Small primer 45acp with problems

[ballman6711]

I met my buddy at the range yesterday morning for a few hours of target practice. I brought some small primer 45acp loads to try and had cycling issues. The loads were my standard loads, just with SPP instead of LPP.

The load was 5.4gr of W231, mixed brass, 185gr Acme swc, OAL of 1.245", Fiocchi spp (not magnum), temperature was in the low 40's.

All the rounds fired fine, all the rounds had the accuracy that I expected from this load, but they didn't have enough "umphh" to cycle the slide enough to eject the spent round, just enough to catch the case as the slide was returning to battery. They all cocked the hammer on my 1911. My buddy's 1911 fired and cycled fine with these loads, throwing them out about 5 feet or so. I never thought to take a picture of the jam/failure.

So for my gun, these primers may need a slightly hotter charge, or may need to be relegated to warmer temps. FWIW my load above has always worked fine in all temps down to about freezing (34 degrees) with Winchester LPP and CCI large pistol, both standard and magnum. The Fiocchi primers may work fine in my other guns, but they are a no go in this gun in colder temps.

Always test your loads in all conditions you may use them in.

chris

 

[Tall]

I've always used LPP in all my 45 ACP brass. If I accidentally pick one up at the range that has a SPP I throw that case in the trash. I normally used Bullseye but have switched to W231 since it is much cleaner. 230 GR RNL bullets.

 

[LiveLife]

small primer 45acp ... loads were my standard loads, just with SPP instead of LPP.

temperature was in the low 40's

W231/HP-38 is temperature sensitive.

I needed to increase powder charge to produce same power factor in colder winter than warm/hot summer.

Look at the difference in velocities between 56F and 79F from my 9mm PCC testing - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...n-9mm-40s-w-45acp.799231/page-4#post-10338994

• 9mm 115 gr RMR HM RN 4.8 gr W231/HP-38 @ 1.130": 1275-1263-1253-1290-1248 fps (56 F - JR carbine)
• 9mm 115 gr RMR HM RN 4.8 gr W231/HP-38 @ 1.130": 1303-1289-1298-1311-1323 fps (79 F - JR carbine)

And SP primer puts out smaller primer flash and duration than LP primer.

Incrementally increase the powder charge until you have reliable slide cycling to produce spent case extraction and ejection for "cold weather" load.

I have to do the opposite for Promo and other "reverse temperature sensitive" powders - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-7#post-10117881

• 9mm 100 gr RMR HM RN 4.5-4.7 gr Promo @ 1.050": 1478-1475-1480-1471-1467 fps (58 F - JR carbine)
• 9mm 100 gr RMR HM RN 4.5-4.7 gr Promo @ 1.050": 1458-1450-1445-1442-1448 fps (71 F - JR carbine)

 

[hdwhit]

During the component shortage of the 20-teens, I couldn't find LPP 45 ACP brass (that didn't cost a fortune), so I became the guy picking it up the SPP brass from the trash cans.

My loads came from a 1982-vintage circular that Hercules circulated with their powder (yes, I was still using 1980's vintage powder that in the 20-teens - except for some Green Dot - still looks, smells and performs as it did when Tipper Gore was complaining about STYX).

In my case, the primer has, over the decades, made no difference. Even as I entered the 21st Century and had to adopt new powders, the primer made no appreciable difference in my loads.

 

[2ndtimer]

I have loaded a few small primer .45 ACP rounds without issue, but going forward plan to use small pistol magnum primers to get a little hotter flame for the larger case.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I use SPP .45ACP cases exclusively for my 1911, SIG 220, and Glock 30 without issues.

Granted I'm not loading with W231 or 185gr Acme bullets, but I've had very good luck pushing 200gr SWC with N310, WST, or Clays to ~850fps. I'm using Ginex SPP in Blazer brass

 

[ballman6711]

I have loaded spp with this load in the past, and all shot and cycled fine, but they were CCI primers AND the weather was warmer. I may have to load a few up and do some cool/cold weather testing this winter to see what works and what doesn't.

I'll start a new thread with my results once I have my testing done, but that may take a while, maybe a month or two.

chris

 

[JHTexas]

Here is a small article on the subject from Handloader magazine.
They suggested when going from LPP to the SPP cases using .2gr more of powder to maintain the original velocity.

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/bullets-brass-33

 

[Kaldor]

If your 1911 will light them off, I suggest using SRPs. They do produce a hotter flame than a SPP, probably very similar to a small pistol magnum. We tested and loaded large pistol vs small rifle in 45 ACP with Acme 185 SWCs and CFE-P and found no issues. Velocity and accuracy were pretty much identical. It was a great way to burn up a 1000 small primered cases for a friend that doesn't reload and doesn't generally pick up his brass.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Sorry for your troubles

I only shoot indoors and have plenty of small primer 45acp cases, so send those Fiocchis my way and I’ll test em.

But other than the primers, I do/have shot the same load you used but indoors.

Edit: that’s brand of primers not size. Have used plenty of sp in 45acp

 

[ballman6711]

If your 1911 will light them off, I suggest using SRPs.

Hadn't thought of srp's, but I have enough of those to last me quite awhile. I have over six pounds of W231 and would run out of powder long before I would run out of srp's.

I'll give them a try and update with my results. Thanks.

chris

 

[Blue68f100]

I've used both LP & SP primers in 45acp. What I found was the SP primers gave a slightly lower velocity (-20-25 fps) when compared to a LP with the same load. I mainly only use LP primers and save the SP for when I will loose my brass or by chance I run out of LP primers.

