MidwestRookie
Member
well it was started by someone who still only has 1 post..fate, I guess..
Smith & Wesson Sigma Series Trigger FIX!!! (SW9VE, SW40VE)
- Thread starter JBHaire52
- Start date
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Vettewine
Member
Smith & Wesson Sigma 9
Geez, you guys are tough on newbies...! I've been watching (not posting to) this forum for quite some time, now, and find lots of interesting info posted to it. However, I must put in my 2-cents worth on the Sigma. I have been shooting and reloading for over 35 years and own many rifles, revolvers, shotguns and semi-autos. I purchased a SW9VE last year and it shot reliably and accurately right out of the box. But I can't leave anything alone so I proceeded to rework the trigger mechanism, smoothing contact surfaces and replacing a couple of springs. Yes, I removed the pigtail spring and it makes no difference in the operation of the gun other than to eliminate unnecessary wear on the "plastic" housing.
You can spend more and get a lot less for your money than with a S & W Sigma...!
Geez, you guys are tough on newbies...! I've been watching (not posting to) this forum for quite some time, now, and find lots of interesting info posted to it. However, I must put in my 2-cents worth on the Sigma. I have been shooting and reloading for over 35 years and own many rifles, revolvers, shotguns and semi-autos. I purchased a SW9VE last year and it shot reliably and accurately right out of the box. But I can't leave anything alone so I proceeded to rework the trigger mechanism, smoothing contact surfaces and replacing a couple of springs. Yes, I removed the pigtail spring and it makes no difference in the operation of the gun other than to eliminate unnecessary wear on the "plastic" housing.
You can spend more and get a lot less for your money than with a S & W Sigma...!
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ET
Member
Just because they are new posters doesn't mean that they are lying. Not all the posts on this thread are from the newbies. If you don't want to believe that the Sigma is a good gun for the money that is your right. I happen to know that my Sigma is a good reliable gun that can be purchased for under $300. The trigger isn't that bad and can be worked on if it isn't what the owner wants.
I think that people who have a problem with the trigger do not know how to control their gun. Its not a comp gun, its for self defence. The stiff trigger on a SD gun is fine. I can shoot it well. One just has to control the finger pull, with a bit of practice its not a problem. For the cost 250 with three mags for my new SS gun is cheap. And compared to my Glock 19 the grip is much better. I like my Glock but the Sigma is fast becoming a fav. Just like I love my Walthers, PP, PPK PPKS. but I have a Bersa that feels better in my hand, and has never had a problem, and for 179 how can you beat the price. I think people who are band loyal will over look any neg. to show how much they love a logo.
I just did the pig tail and sear replacment spring fix. I polished the sear with car bugging grit and a dremmel and it made the trigger about 70% better. It took about 15min from start to finish. This video helped.
The great thing is that I kept the parts and if it has to go back to Smith I can just put in the old springs in 10 min and ready to go. http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_28440&v=iesiGtC8y1g&feature=iv
The great thing is that I kept the parts and if it has to go back to Smith I can just put in the old springs in 10 min and ready to go. http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_28440&v=iesiGtC8y1g&feature=iv
Vettewine
Member
Sigma bashers...
I'm starting to think there are a few posters on this forum that are only interested in bashing the Sigma. I think it rude of them to do so as I don't sign on to another forum just to bash the type of gun they're discussing. Almost all types and brands of pistols have issues or problems and finding great solutions to them is what most of us on these forums are about and not just to spout off about one gun over another...
I'm starting to think there are a few posters on this forum that are only interested in bashing the Sigma. I think it rude of them to do so as I don't sign on to another forum just to bash the type of gun they're discussing. Almost all types and brands of pistols have issues or problems and finding great solutions to them is what most of us on these forums are about and not just to spout off about one gun over another...
HspncElvis
Member
Mags, who cares when the thread started? Fact is, some are seeing it for the first time. And by the way, my SW9VE is a fine handgun. 1150 rounds and still going strong. And get this. Accurate and reliable!!
Vettewine
Member
Amen, Brother...!
Amen to that, HspncElvis. I'll put my Sigma up against any others in the same price range... and it's US-made...!
Amen to that, HspncElvis. I'll put my Sigma up against any others in the same price range... and it's US-made...!
