Smallest Elephant Cartridge
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Killzone,
No the brain does not have to be hit to kill an elephant. They will die just like any other mammal with a heart lung shot. It just takes a while and of course the body shot is not useful in stopping a charge.
If one can break a leg bone on an elephant that anchors them. An elephant can not walk on three legs.
As far as the .50 BMG yes it kills elephants very efficiently HOWEVER they are a bit cumbersome to carry in the field and they lack entirely on handling qualities. They are meant to be fired prone.
It is pretty tough to swing a shoulder fired .50 into action at close range and snap shoot a charging elephant. And during a fast action shooting situation you really don’t have time to deploy a bipod lay down and shoot. Of course it is fun to talk about but they are entirely useless as a big game sporting weapon.
They would be a very useful culling tool one could set up on a high ridge and slaughter ole tembo by the thousands if one needed to I guess. But that isn’t hunting it’s culling a totally different operation.
Of course with some of the attitudes I see on this web sight towards sport hunting of elephants you are going to see more and more culling as the population of elephants continues to out strip and out pace the available range in modern Africa.
Either we as sport hunter do it or the culling teams and mother nature will.
No the brain does not have to be hit to kill an elephant. They will die just like any other mammal with a heart lung shot. It just takes a while and of course the body shot is not useful in stopping a charge.
If one can break a leg bone on an elephant that anchors them. An elephant can not walk on three legs.
As far as the .50 BMG yes it kills elephants very efficiently HOWEVER they are a bit cumbersome to carry in the field and they lack entirely on handling qualities. They are meant to be fired prone.
It is pretty tough to swing a shoulder fired .50 into action at close range and snap shoot a charging elephant. And during a fast action shooting situation you really don’t have time to deploy a bipod lay down and shoot. Of course it is fun to talk about but they are entirely useless as a big game sporting weapon.
They would be a very useful culling tool one could set up on a high ridge and slaughter ole tembo by the thousands if one needed to I guess. But that isn’t hunting it’s culling a totally different operation.
Of course with some of the attitudes I see on this web sight towards sport hunting of elephants you are going to see more and more culling as the population of elephants continues to out strip and out pace the available range in modern Africa.
Either we as sport hunter do it or the culling teams and mother nature will.
Anthony T.
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I did'nt take the time to read this but I think .375 is the minimum for african D game. I'd personally use a 375 holland or 416 rigby. Maybe find one of those 700 nitros in a double barrel elephant rifle. Poor shouder.
MCgunner
Member
Umm, I'll stay here and hunt feeders for deer. I can almost afford that... Well, I can afford it depending on the price of gas that week. 
I've read that the various 7 mags were popular for antelope over there. Not dangerous game, of course, but goes along with the "African battery" thing.
I guess a Barrett would work. A might slow to the shoulder, considering the weight, but I don't think I'd wanna shoot a .50 BMG in a 6 lb gun.
Umm, like I said, I'll keep hunting my feeder. It's easier on clothing, not so many brown stains for the wife to get out. I'll continue to stalk the killer hog for dangerous thrills, or race fast motorcycles. Don't need to become goo between some elephant's toes.
Well, I can afford it depending on the price of gas that week. I've read that the various 7 mags were popular for antelope over there. Not dangerous game, of course, but goes along with the "African battery" thing. I guess a Barrett would work. A might slow to the shoulder, considering the weight, but I don't think I'd wanna shoot a .50 BMG in a 6 lb gun.
Umm, like I said, I'll keep hunting my feeder. It's easier on clothing, not so many brown stains for the wife to get out. I'll continue to stalk the killer hog for dangerous thrills, or race fast motorcycles. Don't need to become goo between some elephant's toes.
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Bell also used a .256 Rigby on occasion.
But I believe that John Pondoro taylor described Mr. Bell's small bore antics best when described Mr Bell as being extremely lucky to have survived.
The other thing no one likes to remember about Walter Bell was that he recomended and used a .416 Rigby for hunting elephant in thick cover or for following up a wounded elephant.
And of course he must have bee a phenominal shot to have pulled off what he did.
But I believe that John Pondoro taylor described Mr. Bell's small bore antics best when described Mr Bell as being extremely lucky to have survived.
The other thing no one likes to remember about Walter Bell was that he recomended and used a .416 Rigby for hunting elephant in thick cover or for following up a wounded elephant.
And of course he must have bee a phenominal shot to have pulled off what he did.