 

[Kaldor]

Hadn't thought of srp's, but I have enough of those to last me quite awhile. I have over six pounds of W231 and would run out of powder long before I would run out of srp's.

I'll give them a try and update with my results. Thanks.

chris

Load 10 and test. I'm using CCI 400s. My 1911 has a plenty heavy hammer spring, so I had no issues and neither did my buddy with his M&P 45.

I've used SRPs in 9mm as well, none of my firearms had an issue. Because of this when things finally get back to as normal as they are going to be with supply, I'll be switching all my 9mm loads to SRPs as it's one less thing I have to track. Right now it's kinda get what you can get and be happy.

 

[AK Hunter]

What lube are you using on your 1911. Some lubes gum up when cold more than others that will slow your slide down.

 

[Shovel]

I use SPP .45ACP cases exclusively for my 1911, SIG 220, and Glock 30 without issues.

Granted I'm not loading with W231 or 185gr Acme bullets, but I've had very good luck pushing 200gr SWC with N310, WST, or Clays to ~850fps. I'm using Ginex SPP in Blazer brass

Clays in 45ACP.... My steel plate go-to is 3.6gr behind a 200gr SWC cast lead bullet. Win LP primer. Runs right at 840 FPS through a 5" barrel with minimal recoil. Accurate, and really cheap to load (around $60/1000 using my old stock components).

 

[10mm Fan]

I met my buddy at the range yesterday morning for a few hours of target practice. I brought some small primer 45acp loads to try and had cycling issues. The loads were my standard loads, just with SPP instead of LPP.

The load was 5.4gr of W231, mixed brass, 185gr Acme swc, OAL of 1.245", Fiocchi spp (not magnum), temperature was in the low 40's.

All the rounds fired fine, all the rounds had the accuracy that I expected from this load, but they didn't have enough "umphh" to cycle the slide enough to eject the spent round, just enough to catch the case as the slide was returning to battery. They all cocked the hammer on my 1911. My buddy's 1911 fired and cycled fine with these loads, throwing them out about 5 feet or so. I never thought to take a picture of the jam/failure.

So for my gun, these primers may need a slightly hotter charge, or may need to be relegated to warmer temps. FWIW my load above has always worked fine in all temps down to about freezing (34 degrees) with Winchester LPP and CCI large pistol, both standard and magnum. The Fiocchi primers may work fine in my other guns, but they are a no go in this gun in colder temps.

Always test your loads in all conditions you may use them in.

chris

Sounds like your powder is burning slower than it should, given the smaller "spark" from the smaller primer. Slower burn means less pressure backwards on the slide.

I reload all my ammo and I am always finding SPP .45 brass at the city range. Not a lot - maybe 1% of what I pick up. I just toss it out.

 

[ballman6711]

What lube are you using on your 1911. Some lubes gum up when cold more than others that will slow your slide down.

Royal Purple 5w-20 or 0w20. It's what I use when I change oil in my truck, and there's always a bit left in the bottles, so I just put it in a tiny bottle with a needle applicator. It's new oil, not used, in case any one is wondering.

chris

 

[Kaldor]

Royal Purple 5w-20 or 0w20. It's what I use when I change oil in my truck, and there's always a bit left in the bottles, so I just put it in a tiny bottle with a needle applicator. It's new oil, not used, in case any one is wondering.

chris

I do the same except I use Mobil 1 5w30. I use Aeroshell 33 MS for a light grease, just a dab will do ya from a Q-tip. Zero issues with that combo here in WI where guns get used at zero and below on a regular basis.

If it turns/rotates, oil it. If it slides, grease it. Ive been using that motto on my firearms for a long time now, never had an issue. The upside of grease is that while maybe a hair more messy, it definitely stays in place better than oil.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I have loaded spp with this load in the past, and all shot and cycled fine, but they were CCI primers AND the weather was warmer.

W231 is temperature sensitive, but I've never had a load not function in a 1911...and I usually load 231 in the 4.5gr range

 

[lordpaxman]

My testing of SP vs LP in .45 didn’t show any statistically significant difference in velocity. I’ll be interested in:

I'll start a new thread with my results once I have my testing done, but that may take a while, maybe a month or two.

 

[kidneyboy]

temperature was in the low 40's.

I'm guessing this was more of an issue than the primers. Temp sensitive 231 and just enough cold to slow the gun down a little.

 

[kerreckt]

My experience is that spp or lpp makes no difference with 45acp. I have tested them with different brands of primers and still no difference. As far as powder sensitivity, I can't help you. Best wishes!

 

[ballman6711]

I'm guessing this was more of an issue than the primers. Temp sensitive 231 and just enough cold to slow the gun down a little.

I'm thinking similar thoughts. My LPP loads worked fine, it was just the SPP loads that had problems. Everything was the same except the primers. The pistol may need a good cleaning as well, although it's probably only had about 300 rounds through it since the last disassembly and cleaning.

I try to lube the gun before every range session.

chris

 

[Show Me]

I do the same except I use Mobil 1 5w30. I use Aeroshell 33 MS for a light grease, just a dab will do ya from a Q-tip. Zero issues with that combo here in WI where guns get used at zero and below on a regular basis.

If it turns/rotates, oil it. If it slides, grease it. Ive been using that motto on my firearms for a long time now, never had an issue. The upside of grease is that while maybe a hair more messy, it definitely stays in place better than oil.

Ha,Shell 5 40 t6

 

[Show Me]

Small primer brass is to use the stockpile of small S&B primers I bought at 27.00 per 1000. Saving the not so stocked up large for 44mag and 45 colt. Autocomp from the 40 S&W days sparks off short slides and long slides. No controversy to be seen here