HspncElvis
Member
Vettewine, I agree with you. Some bash the sigma, some love it. Those who bash it I ask why? If it's not for you, ok! If you can't figure out the Sigma, ok! Those of us who have figured out the Sigma shoot with accuracy. If I don't like another make or model, I'm not going to bash it. I'm thinking it's not for me. Might be ok for others. 
Whiners!!
Whiners!!
theoldgoat
Member
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5
I would agree with this post, and yes I am a new-be and this is my first post, and yes I found this thread on Google. I like many others removed the pigtail spring first thing on my SW9F. It made a world of difference on the trigger pull. The SW9F does not have the outer spring like the newer Sigmas so I did not remove, stretch, or cut an outer spring. I then did a polish job on everything that moves and makes contact with anything else and felt quite pleased with my $225 second hand gun.
After reading the post about "do not remove the pigtail spring" I did as the poster stated and the gun failed to reset the striker about 20% of the time. I dry fired the gun, did not release the trigger, racked the slide and then released the trigger. I did this several times and the trigger will reset about 4 out of 5 times. I reinstalled the pigtail spring and it will reset every time now. I do not have the hard trigger pull with the pigtail spring reinstalled that I had when I first tried to modify it by removed the pigtail spring.
I want a gun that is 100% reliable. This is one of my truck guns and I have learned to live with the long trigger pull and even prefer it for a defense weapon.
doc540
Member
call S&W customer service
tell them your Sigma trigger is "rough and gritty"
DO NOT tell them it's "STIFF"
They'll email postage for returning the frame.
About two or three weeks later they'll ship it back to on their dime.
It will be dramactially improved, much smoother, and will seem less resistant.
They've done four of mine exactly like that.
tell them your Sigma trigger is "rough and gritty"
DO NOT tell them it's "STIFF"
They'll email postage for returning the frame.
About two or three weeks later they'll ship it back to on their dime.
It will be dramactially improved, much smoother, and will seem less resistant.
They've done four of mine exactly like that.
SIGMA Triger Lightening .....
Hi All -
I just talked with Frank @ LSG. He can & is willing to do the service for the trigger lightening - just not for free. Like myself, he's a one person shop and gets tons of calls per day on this issue. This erroneous post has directly cost him lots of money (time).
Most are reasonable when they find out the shipping is not incl. (too good to be true) and some are not. Either way, this poor guy is getting swamped unnecessarily.
If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
George
PS -- I also called S&W -- they claimed the free repair was an "urban legend" (again, too good to be true).
Hi All -
I just talked with Frank @ LSG. He can & is willing to do the service for the trigger lightening - just not for free. Like myself, he's a one person shop and gets tons of calls per day on this issue. This erroneous post has directly cost him lots of money (time).
Most are reasonable when they find out the shipping is not incl. (too good to be true) and some are not. Either way, this poor guy is getting swamped unnecessarily.
If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
George
PS -- I also called S&W -- they claimed the free repair was an "urban legend" (again, too good to be true).
I have been reading this post for awhile, and am thinking about getting the S&W SIGMA 9mm from Acadamy http://www.academy.com/index.php?pa...ing&start=8&selectedSKU=10+S&W+SIGMA+40+AND+9
Does anyone know if this is the same gun?
Thanks,
Kevin
http://all4him.zapto.org/CTCS/index.php
Does anyone know if this is the same gun?
Thanks,
Kevin
http://all4him.zapto.org/CTCS/index.php
Vettewine
Member
Academy.com Sigma...
Yup, Kelman, that's the baby and it's a great price (same as what I paid at Bud's Gun Shop 6 months ago). Hope they still have it at that price as I think that S & W still has the $50 rebate or 2 extra mags...! Sweet...!
Yup, Kelman, that's the baby and it's a great price (same as what I paid at Bud's Gun Shop 6 months ago). Hope they still have it at that price as I think that S & W still has the $50 rebate or 2 extra mags...! Sweet...!
Vettewine
Member
9 mm or .40...?
I, personally, prefer the 9 mm as there are a lot more reloading choices and the mag capacity is more. However, the choice is yours to make and either one will serve you well...!
