SKS 922 question / Appleseed rifle question (probably should have posted separately)

[yitty]

Hello,

I was wondering if I could get some help on this. 922 rules are Greek to me. I have read a lot concerning them and modifications, etc. I have a unmodified Norinco SKS. I want to add a buttpad extender to help with reach, a Tech-Sight and replace the front post site with something a little smaller. Those are all the modifications I want to do to this rifle. But I feel if I change one thing I need to change 10 in order to be compliant. But the changes I want to make do not make this a "new" assault rifle and I didnt see them on the official Fed parts list.

So the question is if I make this three changes I am compliant or not? I think I am ok but just want to make sure.

The reason for the changes is that I want to participate in a Appleseed event this summer and have read that the SKS is not very accurate, so I think these simple mods will help it without breaking the bank. My choices for Appleseed are a Marlin 336, a Remington 341 (bolt action, tube fed 22) and the aforementioned SKS. Of what I have I think the SKS may be my best bet. Although the 341 is tempting and very accurate, just not fast.

Thanks for all of your input.

 

[pseudonymity]

I am not an expert on 922 compliance, but I think that none of the parts you listed are on the 922 parts list, so I think you would be OK. I have a Norinco SKS also, I have a 1" extender for the original stock as well as a ATI Monte Carlo that I use also. I am planning on purchasing a Tech Sight for the SKS soon. If you get the Tech Sight for the SKS, you probably want to spring the extra cash for the adjustable elevation model - some Chicom SKS's have a FSB that is higher than most SKS, and you can not get the front pin low enough to get the SKS to hit at the point of hold at 25/50m with the windage only Tech Sight.

I have shot an Appleseed, and here are some thoughts. Given the choices you listed, I think the SKS is the best bet. Tube fed semis require a bit of special handling during Appleseeds (you can not load the tube until you are on the line - mag fed rifle users are setting up their slings, getting into position, etc). I would think that using a lever action in the prone position would be distracting also, and I think I would have to take a day off work after two days of working the lever in a prone position. If you use the SKS, make sure to get a few good stripper clips that feed reliably - smooth reloads during stages can really make a difference in scores if you want to shoot Rifleman. You may have to look around a bit for a 1" web sling if you do not want to sink a swivel stud into the stock of the SKS. The usual USGI web sling is 1.25", which will not fit into the front sling mount on a SKS.

Even though I really like my SKS, I would recommend that you go out and get a .22LR for at least the first day of Appleseed. For about the same price as a Appleseed Saturday of 7.62x39 you may be able to get a Marlin 795 and a cheap 4x15 scope. A 4x15 scope with low dovetail rings will give you a decent cheek weld on the Marlin stock. I used Tech Sights on my 795 for Appleseed, but I think I could have just done the 4x15 scope and saved the cash for Tech Sights for my SKS.

I will be taking my teenage son to another Appleseed this spring or summer also, and I plan on taking my Marlin 795 (Tech Sights) and a 10/22 (scoped) for the first day. I hope to shoot Rifleman so I can bring the SKS on Sunday and shoot known distance AQT. I should have the SKS tech sight installed and dialed in by then but ammo with the SKS is always a bit of a crapshoot. I do have a few boxes of Norinco yellow box FMJ ammo from when I bought the SKS before the '94 AWB, but I almost do not want to shoot it since that ammo is just crazy accurate.

 

[bigfatdave]

sights aren't an issue with 922r, I've come across an official ATF letter on the subject of sights and scope mounts
... found it, look at the bottom of this page for the letter in .pdf format
http://www.murraysguns.com/sksown.htm

I would assume that a non-permanent buttpad wouldn't be a problem either, but can't recall specific info on that

ATF rulings don't make sense, because they're all built on a platform of malum prohibitum nonsense. But it would seem that they have graciously allowed the commoners to change out sights, firing pins, worn-out parts, and add scopes ... and on top of that when have they ever effectively enforced 922r anyway?

===

And I have the TS unit on my SKS, it is a huge improvement.

 

[sixgunner455]

SKS TS200- $59.00+s&h=$65.00 (for my zip code, don't know yours)

Don't know what to tell you about the front sight post. I never worried about mine when I had an SKS, but I didn't really like the rear sight, and really thought the Tech Sight would be a blessing.

Paid ~$35.00 for the last butt pad I bought.

