Single Action Defense

[Driftwood Johnson]

Full power BP loads? Sounds cool! What is your load, exactly?

At the risk of going off topic a little bit, my 45 Colt loads are 2.2CC (about 35 grains), of FFg powder, usually Schuetzen, under a 250 grain Big Lube PRS bullet. 44-40 loads are the same powder charge under a 200 grain Big Lube Mav-Dutchman bullet. 45 Schofield loads are about 28 grains of FFg under a 200 grain J/P 45-200 bullet. 44 Russians are the light loads, only about 20 grains of FFg under the 200 grain Mav-Dutchman bullet.

These loads are all very close to what was loaded in the 19th Century, powder charges are slightly less only because modern cases have less powder capacity than the old Balloon Head cases.

A Single Action Army firing full power Black Powder 45 Colt loads is quite a handful.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

You should check them out some time, they've been around a looooooong time.

A mindless and petty attempt at either an insult or poor humor. Do try to stay high road.

If you rack the slide back with an unloaded semi-auto and pull the trigger, you're done

If you pull the trigger on an unloaded DA revolver, or cock the hammer and pull the trigger on an unloaded SA revolver, you're also equally "done"... which I take it to mean you've lost the fight.

The unloaded part being the important factor there. An unloaded firearm is particularly useless as anything other than a hammer, no matter what action type it has.

If the weapon is loaded, cocked with an empty chamber and you pull the trigger, it wont go bang and you're done.

Again, because of the empty chamber. Not because of it's action type. Any type of revolver that drops the hammer on an empty chamber also won't fire.

If the weapon is loaded and the first round fires and the second round does not, your done (without racking the slide again)

Because the immediate action drill is so hard to do? So, what you are saying is that having to complete a time consuming and trained action every single shot is better than having to complete a time consuming and trained shot maybe once in a thousand shots? That makes no sense.

...therefore, ammo dependent.

So, then your SA revolver is thumb dependent.

I think we are beyond put up or shut up time here. Make with the shot timing. I think there's a pretty good reason I've never seen a SA revolver compete in timed competitions against other types of actions or complete a multi-day defensive pistol course.

They are great and fun firearms that certainly have a purpose today, but anyone that thinks they can stand toe to toe with modern defensive firearms isn't being honest with themselves. And I'd say the same thing about most 1911s too.

 

[CraigC]

And I don't get whoever said if you don't reload you're not committed.

Has to do with volume. It is a very rare factory ammo shooter that is able to shoot the volume of ammo even your average handloader shoots.

I also don't get why it is assumed an auto shooter is the 'spray and pray' type.

And why is it these threads always portray the revolver shooter as cool, calm, fast and accurate while the semi-auto shooter is a spray and pray doofus?

Because you guys are universally obsessed with capacity and reload speed. You seemingly place little importance on proficiency.

That's why you're called the "irrational". For fighting purposes, steam power beats sail power, F-22s beat Fokker DR1s (Red Baron's triplane), Abrams beat Shermans, Garands beat '03 bolt actions, and double-actions and semi's beat single actions.

That's a BS analogy. It presumes that even if you do everything right, you can't stop a threat with a single .44 or .45 slug from a sixgun. Do you REALLY believe that a thug with a rubberband wrapped Glock has an advantage over a dedicated shooter with a SAA?

Should be easy enough to demonstrate without having to risk your life. If it's really your skill and not your equipment, go out to any IDPA or USPSA match, standard POST qualifying course, Glock match, etc, and see how well you do with your single action. If your skill is as high as you claim (handloader, 10 shots in 17 seconds, etc) then you should have no excuse for finishing at the bottom of the pack.

We're not talking about a gamer course that requires several reloads. We're talking about a real life gunfight that statistically speaking, is usually over in less than 3rds.

...anyone that thinks they can stand toe to toe with modern defensive firearms isn't being honest with themselves.

