Small primer 45acp with problems

[ballman6711]

All the rounds fired fine, all the rounds had the accuracy that I expected from this load, but they didn't have enough "umphh" to cycle the slide enough to eject the spent round, just enough to catch the case as the slide was returning to battery. They all cocked the hammer on my 1911.

A quick update on the Fiocchi spp with my load (in the original post). I went to the range yesterday and fired 21 of these rounds. Once again all the rounds chambered fine, all went bang, and accuracy was as expected. The slide cycled enough to cock the hammer on every round fired, but about 1/3 didn't eject the brass. Temperature was about 50* F, overcast and misty, although I wouldn't call it rain but the targets were either wet or damp.

I am beginning to think it's a combination of a dirty gun (although I've run a 600 round torture test on this gun with no cleaning and no malfunctions) and a primer that just doesn't have enough brisance to light this load with authority. The fact that some of them function (2/3 yesterday) tells me that this load is right on the minimum with this primer.

I have formulated a primer test, and am in the process of getting everything ready. Then it'll be time to go to the range. I'll start a new thread with my test and results, hopefully in the next couple of weeks.

chris

 

[N555]

About 5.4 grains of 231 is my 230gr load. If I go look in my reloading manual for 185s and w231 I bet 5.4gr is barely a start load.
If you want an accurate 185gr smooth shooting round that only uses about 5gr and cycles a pistol try WST or promo.
I run about 4.4gr of wst under a 230fmj, bullets do about 700fps and groups are about half the size of any of my best full power loads, it will cycle a 1911 that's dirty from being shot all day.

 

[LiveLife]

5.4gr of W231, mixed brass, 185gr Acme swc, OAL of 1.245", Fiocchi spp

A quick update on the Fiocchi spp with my load (in the original post) ... 1/3 didn't eject the brass

Incrementally increase the powder charge until you have reliable slide cycling to produce spent case extraction and ejection

Spent case not ejecting means slide is not pushed back far enough for case rim to be kicked out by ejector. As I already posted, increase your powder charge until you have reliable slide cycling with spent case extraction/ejection.

fact that some of them function (2/3 yesterday) tells me that this load is right on the minimum with this primer.

for 185s and w231 I bet 5.4gr is barely a start load.

5.4 gr is actually below start charge for 185 gr SWC bullet. OP needs to increase powder charge. I think testing 5.5/5.6/5.7/5.8 gr should identify which charge will reliably cycle the slide and extract/eject spent cases. If wanting to monitor accuracy trend, once OP achieves reliable slide cycling with spent case extraction/ejection, .1 gr increment loads could be tested for smallest group.

BTW, lead load data from Hodgdon - https://hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=53

• 45ACP 185 gr MBC LSWC W231/HP-38 COL 1.245" Start 5.6 gr (897 fps) - Max 6.3 gr (1,001 fps)

 

[Show Me]

I bought 500 sp 45 auto brass to make my large primers last longer. Can't tell anything different at all. Use titegroup and autocomp. Not enough powder to make a difference in primer size

 

[ballman6711]

Thanks for the replies.

I developed this load (with lpp's) using Speer's online data for their 185gr TMJ swc. I was using the Speer bullet when I developed this load, but haven't been able to find them for about four years, so started using the Acme equivalent.

https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/45_Automatic_185_TMJ_SWC.pdf

I think you all are correct, I'm going to have to bump the charge up a bit if I'm going to use spp's in this gun.

chris

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Thanks for the replies.

I developed this load (with lpp's) using Speer's online data for their 185gr TMJ swc. I was using the Speer bullet when I developed this load, but haven't been able to find them for about four years, so started using the Acme equivalent.

https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/45_Automatic_185_TMJ_SWC.pdf

I think you all are correct, I'm going to have to bump the charge up a bit if I'm going to use spp's in this gun.

chris

I think this is a classic example proof of the old axiom: when changing any major component drop back to a known, good, safe load and work up to your gun’s accuracy load.

You did right starting with a good load but now it’s time to work up to a good load that works reliably and has good accuracy.

 

[fotog54]

My first guess is you and your friend have very different recoil springs in your 1911's!

 

[ballman6711]

My first guess is you and your friend have very different recoil springs in your 1911's!

