Single-Action Accuracy Tips

[Matt304]

So who here has mastered the single-action revolver from the bench?

What are your 25 yard groups like? What about 50 yard groups?

I have really learned lately that these guns can be a handful to get good with. I have been shooting a Ruger Blackhawk using 45LC +P 250gr cast rounded-flat-nose loads at around 1300fps, and have a 2.5lb trigger. I use a Holosight for better aim, and I think it just downright rocks for that. However, my gun only has a 4-5/8" barrel, which may be hurting the potential a bit. I am at the point where I don't feel I can get any more steady than I am from the rest, yet my groups aren't improving to where I think they should be.

I have greatly improved since I started, but I'm pretty much sitting at around 1.5-2" 25 yard groups. When I move out to 50 yards, my groups open to about 6-7".

I'm trying to hold the gun exactly the same for every shot, with the same hand pressure on it and hand position. I use shooting gloves and I am very concentrated and comfortable at this point I feel. Do you guys think there is a bit more potential from this setup, or is this a fairly typical outcome from a single-action with a shorter barrel and hotter loads?

 

[BlkHawk73]

Maybe try altering your load and/or ulltet. just becasue it's what you want doesn't mean it's what the gun likes.

 

[Matt304]

If trigger control is good and there is no flinch involved, do hotter loads usually decrease accuracy over the light loads? The only reason I have been keeping them hot is for a deer hunting type of round, but as you say, I could try them at lower energy levels and see how it shoots.

 

[rcmodel]

Single-Actions require a very firm grip for best accuracy.

Any variation in grip allows the gun to start rolling in your hand differently before the bullet clears the barrel.
If you are getting vertical stringing to any extent, that might be your problem.

Gotta squeeze'm like you were choking rattlesnakes to get good groups.
The exact same amount each shot.

rcmodel

 

[Matt304]

Ah, maybe I should try tightening even more then. I am not exactly relaxed, but I am also not exerting a large amount of force on the hold, just moderately.

Should I put great deal of forward and downward pressure against the rest as well? Maybe the recoil is moving the barrel a small amount before the bullet leaves without enough downward force.

 

[Old Fuff]

The plow-handled Colt single action was designed to roll up in the hand, and at longer ranges with heavy loads you are likely to see vertical strings.

One possible solution with a Ruger Blackhawk would be to subsitute a Bisley grip frame for the one now on the revolver. While this works, it's expensive. The Bisley shape tends to reduce the rolling effect, and is much favored by those that shoot heavy "Ruger only" loads. A conversion kit can be purchased from www.brownells.com, or you can buy the parts directly from Ruger.

Another less expensive option might be custom stocks that are checkered, and cover the backstrap to make it straighter. A tighter hold on smooth stocks would get you far.

 

[Matt304]

I should have mentioned that I do have a Hogue grip installed, and it is very comfortable. It also seems to fit my smaller hands perfectly.

I will load up some more rounds and get back to the range with a tighter hold to see what happens then.

 

[Ultima-Ratio]

Loads Are Too Warm

The best target loads are light for the smoothest follow through

Ruger? I'll wager your chamber throats are undersized for the cast bullets

Tiny bit of cylinder wobble? Belt Mountain base pin!

How heavy is the trigger pull? Creep?

Search Taylor Throat.

 

[Ruger1280]

Hi Guys - I'm New to this forum - thought I would add my 2 Cents worth ...

Matt304,you didn't specify what sights you are using. Another thing that will cause you groups to spread and even change the point of impact is be sure that the Pistol butt is not rested on a surface - be sure that you are holding it firmly. If the butt of the pistol is resting on a hard surface it drastically changes the moment of recoil, so rest only the frame or barrel.

I won't repeat what the other guys said here - I think they covered the other variables very well.


This is a 25 YD target - I haven't yet shot or chronoed any other distances yet.

Dave

 

[.38 Special]

I'll disagree with the idea that hot loads are inaccurate in the old Colt, or that reduced loads are the best way to obtain accuracy. In that big old case, many people find that warm loads with plenty of space-filling powder work best. When Ross Seyfried proved "minute of angle" was possible with his 5-shot Bowen Bisley he was using full-power "five shot" loads.