What I have to question are the qualifications and experience of the person making that statement. You guys act like we just fell off a turnip truck on our way back from 1885. I can just about guaran-friggin'-tee that we have more experience with both action types than you do and most the naysayers in threads like this. Usually all this diatribe comes from people who have spent little to no time with single actions. I've used a little bit of everything. I know exactly where I stand with each action type. You don't have a clue.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

We're not talking about a gamer course that requires several reloads. We're talking about a real life gunfight that statistically speaking, is usually over in less than 3rds.

That factoid isn't nearly as correct as people think it is: http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Farnam/NYPD.htm

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

What I have to question are the qualifications and experience of the person making that statement.

Then make with the SA times and prove to us that it can stand toe to toe with a modern defenseive pistol.

There's a very good reason whty CDP times are almost always behind SSP times and SSR times are almost always behind CDP, which in turn makes them behind SSP.

I've been teaching this shooting thing long enough to know how it goes. Go ahead, question my qualifications and experience all you want. No skin off my back. But, how about just backing it up with some numbers to show me that I'm wrong. Show us with facts that a SA revolver can stand toe to toe with a modern defensive pistol.

As I said, I've never once seen a SA revolver compete against a modern defensive pistol or complete a serious defensive pistol course. Perhaps there are some instructors out there that have. Perhaps they would like to tell us how that went.

Usually all this diatribe comes from people who have spent little to no time with single actions.

Sigh...

Have you been reading the thread?

As for the SA carry thing. I love my Blackhak. It's a wonderful gun. It's taken more animals on the ranch than all my other guns combined.

Yup.. no experience with one at all... Just one of my favorite, most carried and most successful firearms that I own...

 

[kBob]

No desire to get into the flame wars but,

To answer the original question I have not carried a Single action Revolver for self defense, however way back before some here were born when very few people COULD legally carry anything I did "glove box carry" a .45 Black hawk convertible with either .45 ACP Speer flying ashtrays or .45 Colt ( and at least one manufacturer of ammo marked their boxes Long Colt BTW) handloads of fairly hot 255 grain hard cast SWC.

One reason was it was the gun I could most afford to loose to theft. Another was that those 255 SWC seemed in a test against a junker un impressed with car glass or bodies.

I agree there are better things to carry, but if folks are comfortable with them, leave them alone.

When I shot a lot more regular I used to shoot a different gun for each of our club shoots when possible. These were man on man steel plates infront of a crowd of folks that might well heckle regulars. Once I showed up with the same revolver twice in a row, a 1917 S&W loaded with 200 grain SWC in moon clips. Our targets were four spaced 8 inch plates at 15 yards and one tie breaker type dual pepper popper.

When some one pointed out I had brought the same gun twice in a row I decided to fire all my shots single action, never had to reload and stayed in the running until I got 3rd place of 20. About as well as I did with a DA revolver or semi auto against these same guys and same class weapons.

Just anecdotal but something to think on.

Before you say steel plates are not bad guys, I have seen bad guys and they have tried to do bad things and let us leave it at that.

Now I do not carry a SA today for self defense, but that is my choice and I have no issues with anyone that does want to carry SA, even A Cap&ball revolver, if that is what they are comfortable with.

A guy with a SA is better off than 90 percent plus of his fellow citizens who are in fact not gun armed.......

-kBob

 

[45 Dragoon]

Click,
I know it was childish but I considered the source(s). And I'm sure the "water gun" remark was fine with you (I am impressed that you know the words "mindless" and "petty").

I knew that even if I "spelled it out " what I meant with the term "done" that someone would have a tough (pronounced tuff) time with it so I will just ask that you go back and read it again( remember, we are talking about actions cycling). If you don't understand then well, I apologize.

With a single action, if there's a misfire, you just do the normal action to bring the next round into battery (no change). With a double action, you just pull the trigger again (again, no change).

Finally, yes, thumb dependent! In fact, I can use either of two that I have !!!

45 Dragoon

 

[ZVP]

I hit the best with my 4 5/8" ,357 Vaquero and would not hesitate to use it! For most of my life S/A's. Have been the only revolvers that I owned. It's just a natural reflex to cock, point, and shoot one! I am just now learning D/a shooting. S/A's come in some very good calibers for self defense.
They wouldn't have hung on so long if there was't a valid use for them!
The answering YES, they are good fighting guns!
BPDave

 

[ferretray]

My money wil be on the fellow who hit's "The first, with the most".