HankB
Member
John "Pondoro" Taylor said something of the sort in his writings, but I'm not aware of anyone - even Taylor - who put numbers into such a refined model. What's the source of this "rule of thumb" and what sort of methodology was used? Enquiring minds want to know, since it would take shooting a heck of a lot of elephants and doing a heck of a lot of autopsies, and tabulating the results, to come up with actual numbers.
(In the "Africa's Black Death" video, controversial PH Mark Sullivan shoots a number of Cape buff with a .500 . . . it was effective, true, but it wasn't exactly like smiting the critters with the hammer of Thor.)
BTW, there ARE some "taboo" animals . . . one example I know of is in the Mwanya portion of Zambia's Luangwa Valley, right around Yakobi, where the natives won't eat hippo . . . and they don't even want to skin a hyena in the same area they skin "eating" animals like bushbuck and impala.
In large parts of North Africa they won't have anything to do with warthogs - religious grounds, obviously. (High Moslem populations.)
steveracer
Member
Didn't Kieth take the Big Six with a .357 Mag?
Pretty sure about that one.
But .375 is more realistic.
Pretty sure about that one.
But .375 is more realistic.
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Hank,
No scientific data. There never has been a true scientific study on this subject so how would you expect ME to present you with a double blind study on it?
This is not a "refined" number in anyway shape or form. I never claimed it to be. It is rather based on multiple opinions from some of the most experienced elephant hunters alive today. Buzz Chilton and Johan Colitz to name a few. The 6 to 8" number is an estimation. Anytime you are dealing with bullet and caliber performance on live game there is a great deal of variability. So we must speak in generalities thus the reference to a "rule of thumb" otherwise known as an educated guess. an estimation or a SWAG. There is nobody alive that can say with definitive proof that a such and such caliber when missing the brain by 6” or *” will always or will never knock the elephant down. I am a bit surprised that it was taken as such. It is a known fact However that a larger caliber will generally give you a wider area of knock down than a smaller one on a head shot on elephant.
If you are interested in this subject I would once again recommend that you buy Buzz Chilton’s video on elephant hunting available at www.cmsfaris.com.
As far as your reference to Mark (snuff flick) Sullivan and his .500 sequences on buffalo. You are talking about an entirely different subject. Body shooting buffalo is not the same thing as head shooting elephant.
We are talking about shock effect on an elephants brain. Which of course an experienced hunter like you knows is an entirely different subject.
I can tell you this however. I've witnessed consecutive kills on buffalo with .470, 458Lott and a .500 Jefferys. There is a major difference in observed effect with the .500.
As far as taboo animals go of course there are some taboo animals with different tribes, that was my point. There are thousands of tribes with thousands of legends, lore’s and taboos, which one was Mr. Spy refering to? There are also tribes that will eat anything and everything so who exactly who was Mr. spy refering? Also in what manner was he refering to only "canned" hunts feeding people. That may have been one of the most ridiculous statements I've yet seen on this sight. But Mr. Spy never fails to amaze me with some of the stuff he come up with. yet he is free to post just as I am free to question it
Hank, it all boils down to personal experience and to use what works for you. As we've discussed in the past I don't think your choice of a push feed .375H&H with a fixed 6 power scope is a wise choice for hunting dangerous game. But it works for you so my opinion on the subject doesn't really matter to you. Anybody is free to take my opinion and use it or discard it as they'd like. It doesn't affect me either way. But I will continue to write about one of my true passions in life and that is big game hunting with heavy rifles. For what it's worth you can either read it or choose to ignore it. That is the beauty of a public web sight.
Sometimes when I write on this sight I feel that if I don’t over explain every little detail it will come back to me. This is proving true more and more often. For some of you I’ve become a target. One thing I can promise you is that some of you will not agree with me, some of you will, some of you will be insulted by me because I don’t pull my punches and I will never censure my writing with political correctness. Please rest assured however, that it is not my intent to ever give bad information and I always try to back up my information with facts. And I will defend what I know to be true and what I know to be right.
You will not receive a reply from until after Monday the 21st as I am off to Texas to shoot hogs with a heavy caliber rifles.
God bless America
And use whatever you want when hunting elephants. But please try and enjoy yourself, life is short and good health fleeting.
Greg
No scientific data. There never has been a true scientific study on this subject so how would you expect ME to present you with a double blind study on it?
