific (weighed) weight of actual powder and mark it w/ weight/Fg-size.

That's how all my range work is done for both rifles and pistols.
 
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Is the word "grain" used only in muzzleloading as a volume measurement?
Click to expand...
No. It is in fact the standard weight unit of measure for all powders -- black or smokeless.

Black powder is still based on unit weight, though the "volume" associated w/ that weight
is often used as an approximation for field expedient/practical purposes.
 
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