 

[Virginian]

How big is the dot in your Holosight. A 2" 25 yard group ought to translate into a 4" 50 yard group unless you are shooting in a gale.

 

[Matt304]

Ruger1280, the Holosight I mentioned above is what I use for a sight. I like it because you can keep both eyes open.

I do not rest the butt of the gun. I rest the barrel in a padded v-notch about 7" high, and my arms rest on a towel. So the butt is about 2" high in my hands.

How big is the dot in your Holosight. A 2" 25 yard group ought to translate into a 4" 50 yard group unless you are shooting in a gale.

Virginian, you would think so, but my groups really seem to open up at 50 yards for whatever reasons. The Holosight is probably only 3MOA in the center dot if I had to guess. I do think a scope would improve accuracy at 50 yards, but for now I'm still working on 25 yard groups.

 

[Ultima-Ratio]

Ah So Everyone?

38 Special said-
I'll disagree with the idea that hot loads are inaccurate in the old Colt, or that reduced loads are the best way to obtain accuracy. In that big old case, many people find that warm loads with plenty of space-filling powder work best. When Ross Seyfried proved "minute of angle" was possible with his 5-shot Bowen Bisley he was using full-power "five shot" loads.

Somehow I'll guess that the OP isn't near the shooter Ross is?
Because Ross shot minute of angle @100yds with a $3000.00 custom (which duplicates what many did with the early S&W 29s) makes little sense with what the OP questioned.

BTW, IF you ever attempt accuracy shooting like for example NRA bullseye, take note that everyone shoots .22 rimfire more accurately than even say 38 Special.

 

[Majic]

Try shooting loads at more moderate speeds first to see if you can improve your groups. Second when shooting the hot loads try going up in bullet weight. The longer and heavier 300 grainers shoot better out at long ranges. In fact some revolvers prefer the heavy bullets over the 250 grainers.

 

[Rem.222]

Ruger1280 what cartrige are you shooting in that pic it appears to be a bottleneck? Sorry Hijack this thread.
R.

 

[Matt304]

Ok guys, I held the gun down a lot harder today against the rest and was able to put my first 2 shots dead center through the bullseye doing it that way. The problem was that I was exerting too much force, and my hold started getting sloppy and my trigger pull started getting a little more forceful to pull the shot, which ended up spanning the group back to 2" again. Unfortunately, I only had 8 shots left of my reloads and my loading setup wasn't near me. It's going to take a lot of ammo I think before I can really get a hold like that going all of the time and stay steady.

But on the good side of things, hopefully you guys have me onto something now.

I did a lot of dry firing today as well, and I noticed that I really don't have my hold down to very consistent level when the trigger breaks. Some of the shots didn't budge when the hammer dropped, while others were being slightly anticipated. I think that I'm trying to do different things unconsciously, and I will eventually get more consistent with such dry fire practice.

I do admire single-action off-hand pros now more than ever. These guns are very tricky, and they are really teaching me a lot about shooting habits that a rifle would not have done.

 

[Ruger1280]

Rem.222

The cartridge is a 41 Mag case necked down to a .357 Bullet. It is a proprietary cartridge of Reeder Custom Guns out of Flagstaff Az. It is called the .356 GNR.

It seems to have a real affection for the 180 gr Hornady XTP bullets.

I really like the cartridge - I don't think I will have any problems duplicating .357 Max performance in a statdard pistol package.

I will be stretching the distances out and chronographing on future shooting sessions. So far I am really pleased.

Dave

 

[Harve Curry]

Matt304 ,
I shoot a Colt SAA 44spl. from close up to 200 yards. I agree with Old Fuff's reply #6 .

Beside your hands, I think that weight and strength of your arms can affect verticle stringing or group sizes as well.

I have to concentrate real hard on the firmness and consistency of my grip as well as the sight picture before I touch it off.

 

[Markbo]

You must separate the variables:
The Shooter
The Gun
The ammo

The shooter can be affected by many, many variables. The gun will shoot best if prepared. Darned few off the shelf Ruger's can compete with one properly tweaked by a good smith. And it doesn't take a king's ransom. Forcing cone, muzzle, cylinder timing & chamber matching and trigger can result in amazing improvements in accuracy.