This is not a "refined" number in anyway shape or form. I never claimed it to be. It is rather based on multiple opinions from some of the most experienced elephant hunters alive today. Buzz Chilton and Johan Colitz to name a few. The 6 to 8" number is an estimation. Anytime you are dealing with bullet and caliber performance on live game there is a great deal of variability. So we must speak in generalities thus the reference to a "rule of thumb" otherwise known as an educated guess. an estimation or a SWAG. There is nobody alive that can say with definitive proof that a such and such caliber when missing the brain by 6” or *” will always or will never knock the elephant down. I am a bit surprised that it was taken as such. It is a known fact However that a larger caliber will generally give you a wider area of knock down than a smaller one on a head shot on elephant.
If you are interested in this subject I would once again recommend that you buy Buzz Chilton’s video on elephant hunting available at www.cmsfaris.com.
As far as your reference to Mark (snuff flick) Sullivan and his .500 sequences on buffalo. You are talking about an entirely different subject. Body shooting buffalo is not the same thing as head shooting elephant.
We are talking about shock effect on an elephants brain. Which of course an experienced hunter like you knows is an entirely different subject.
I can tell you this however. I've witnessed consecutive kills on buffalo with .470, 458Lott and a .500 Jefferys. There is a major difference in observed effect with the .500.
As far as taboo animals go of course there are some taboo animals with different tribes, that was my point. There are thousands of tribes with thousands of legends, lore’s and taboos, which one was Mr. Spy refering to? There are also tribes that will eat anything and everything so who exactly who was Mr. spy refering? Also in what manner was he refering to only "canned" hunts feeding people. That may have been one of the most ridiculous statements I've yet seen on this sight. But Mr. Spy never fails to amaze me with some of the stuff he come up with. yet he is free to post just as I am free to question it
Hank, it all boils down to personal experience and to use what works for you. As we've discussed in the past I don't think your choice of a push feed .375H&H with a fixed 6 power scope is a wise choice for hunting dangerous game. But it works for you so my opinion on the subject doesn't really matter to you. Anybody is free to take my opinion and use it or discard it as they'd like. It doesn't affect me either way. But I will continue to write about one of my true passions in life and that is big game hunting with heavy rifles. For what it's worth you can either read it or choose to ignore it. That is the beauty of a public web sight.
Sometimes when I write on this sight I feel that if I don’t over explain every little detail it will come back to me. This is proving true more and more often. For some of you I’ve become a target. One thing I can promise you is that some of you will not agree with me, some of you will, some of you will be insulted by me because I don’t pull my punches and I will never censure my writing with political correctness. Please rest assured however, that it is not my intent to ever give bad information and I always try to back up my information with facts. And I will defend what I know to be true and what I know to be right.
You will not receive a reply from until after Monday the 21st as I am off to Texas to shoot hogs with a heavy caliber rifles.
God bless America
And use whatever you want when hunting elephants. But please try and enjoy yourself, life is short and good health fleeting.
Greg
HankB
Member
H&H, chill . . .
When I see someone quote specific numbers (like 6" - 8" from the brain to down an elephant) I just figure that there's some reason things were quantified - IIRC, Pondoro just said words to the effect that "a near miss" of the brain from a large caliber would knock out an elephant for a while whereas the same shot placement with a lesser caliber wouldn't. Taylor didn't define "near" so it could have meant 1 inch or 1 foot. If someone with Taylor's experience didn't quantify it, I was wondering about the background and basis of the person(s) who had.
Never having taken a jumbo myself, I'm in no position to debate from my own experience what will and what won't "knock out" an elephant - but I'm always interested in learning from those who do have extensive experience. And many of them don't seem to write much, if at all, about "knock out" with a near miss to the brain. That's why the figure you referenced piqued my interest - I hoped it might be based on something more than " . . . an educated guess. an estimation or a SWAG . . ."
Note that I allowed as Mark Sullivan was "controversial" . . . I suspect that over a couple of beers we'd find much to agree on regarding him . . . and I've seen buff downed by the "little" .375 that crumpled just as definitively - if not more so - than most of those in Sullivan's flick. Body shot on buff isn't the same as a head shot on elephant, but it's the kind of thing that makes you go "Hmmm . . . " (BTW, though I very much love the .375, I hope you don't think I'm implying the .375 hits like a .500, or even a .470 or .458 - it clearly doesn't. Caliber is important, but IMHO above some threshold, which will certainly vary from one animal species to the next, bullet placement means a whole lot more than caliber.)