I thought the same thing when they choked in my gun but worked fine in his. We shot them through his gun within minutes of shooting them in mine. If it makes a difference, my gun is a 3" Kimber 1911 and his is a Prodigy with (I think) a 4" barrel.

chris

 

[LiveLife]

I developed this load (with lpp's) using Speer's online data for their 185gr TMJ swc. I was using the Speer bullet when I developed this load, but haven't been able to find them for about four years, so started using the Acme equivalent.

Some Speer load data are light "target loads" and noted as such for bullseye match shooting. Unless you are using lighter recoil spring rate, you should reference regular pressure load data to reliably cycle the slide with factory/higher recoil spring rates (FYI, you can always reference load data for slightly heavier bullet).

NOTE: These loads are not necessarily at maximum pressure. They are held to velocities popular for target shooting.​

​

Here's 185 gr "Target/lower pressure" load data showing 5.5 gr as max charge - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/45_Automatic_185_TMJ_SWC.pdf

• 45ACP 185 gr Speer TMJ SWC W231 COL 1.275" Start 5.0 gr (669 fps) - Max 5.5 gr (752 fps)

Here's 200 gr "Regular pressure" load data showing 5.6 gr as start charge - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/45_Automatic_200_TMJ_SWC.pdf

• 45ACP 200 gr Speer TMJ SWC W231 COL 1.275" Start 5.6 gr (826 fps) - Max 6.3 gr (931 fps)

 

[ballman6711]

I think this is a classic example proof of the old axiom: when changing any major component drop back to a known, good, safe load and work up to your gun’s accuracy load.

You did right starting with a good load but now it’s time to work up to a good load that works reliably and has good accuracy.

I thought the same thing here as well, bump the load up by 0.2gr increments using the Hodgdon data and see what happens.

Also for my primer test, I was originally thinking of not cleaning or lubing the gun, but since I was able to reproduce my original results I think a good cleaning of the gun is in order, if for no other reason than to give all the primers in my planned test a fair shake.

@LiveLife Thank you for your last post. I had noticed that they held the loads to

velocities popular for target shooting.

and that their stated OAL was 1.275". I also noted that all my other references (books and online) showed higher charges for the 185gr swc.

chris

 

[Show Me]

So, maybe going from large to small is along the same line as going from mag to standard. Just enough difference to change charge.

 

[LiveLife]

So, maybe going from large to small is along the same line as going from mag to standard. Just enough difference to change charge.

AFAIK, only difference between standard and magnum primer is the primer flash size and duration with magnum primer having larger and longer duration flash to ignite more difficult to ignite powders.

 

[Blue68f100]

If I recall some of the NT ammo had smaller than normal flash holes. Small the hole the more restrictive the flash. It works like a choke reducing pressure surge. This can also have a impact on what the end results will be.

 

[murf]

my vote is to substitute a magnum, or rifle, primer and rework up the load.

luck,

murf

 

[murf]

cci 550 and cci 400 are the same primer according to the first post of this thread:

https://carolinafirearmsforum.com/index.php?threads/the-primer-on-primers.77416/

luck,

murf

 

[9mmepiphany]

I developed this load (with lpp's) using Speer's online data for their 185gr TMJ swc. I was using the Speer bullet when I developed this load, but haven't been able to find them for about four years, so started using the Acme equivalent.

If it makes a difference, my gun is a 3" Kimber 1911 and his is a Prodigy with (I think) a 4" barrel.

As you've posted more details, I think it is becoming pretty clear that whatever failures to feed you're getting are less related to the use of SPP but more to the differences in the bullets you're loading and the difference between pistol barrels/slides lengths/weight

When you're at the lower end of the loading range, switching between plated and coated will be enough to affect function.

Comparing function between different slide/barrels lengths will have even more effect...especially between a Kimber and SA. The 3" 1911 platform has a very narrow window of functionality. I would never judge a loads function in it to be representative of how that load would function in a pistol with a barrel length closer to 4.25" (the slide length with the much broader functionality window)

 

[ballman6711]

AFAIK, only difference between standard and magnum primer is the primer flash size and duration with magnum primer having larger and longer duration flash to ignite more difficult to ignite powders.

W231 being a small ball/flattened ball powder seems difficult to ignite.