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

They wouldn't have hung on so long if there was't a valid use for them!

Please understand that I love my single actions. But the simple fact is that after Colt stopped producing them in 1940 they had no intention whatsoever of reintroducing the Single Action Army at the end of WWII. Sales had been pitiful before the War and Colt felt there was no market for a design that was over 70 years old. The only thing that got Colt to produce the SAA again in 1956 was the fact that a young man named Bill Ruger was selling his little 22 single action revolver like hotcakes. But these sales were based pretty much solely on the nostalgia of the single action revolver, not its practicality.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Driftwood,
not to mention Hollywood and T.V. Oaters which spawned everything S.A. to date !!

 

[45_auto]

Do you REALLY believe that a thug with a rubberband wrapped Glock has an advantage over a dedicated shooter with a SAA?

Yep. Rate of fire and ammunition capacity at a minimum. Depending on the caliber, he may have an advantage in power as well. Which of those facts do you dispute?

What do you see as the advantages of the dedicated shooter with the SAA?

 

[45 Dragoon]

That's easy, placement !!!!!


45 Dragoon

 

[Hokkmike]

I use a double action but prefer shooting in single action mode. For that reason I see no compelling reason to buy a single action revolver, except cowboy shooting authenticity.... Why not have both options available?

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Click,
I know it was childish but I considered the source(s).

Ah yes, when arguing from an untenable position, attempt baseless defamation of the opposition instead of attempting to address the conversation.

Here's the deal. I don't care what you carry for self defense. That's your choice for your own personal defense. If you want to carry a rubber band gun, have at it. For intellectual honesty points though, you should at least admit to yourself though that you carry it for some reason other than it's just as effective as a modern defensive pistol for the purposes of self defense. The important thing that drives me still posting here is that you stop trying to convince other people that might not be as experienced with firearms that a SA revolver is just as good as a modern self defense pistol for personal defense. It's not. It's not even close. In all my years of work, training, competing and teaching, I have never seen a SA revolver stand toe to toe with a modern defensive pistol. And you seem extraordinarily resistant to actually putting down some numbers that could prove otherwise. One of the SA advocates here was talking about 10 shots in 17 seconds. That drill should be done in under 5 from the holster with a modern defensive pistol. I know, the retort will inevitably be about inaccurate bullet hoses, which clearly explains "Zero, Zero. Zero, Zero. Zero, Zero. Tape them up."

And please, spare us the "If the first shot is accurate" and "three shots" stuff that keeps recurring in this thread. If there ever was an instructor who teaches anyone to count on one shot or three shots to stop an attacker is an instructor that students should flee.

Defensive pistol shooting is about putting as much lead into the other guy as quickly as possible without collecting any yourself. Given equally experienced shooters, the modern defensive pistol will always put more, faster into the opponent than the SA revolver will (exempting Hi-Points and Lorcins). If you know you can put six into the bad guy with a SA revolver, you can put eight or ten into the same bad guy just as fast or faster. More hits in the same time period means better. Which means that unless you can show that a SA revolver can score the same number of hits in the same time frame, a SA revolver can't be equal to the task. Which, by extension, means that it's not an equal tool for the task.

 

[CraigC]

Yep. Rate of fire and ammunition capacity at a minimum. Depending on the caliber, he may have an advantage in power as well. Which of those facts do you dispute?

What you guys fail to understand is that we are not touting the SA as a better choice in general or for all shooters. What we are trying to say is that for the dedicated SA shooter, there is no disadvantage in the average self defense situation. You guys are trying to bring a bunch of other tangent stipulations into the discussion that really have nothing to do with this discussion. No one said anything about competing against semi-autos in formal competition or matching round for round against a fellow shooter. Yes, if Team S&W decides to go rogue and start robbing folks, the SA shooter might be in trouble if he meets them. If SEAL Team Six knocks at the door with nefarious intent, I probably want more than a sixgun. That's not what we're talking about. You guys can talk all you want about shot timers and reload speed but in the real world, it's irrelevant 99.99% of the time.