You will need at least 500 rounds of ammo:

Ammoman.com: free shipping
1000 rounds of "military grade" 7.62x39mm - $229.00
630 rounds Yugoslavian - $149.00
1260 rounds Yugoslavian - $279.00
1000 rounds Wolf - $235.00
1000 rounds Wolf Classic - $239.00

Graf & Sons: charge $4.95 shipping
Milsurp 7.62x39 (Yugo) - $377.16/case 1260 rounds, but they will break up a case, so you can get less of it if you don't want or can't afford the full case.
500 rounds - $152.66
Wolf fmj 500 rounds - $132.25

So: you are $100.00 in parts, minimum, and $137.00 in ammo, minimum, to do the Appleseed. Do you have any strippers? You will need a few, if you expect to have a hope of qualifying for your patch.

$240.00, minimum.

A synthetic stock, blued Ruger 10/22 is $210 from Bud's Gunshop. A bulk box of 550 Federal .22lr is $18.97 at Walmart. Mine likes Federal Automatch, though, so I pay $15.97/325 rounds.

A Marlin 795 is $153 from Buds. A Savage 64F is $145.

For the amount of money you'll spend just on the ammo for the weekend, I'd buy a mag-fed, semiauto .22, if I were you. Even if you turn around and put Techsights on both rifles later, you'll be glad for it in the ammo cost savings.

I am taking my two kids to an Appleseed in March. We currently have 2 .22lr rifles in our house, and an AR15. We could just use the rifles we already have, easily. But, for less than the cost of the 5.56 ammo I would use for the weekend, I bought another .22. It just seemed to make the most sense.

Edit to add: Your bolt-action .22 could do for it, as well, and then you'd just need to buy ammo. Only issue is that you can't load your magazine when everybody else is loading, so you'll have to prep ahead of time so you won't have to rush your loading: get a bunch of soda straws from McD's, and melt one end closed. Voila! Tube-mag speedloaders.

If you can run your bolt action, then you should be fine.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Appleseed rifle...

Yitty--A big +1 on what the above posters said re: using a centerfire rifle for an Appleseed event. It costs a bunch.

For the .22: You NEED a removable-magazine-fed rifle, and as long as you're getting one, get an autoloader. The first day of the Appleseed is all shot at ~ 20yd; thus you don't need benchrest accuracy. And as noted, tube-feed and/or lever-action rifles are a royal PITA for an Appleseed. BTDT.

One other model than has been suggested occurs to me: The Remington 597. There isn't as much retro stuff for it as for the Ruger 10/22, but they come D&T for a 'scope rail, and the stock has places to install sling swivels, if yours doesn't come with both of the above already. Thing is, they cost perhaps half of what a used 10/22 fetches, at a gun show.

Rimfire Central, www.rimfirecentral.com has discussion threads on all of these .22's, and the one on the 597 has some nice videos on troubleshooting and accurizing these.

While you're at it, get yourself several magazines for whichever rifle you decide on. It's VERY handy, @ an Appleseed, to have 'em pre-loaded.

Thoughts on the SKS while I'm at it: At the Appleseed at which I qualified, there were several shooters with SKS's and AK's. They never made it to the advanced instruction on the first day, let alone the second. Now, that may say more about the shooters than the rifles, but not a one of 'em made it. AFAIK, none of those shooters shot Rifleman. Just sayin'.

 

[bigfatdave]

For the amount of money you'll spend just on the ammo for the weekend, I'd buy a mag-fed, semiauto .22, if I were you. Even if you turn around and put Techsights on both rifles later, you'll be glad for it in the ammo cost savings.

sixgunner455, I actually agree with you, but I was trying to answer the question asked - I'm sure the OP knows that a .22lr autoloader with a box magazine is the easiest way to go, and I think everyone knows how cheap a Marlin 795 is these days. Sometimes it is easier to justify ammo than another gun, depending on how the budget is set up ... and although a .22lr gun will pay for itself rapidly, a 10/22 will need magazines, tech-sights, a sling, and some range time/ammo before being ready as a LTR, while the OP might have everything he needs in that SKS plus ammo and strippers.

I will point out that the Ruger 10/22 TS unit is a lot nicer than the Marlin TS unit, I have both (three on 10/22s and one on a Papoose) and the Ruger unit is just plain better because there was more room to fit in good stuff.

The SKS rear is on par with or a little better than the Ruger rear, and for anyone searching through, the Tech Tight front sight adjustment tool is still the only one that I have found that works with a Yugoslavian SKS - doesn't apply to the OP's Norinco, but Tech Sights has a yugo SKS front sight adjustment tool.