Then the biggest chore - you have GOT to develop loads for the gun. A bullet weight at X velocity means nothing. You have to alter the variables to find what THAT revolver likes, not the least of which is chamber size. Rugers are notorious for having chambers that are too large or too small or not evenly matched... the latter of which can kill accuracy.

Get your gun checked out by a competent smith to get it in position to be accurate and then work on the loads. I have taken Rugers and SAA clones from 4"-6" guns to honest to goodness 1" guns this way.

 

[Matt304]

Hey Markbo,

Do you know of anyone that I could send the Ruger to, known for accurizing these things well enough?

Truthfully, I have so many projects that I couldn't afford to spend more than $150 on the thing, since I just had the barrel Magnaported. Think that's enough to do much with it?

 

[Markbo]

Jim Stroh, Clements... lots of others come to mind. My smith is Single Action Service in Houston - Alan Harton. He is on the fast track to being named up there with Bowen, Linebaugh, etc. His guns are being shown magazines now.

Call him at 713-772-8314. He will tell you a good ball park #. If you want, he will also work up an accuracy load for you and tell you all the ingredients so you can replicate it.

Be prepared though... all of these smiths have long waiting period. Just part of the deal.

 

[TargetTerror]

You don't go into too much detail about your load and your reloading technique. While everything that everyone has said so far is spot on and very relevant, your loads themselves will become a larger and larger factor as distance increases.

Do all of your cases have the same headstamp? Different manufacturers often exhibit slight, or even significant, variations in case dimensions. A little case variation doesn't matter too much under 25 yards, but can be a major factor at 50 yards. Are all of your cases uniformly trimmed? Different case lengths can cause variation in case neck tension and crimp, which can affect the consistency of the powder burn. Once again, the affect of this on accuracy will be far more pronounced at longer distances.

What powder and charge weight are you using? I don't have any experience with 45LC, but like any cartridge, certain powders will work better in different guns at different power levels with different weight bullets. Yes, that is a lot of variables and combinations. I've tended to just stick with what most people have had success with for any given bullet weight and desired velocity. My Hornady loading manual recommends H4227 and 2400 as most accurate in their test gun (a T/C). A max 2400 load gives 1250fps with a 250gr jacketed bullet, so that won't work for you desired application. H 4227 can yield 1400 fps with the same bullet. I don't know much about 4227, but if it doesn't require full-house loads, that might be a decent powder. Again, I don't have any experience with 45LC, so I'm just going by what 1 load manual says. YMMV.

What type of primer are you using? Some powders are more accurate with standard primers, like 2400. Others are more accurate with magnum primers, like H110. Or you can use the "hybrid" Winchester Large Primer and have no idea whether its suited for either! (I use these when loading for my 44, but I haven't tested to see if dedicated magnum primers will work better)

Seating depth and consistency is also important, though it is generally less critical with a high-volume case like the 45LC than with a small, high pressure case like 9mm. Since you're shooting lead, just seat the bullet so the end of the case seats fully in the crimping groove (and consistency here of course depends on having uniform case length, hence another need to trim).

For more information on loading than you know what to do with, poke around and ask some questions over at www.handloads.com. I refer you there simply because those guys have forgotten more about handloading than I will ever learn

 

[Rexster]

OK, maybe I missed in in another post here, but I didn't see anyone yet mention to make sure the trigger finger touches only the trigger, and not the frame. This is very important with all firearms, but SA sixguns seem most susceptible to being held in such a way that the trigger finger touches the lower edge of the frame as well as the trigger. I know that I can nudge the frame with my trigger finger if I don't pay attention.

 

[Bendutro]

I've never been any good with a SA larger than my Single Six.
The grips IMHO are no good for large bullets and the grip shape makes big bore rounds punishing as the gun wants to pull up and rotate with every shot. DA grips agree with me much better for > .357 loads.

 

[Markbo]

Hmmm... not my experience at all. Then again if I don't like how ANY revolver feels I either change grips or alter the grip panels. FWIW they are supposed to roll up in the hand with heavy loads in order to avoid getting your hand & wrist whacked with every shot.