If I recall some of the NT ammo had smaller than normal flash holes. Small the hole the more restrictive the flash. It works like a choke reducing pressure surge. This can also have a impact on what the end results will be.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe this brass was from NT ammo. My decap pin fits through the holes easily, but I really would need some pin gauges (or a small drill bit) to determine if the holes are smaller than my lpp brass.

my vote is to substitute a magnum, or rifle, primer and rework up the load.

luck,

murf

This is part of the plan for my future primer test. I will be testing 15 different types of primers, both small and large pistol, as well as small rifle. Also in the test will be standard, magnum, match, and AR primers.

chris

 

[ballman6711]

I could be wrong, but I don't believe this brass was from NT ammo. My decap pin fits through the holes easily, but I really would need some pin gauges (or a small drill bit) to determine if the holes are smaller than my lpp brass.

I just used a 1/16th drill bit to check the flash holes, and it fit in the Blazer and Speer spp brass with a very small amount of room to move. The Federal spp brass had larger holes.

This is an interesting development, and might require a second small primer test if I have enough brass. It's certainly something I've seen but don't think I ever noticed before.

chris

 

[hdbiker]

I don't think your primers are the issue, I think you're not generating enough recoil with that light bullet, or your limp wristing your grip on the gun

 

[ballman6711]

I don't think your primers are the issue, I think you're not generating enough recoil with that light bullet, or your limp wristing your grip on the gun

I think you're correct about not enough recoil (pressure). I'm pretty sure I'm not limp wristing the gun. I normally use a two hand grip and have shot somewhere between 10-12K rounds through it with very few problems, with the exception of when it was new. And I have diagnosed all of the problems as being either ammo (factory or my reloads) or the gun (it did have some issues when new), with most issues being my reloads. I suspect this issue will come down to my reloads being too light with these primers.

Please notice I said issues with my reloads, not the primers. I think the primers are good to go but I have only loaded about 100.

chris

 

[Show Me]

AFAIK, only difference between standard and magnum primer is the primer flash size and duration with magnum primer having larger and longer duration flash to ignite more difficult to ignite powders.

So don't drop charge if your at max and change to say the cci military primer.

 

[N555]

I don't think your primers are the issue, I think you're not generating enough recoil with that light bullet, or your limp wristing your grip on the gun

Seems likely the issues is he is using loads at or below the start load.
If I load the start load some pistols don't like it. I tried the start load for WST in 115gr 9mm, the slide wouldn't lock back, only loaded 1 mag worth because I didn't expect them to run right and after the first shot I could tell they were pretty soft.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I normally use a two hand grip and have shot somewhere between 10-12K rounds through it with very few problems, with the exception of when it was new.

How many times have you changed the recoil spring?
When was it last changed?
Which weight recoil spring are you using?

 

[ballman6711]

How many times have you changed the recoil spring?
When was it last changed?
Which weight recoil spring are you using?

I changed the recoil spring and the mainspring this year, late spring or early summer, don't remember exactly. First mainspring change, and the third recoil spring change. The Kimber 3" Ultra uses a dual spring recoil spring assembly, and the previous two (I think) times I only changed the easy (outer) spring, but this time I changed them both. The gun may have 6-8 hundred rounds since the spring change.

The recoil spring is a Wolff 16#, the only one they offer and the factory rated weight. The mainspring is 23#, again the factory rated weight. I have installed a flat bottom fps in the gun, which slows the slides rearward movement somewhat. Not sure what it's called, maybe an officers frame, but it takes the seven round magazines.

chris

 

[Boom Vang]

These reloading issues are often difficult to diganose without examining the firearm and ammunition in quesstion. Having said that... I doubt the primer or flash hole is the issue. Assuming you are using once-fired factory brass, the factory-loaded ammo worked the first time, so the SPP and brass should work for subsequent loadings.

The amount of fouling necessary to cause a 1911 to choke as you describe would be epic. Mechanically, the shorty 1911s are problematical function-wise, especially when the manufacturer starts adding things like full-length guide rods, dual recoil springs, bull barrels, etc. Colt had to make significant changes to the 1911 to create a reliable Commander. Their attempt at the Officer's Model was a failure, and they stopped making it after years of poor functioning. Perhaps there is an issue with your pistol's extractor tension or ejector.

The obvious possiblity is your powder charge was thrown short of what you think it was. You may have under-loaded that ammo. Especially if you have a heavier than standard recoil spring, coupled with an under-charged round, in a bastardized 1911-based pistol ejection may be limp.

PS. Whoever decided that SPP .45 ACP brass would be a good idea, should be tarred and feathered,