And when you asked Double about "taboo" animals, I thought it was a genuine inquiry, so I weighed in with what I knew in that regard . . . And yes, with very few exceptions all protein is consumed, the animals taken either serving as camp meat or shared out with the locals, as I've seen first hand. Little or no waste.
As far as Double's other points were concerned, other than some scandalous "canned" lion hunts in RSA several years ago with old circus lions (and rumors of the same in Namibia,) I'm unaware of any "canned" hunts in Africa.
H&H, I think we agree on many things, and will continue to disagree on a few others, but we've been able to keep things civil . . . enjoy your hunt in Texas (thanks for spending money in my state! ) and be sure to post pictures when you get home.
When I see someone quote specific numbers (like 6" - 8" from the brain to down an elephant) I just figure that there's some reason things were quantified - IIRC, Pondoro just said words to the effect that "a near miss" of the brain from a large caliber would knock out an elephant for a while whereas the same shot placement with a lesser caliber wouldn't. Taylor didn't define "near" so it could have meant 1 inch or 1 foot. If someone with Taylor's experience didn't quantify it, I was wondering about the background and basis of the person(s) who had.
Never having taken a jumbo myself, I'm in no position to debate from my own experience what will and what won't "knock out" an elephant - but I'm always interested in learning from those who do have extensive experience. And many of them don't seem to write much, if at all, about "knock out" with a near miss to the brain. That's why the figure you referenced piqued my interest - I hoped it might be based on something more than " . . . an educated guess. an estimation or a SWAG . . ."
Note that I allowed as Mark Sullivan was "controversial" . . . I suspect that over a couple of beers we'd find much to agree on regarding him . . . and I've seen buff downed by the "little" .375 that crumpled just as definitively - if not more so - than most of those in Sullivan's flick. Body shot on buff isn't the same as a head shot on elephant, but it's the kind of thing that makes you go "Hmmm . . . " (BTW, though I very much love the .375, I hope you don't think I'm implying the .375 hits like a .500, or even a .470 or .458 - it clearly doesn't. Caliber is important, but IMHO above some threshold, which will certainly vary from one animal species to the next, bullet placement means a whole lot more than caliber.)
And when you asked Double about "taboo" animals, I thought it was a genuine inquiry, so I weighed in with what I knew in that regard . . . And yes, with very few exceptions all protein is consumed, the animals taken either serving as camp meat or shared out with the locals, as I've seen first hand. Little or no waste.
As far as Double's other points were concerned, other than some scandalous "canned" lion hunts in RSA several years ago with old circus lions (and rumors of the same in Namibia,) I'm unaware of any "canned" hunts in Africa.
H&H, I think we agree on many things, and will continue to disagree on a few others, but we've been able to keep things civil . . . enjoy your hunt in Texas (thanks for spending money in my state!
) and be sure to post pictures when you get home.p35
Member
Peter Capstick, in one of his books, told the story of a couple jokers who killed two elephant with a .22 LR just behind a front leg where it reached the arteries near the heart. Back around 1900 IIRC. The first was more or less an accident while trying to scare it off, the second was with witnesses to prove they weren't lying about the first. Not a great idea, but apparently it has happened.
In one of capstics books "last ivory hunter story of Wally Johnson" he said that Wally didn’t believe in the head shot he only used hart shots on elephants and he started his career using a 30-06 and a .318 Rigby ( very similar to a 06' with 250gr solids). its all about sectional density!
he also said that the 318's chamber was so corroded that he had to fill the pits with fingernail polish so the brass didn’t expand into the pits and cause a failure to extract, this trick only worked three shots at a time, that was back in WWII and guns that you could find ammo for were rare
he also said that the 318's chamber was so corroded that he had to fill the pits with fingernail polish so the brass didn’t expand into the pits and cause a failure to extract, this trick only worked three shots at a time, that was back in WWII and guns that you could find ammo for were rare
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P35,
Yes I actually heard of this on several occasions. There is a major artery that runs behind the front leg low on the shoulder. When the animal's leg is in forward stride the vessel is fully exposed and about the size of a large garden hose. I've HEARD that a well placed .22 round through that vessel will bleed an elephant out in a short time.