 

[sixgunner455]

bigfatdave - I appreciate that you agree and that you were answering the question as originally posted. You answered it, I had nothing to say about the 922r so I didn't address it. I just decided that since there was another option the OP hadn't mentioned, someone should put it out there in dollars and cents to make sure all reasonable choices were considered.

 

[mac66]

To get back to the original question. The 922r doesn't apply to the SKS because you are not converting it to a non-importable version. Second, the norinco SKS was imported before the 922r nonsense and one could make an argument that it is exempt. Third, even if it is not exempt, the import parts rules has to do with converting and selling non-compliant rifles not owning one.

In regards to Appleseed. The SKS will work but it is difficult to shoot a rifleman score with it. Tech Sights make a big difference but the transition stages are a challenge. The basic SKS sling can be used for the hasty position and I have used it as a loop sling.

 

[2ndAmFan]

If you want to be on the safe side:
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?board=12.0

 

[yitty]

First off I would like to thank everyone for their time in answering my questions. I appreciate the shared knowledge and opinions very much.

I have been reading and researching quite a lot about rifles that seem to make Appleseed's qualification section a little easier. I have thought about purchasing an additional rifle (.22 with detachable magazine + adding aftermarket sights and sling) and the costs associated with the purchase. From the previous examples it does make a certain amount of financial sense. I did however forget to mention that my SKS does have a sling. It came with it when it was purchased so I assumed all of these rifles came with one standard. So that would be a little bit if a savings. I already have plenty of ammo for Appleseed in .22 and almost enough in 7.62x39 (but its surplus Yugo corrosive just-in-case ammo). So the ammo cost alone would be significant in the SKS vs a .22. There are several good and inexpensive choices in .22 rifles that have been mentioned. I may have to go handle them to see which one feels the best to me.

I do know (or certainly hope) that after attending an Appleseed event my knowledge and skill level will improve. Whether I can get a patch or not during my first event will not diminish those two aspects of the event. (but it would be really cool to qualify at my first event ).

On another note I do believe it would be easier to explain additional ammo and parts than the wife seeing a new rifle in the house.

 

[sixgunner455]

I don't know about that. My wife, at least, understands that I shoot a lot more .22lr than everything else, and why- $, and I just enjoy shooting them. When she comes along, it's what she shoots most as well.

She didn't even really blink when I told her that instead of buying a case of 5.56 ball for my AR to shoot in Appleseed, or a dedicated upper for the same, I was buying an accurate but inexpensive .22 rifle.

 

[Kymasabe]

Having attended an appleseed shoot myself, I can offer this advice.
Of the guns you mentioned, the SKS is the only one I'd take of the three to an Appleseed shoot. Would it be my first choice? No. I'd take a 597 .22lr or a 10/22.
I took my AK's for the shoot and had a 10/22 as a back-up. First AK, (a Saiga) just wasn't up to the task, something was loose/wonky, wouldn't stay sighted. Didn't care, traded it a week later, never did fix it. Went to my second gun, Bulgarian AK with a Krebs rear peep sight. Sweet gun, great shooter, most accurate AK I've ever owned. Got very close to shooting Rifleman on the first day, just couldn't quite make it. Day two, ditched both AK's, broke out the 10/22 and shot Rifleman in my first course of fire. Save your money, shoot .22lr all day, your body and bank account will thank you.

Now, regarding SKS accuracy. I've seen guys with basic SKS's with Tech Sights shoot Rifleman. The gun is quite capable of achieving good accuracy if fed something decent and with good sights. IF you insist on using the SKS, I'd skip the cheap Russian ammo and go with the brass cased Yugo surplus stuff which I've heard is a bit more accurate than the new steel cased stuff.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Learning @ an Appleseed...

Yitty--You said

I do know (or certainly hope) that after attending an Appleseed event my knowledge and skill level will improve. Whether I can get a patch or not during my first event will not diminish those two aspects of the event. (but it would be really cool to qualify at my first event ).

If you pay attention and try to do what the instructors are explaining, you can't help but become a better shot than before. Agree the Rifleman patch is cool, but it takes some people several tries to earn it. (But what better a way to spend several weekends, shooting A LOT and hobnobbing with like-minded people??)

Good attitude, yours, that the learning is more important than the patch. (But, yeah, the patch is cool too!)