"Power", however you want to quantify that, will most likely be in favor of the revolver.

Rate of fire, apparently you guys have never learned how to run a single action fast.

Capacity is a given but you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

What do you see as the advantages of the dedicated shooter with the SAA?

The "dedicated" part.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

That's easy, placement !!!!!

Tell me, is this inherent inability of the semi-auto shooter to hit his target a function of the semi-auto pistol not being accurate, or is it rather a function of semi-auto shooters all having deficient skills?

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

What we are trying to say is that for the dedicated SA shooter, there is no disadvantage in the average self defense situation.

Yes, there is. You will not be able to put as much led on target in the same time frame as someone shooting modern defensive firearms will be able to.

Capacity is a given but you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

Ah, but of course. The semi guys are destined to miss...

 

[CraigC]

...you should at least admit to yourself though that you carry it for some reason other than it's just as effective as a modern defensive pistol for the purposes of self defense.

We've admitted it to ourselves and everybody who reads this thread. We use them because we are more proficient with them than any other platform. Again, you guys obsess about the hardware but it's the software that wins a gunfight.

The important thing that drives me still posting here is that you stop trying to convince other people that might not be as experienced with firearms that a SA revolver is just as good as a modern self defense pistol for personal defense.

No one here is doing that. Quite the contrary.

That drill should be done in under 5 from the holster with a modern defensive pistol.

Nobody ever said that a semi-auto does not have the advantage of reload speed. What we dispute is the importance. Statistically, there is ZERO reason to concern yourself with it.

If you know you can put six into the bad guy with a SA revolver, you can put eight or ten into the same bad guy just as fast or faster.

Again, you're obsessed with capacity and rate of fire. No one is suggesting that the SA is better for everyone. I am saying that the SA is capable in MY hands because I have spent more time with them than any other platform. We have to keep repeating the same thing to you guys and you still don't get it. If YOU are willing to spend as many hours with Glocks as I am with SA's, more power to you. I am not willing to spend any time at all with high capacity automatics because A) they do not interest me and B) they are not as useful for MY purposes.

 

[CraigC]

Yes, there is.

I'm sorry, have you been looking over my shoulder and watching me shoot for the last 30yrs??? Are you in a position to judge my proficiency with anything but a keyboard? No, you are not.

You will not be able to put as much led on target in the same time frame as someone shooting modern defensive firearms will be able to.

The guy that makes the first hit is going to win. Everything else is gravy. Maybe you should lay off the Die Hard marathons.

 

[ivankerley]

how about a S&W model 3 Schofield? gotta be much faster on the reloads at least
(just trying to lighten the mood a little)
Gene

 

[CraigC]

ClickClickD'oh, be honest. How much revolver shooting do you really do? In five years and 1200 posts, 10 of them are in the revolver forum. Do you have so much as a passing interesting in revolvers?

Is someone with less than a passing interest in revolvers qualified to judge the capabilities of those who have been obsessed with them for nearly 30yrs? Someone that shoots tens of thousands of rounds per year, 90% of them through single actions?

I ask because I really like to know the knowledge and experience of those who tell me I can't do something.

how about a S&W model 3 Schofield? gotta be much faster on the reloads at least

You can get `em cut for moon clips and reload them like lightning!

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

The guy that makes the first hit is going to win.

Bull droppings.

Not only bull droppings, but that you seriously say this tells me that you know absolutely zero about gun fighting and are completely unqualified to tell anybody else about gun fighting.

 

[CraigC]

Answer my questions, please.

Worthy of note that even the high estimates are of 6-8rds fired and 1-2 hits. So I'm not real sure what the "bull droppings" with regards to making the first hit is all about. I really do think some people expect to be engaged in a running gunfight and having to shoot multiple assailants seven or eight times each. It just doesn't jibe with reality.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

The sad part is that you are so against even considering that modern technology might be more capable that you don't even realize that eight shots doesn't require a reload with the vast majority of modern defensive pistols...