I've also read of a not to distant situation where a hunter killed a bull elephant with a knife. He had knocked the elephant out with a near brain miss and then had his gun go out of service. So he climbed up on the jumbos back and cut the major artery behind the bulls ear with his hunting knife. The elephant bleed out before he regained consciousness.
Of course both of these stories are just that, stories and have no proof positive back up. But they do sound good around the camp fire.
Claywt,
Johon "Pondoro" Taylor writes a very graphic description of the remains retrieval of the bodies of two inexperienced hunters who tried to press a .318 into service in tight cover on a bull elephant.
He also goes onto describe what he thought about Bell and his 7X57 Mauser in word he considered Bell to have been "lucky".
All of this small bore shooting on elephant are fascinating but to pull it off everything must be perfect and the shooter must be very knowledgeable about shot placement and elephant behavior so as to know when to back off and when to pursue. these pip squeak rounds leave absolutely no room for error.
kjack
Member
Filmed Kill
~45 years ago, The American Sportsman (as I recall - I'm talking ancient history here) filmed Robert Stack on safari. (This was well before the politically correct days and this was a regular Sunday afternoon broadcast.) Mr. Stack was a US champion skeet shooter in his younger days.
It seems as though a large elephant was not impressed with Mr Stack's entertainment career and charged. The cameraman was slightly behind Mr. Stack's right shoulder. Bob put a .458 between the elephant's eyes at 20 yards or so. The shot was apparently a no-kidding brain shot, because the elephant seemed to go back on his rear haunches rather abruptly. Not "knckdown", but extremely fast reaction to a shot! A very fast working of the bolt and the second shot went in about 2 inches from the first (shown in closeup on the deceased critter).
The camera angle shrank the depth perception, but it looked like a real close-in encounter. I'm sure the sound man had to tone down the clanking of the brass balls on both the shooter and the cameraman!
I'd love to see that sequence again - mostly to prove to myself that my memory isn't as bad as my kids say it is!
~45 years ago, The American Sportsman (as I recall - I'm talking ancient history here) filmed Robert Stack on safari. (This was well before the politically correct days and this was a regular Sunday afternoon broadcast.) Mr. Stack was a US champion skeet shooter in his younger days.
It seems as though a large elephant was not impressed with Mr Stack's entertainment career and charged. The cameraman was slightly behind Mr. Stack's right shoulder. Bob put a .458 between the elephant's eyes at 20 yards or so. The shot was apparently a no-kidding brain shot, because the elephant seemed to go back on his rear haunches rather abruptly. Not "knckdown", but extremely fast reaction to a shot! A very fast working of the bolt and the second shot went in about 2 inches from the first (shown in closeup on the deceased critter).
The camera angle shrank the depth perception, but it looked like a real close-in encounter. I'm sure the sound man had to tone down the clanking of the brass balls on both the shooter and the cameraman!
I'd love to see that sequence again - mostly to prove to myself that my memory isn't as bad as my kids say it is!
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Kjack,
That is indeed a reaction to a true brain shot rather than a near miss. A brain shot elephant will invariably react in the following manner: Hind quarters collapse, trunk flies into the air, head pitches back animal collapses, hind leg will go straight out and tremor.
Also there will be massive amounts of blood coming from the ear drums which burst in a brain shot and a copious blood slick will emit from the trunk.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
The thing about pipsqueak cartridges on large critters is that, yeah, they'll kill--but they won't stop the animal from leaving the scene of the crime or stop a charge.
In Bell's day, I've read, elephants were not as likely to run from men, herds apparently were larger and were easier to sneak up on. (Dunno; even I'm not old enough to have been there.) And, Bell is said to have usually shot from the side and would exit rearward and wait for the elephant to finally die. He wasn't into the, "See me stop this charging elephant!" deal.
The whole enchilada for minima for dangerous game cartridges is to be able to deal with a worst-case scenario.
FWIW, H&H, I don't recall anything you've ever said about hunting that jangled my Huh? nerve...
, Art
In Bell's day, I've read, elephants were not as likely to run from men, herds apparently were larger and were easier to sneak up on. (Dunno; even I'm not old enough to have been there.) And, Bell is said to have usually shot from the side and would exit rearward and wait for the elephant to finally die. He wasn't into the, "See me stop this charging elephant!" deal.
The whole enchilada for minima for dangerous game cartridges is to be able to deal with a worst-case scenario.
FWIW, H&H, I don't recall anything you've ever said about hunting that jangled my Huh? nerve...
, Art- Status
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