 

[henschman]

Yeah, generally you save enough by shooting rimfire versus center fire that it will pay for at least a Marlin 795, if not a 10/22, plus either a cheap scope or some tech sights. Either one will work fine. The main thing is the fundamentals that you pick up. Then once you've scored expert with the rimfire, you can bring out the center fire and do the same. The same fundamentals apply either way, so it is a lot cheaper way of doing it.

FYI you can use a tube feed at Appleseed -- the Shoot Boss should let you just load one extra round, and to simulate a mag change, you just break position and eject a round. And this is really up to Shoot Boss discretion, but what we do here in Oklahoma is to let you put rounds in your tube during the preparation period, but just not lock down the spring until the "load" command is given. It lets the tube feed guys keep up just fine.

 

[pseudonymity]

For anybody that has shot rifleman with a SKS at Appleseed - did you do that with the stock trigger pull? I have say I have spent quite a few hours with the sear and rails of my SKS getting the trigger to "not terrible" from "dragging a rusty chain through wet sand". When the force of the trigger pull is greater than the weight of the rifle you know accuracy is going to suffer.

Part of the reason that I mentioned the Marlin 795 was the fact that if you have a few hand tools and a 3.5 floppy disk laying around, you can get your trigger down to a 2-3lb pull with just a small bit of creep. The VQ sear and springs for the 10/22 is about the same, but it ran me about $35, which is another 15 mags full of ammo for my SKS.

 

[CraigC]

I shot Rifleman with a score of 242 at my first Appleseed with a 4.5lb trigger. On a 10/22, however.

 

[Usagi]

Some food for thought:

Around here, 7.62x39 ammo is running around $5 / box.
Need 500 rounds for AS = $250.


Marlin 795 = $100
sling = $10
tech sights = $75
ammo = $20
3 extra mags = $45
Total = $250

Also - you have another rifle - always a plus!


Wouldn't recommend AS with a bolt.
SKS is not a platform designed for precision shooting (though it is more accurate than an AK), nor is it designed for AQT style shooting. When playing a game, it helps to have the right equipment.

 

[CraigC]

In a shocking turn of events, I'm going to completely agree with Usagi. Not only will you come away with two rifles instead of one, I firmly believe you will learn more if you take a .22LR.

Although I am thinking about shooting a boltgun at my next one.

 

[briansmithwins]

$5 a box for 7.62x39? That's outrageous!

Order it online for roughly 1/2 that when you buy by the case.

$229 gets you 1k from ammoman.

http://www.ammoman.com/p/70/762x39-military-grade-1000

BSW

 

[CraigC]

For the cheapest ammo possible. You need to be able to shoot 4MOA from all three positions to make rifleman. The combination I used shoots MOA or better from the bench. I wouldn't expect to be able to get the patch with an SKS shooting the cheapest ammo available. A good AR shooting something like Federal XM193 would be a lot different.

 

[yitty]

Thanks for the math breakdown guys. I have been looking for a Marlin 795 locally without any luck. Gander Mtn had an advertised special for one this weekend ($119) but they were sold out. I did find a 10/22 that I liked for $225 out the door, but thats still a lot more than what I hope to find a Marlin for. There is a local gun show in about two weeks that I may try.

If anyone can point me to a place where I can find one for $100?

Thanks again.

 

[Usagi]

If anyone can point me to a place where I can find one for $100?

Dick's Sporting Goods.
Academy.
Wal Mart.




PS - thanks, briansmithwins for the link!

 

[mac66]

The 795s were big sellers in the fall when Marlin had a $25 rebate on them. I bought a couple at Dunham's Sports. I don't know if those are in your area. Dick's is another source.

I see lots of 10/22s and 795s with both scopes and tech sights. I also see many Remington 597s on the line. They can often be found w/scope for under $200. I don't own a 597 but I don't recall seeing any problems with them. Some of the other instructors have them and I've shot theirs with no problems. Kind of middle of the 10/22 or 795 ends of the spectrum.

Personally, I would buy a cheap 4x scope instead of Tech Sights for Appleseed. Being an instructor, I see most people shoot scopes as it does make it easier to zero in the rifle than with iron sights. You can buy a decent basic scope (Try a Simmons 22 mag fixed 4X) for under $50 which will save you some money. The Clearpoint scopes at Walmart work as well.

Don't discount looking in pawn shops for used 22. All of my 10/22s were pawn shop finds and all have worked well for Appleseed with little or no modification except for a scope and sling and extended mag release (which is now standard on new ones).