I, personally, prefer the 9 mm as there are a lot more reloading choices and the mag capacity is more. However, the choice is yours to make and either one will serve you well...!
Silk purse from a sow's ear
I'm a new poster, but not new to guns or amateur gunsmithing.
The trigger pull weight of a gun, particularly a double-action (I'm not going to get into the debate about "it's not double action because it doesn't have a hammer"), is dependent on two things: friction and springs.
The design of the gun generally assumes that friction will go to near zero with use and then the springs will be the main factor.
The SW40VE is well-designed, but rather cheaply manufactured, which means the out of the box heavy trigger-pull is mostly caused by friction, and I think that posters who are happy with the trigger out of the box probably got a smoother specimen than I did.
I've looked at the internet videos and seen that they mostly involve doing something with the springs. If the main problem is friction, then messing with the springs is breaking something that isn't broken, instead of fixing what is broken. I've got guns that are over 100 years old and still in good working condition, ball-point pen springs are not built to last 100 years in a gun.
The problem is not in the trigger group but in the lower sear mechanism. The "gritty" feeling comes from there, as does a lot of the friction.
The sear in any gun is two metal surfaces like blocks that face each other under spring pressure when the gun is cocked and the trigger causes them to slide apart, abruptly releasing the hammer, or in this case, the striker.
In the SW40VE the lower sear and sear housing are located in the rear of the frame. The lower sear is a cam which, when connected to the trigger by a simple metal link, will move rearward and downward, thus cocking the striker and then releasing it through a single trigger pull. The upper sear is in the slide, connected to the striker.
The "grittiness" is caused by the fact that slot in the lower sear has been roughly machined, causing the bar that pushes the lower sear rearward to "chatter" through the machining marks. Also, the lower sear has an "S" shaped curve at the rear which interacts with a plastic ramp in the sear housing to drive the cam downward as it proceeds rearward. Again, rough machining marks here cause friction. The plastic is not the smoothest it could be, due to mold marks.
Finally, the surfaces of both the upper sear (attached to the striker in the slide) and the lower sear are roughly machined surfaces, causing friction.
So the real "trigger fix" is:
1. Smooth and polish the contact surface of the slot inside of the cam that is the lower sear
2. Smooth and polish the part of the lower sear cam that contacts the plastic sear housing as it moves rearward
3. Smooth and polish the mold marks on the plastic sear housing that contact the sear cam
4. Smooth and polish the contact surface (which contacts the upper sear) of the lower sear
5. Smooth and polish the contact surface of the upper sear (which contacts the lower sear) (you need to remove the striker from the slide to do this)
I used a metal fingernail file from Revlon to get the machine marks out (thanks to my wife who gave it to me a long while back). I would say that the rough side is about 400 grit.
Then I used a 600 grit "Angle Cut Sanding Stick" (works better when wet) from www.stevenshobby.com to polish the surfaces mentioned.
You need a jeweler's loupe or some other 10X magnifier to look at the original condition and to see when you have polished enough.
Finally, I lubed all contact surfaces (including the side of the sear housing that contacts the sear) with a Hob-E-Lube dry graphite and molybdenum (HL651). Look for a hobby store that sells electric trains, for this stuff. I like dry lubes or Rem-oil in guns because neither tend to collect grit.
I would say the trigger pull is now smooth and comparable to a Glock 23 or the new S&W SD (which has a redesigned sear mechanism that has its own issues.) Maybe not as good as a S&W M&P.45, which I have also fired.
I know this sounds like a lot of work, compared to changing springs. But when you change or remove springs you are redesigning the gun.
Since this is primarily a self-defense weapon; would you bet your life on a gun designed by you?
The other issue is, if you fire on someone in self-defense, your gun will be impounded and examined. You don't want to explain to a court why your gun has had factory parts removed, replaced or modified to make it easier to fire.
The "fix" I've described keeps all of the factory parts intact, just working the way they were designed to work. If you don't want to do this yourself but you want to improve your gun, then copy this post and take it with your gun to a reputable gunsmith. He (she) should be able to give you an estimate of cost based on the specific tasks I have outlined.
You will be shooting tight groups with this "horrible trigger pull" right away.
Happy Shooting!
I'm a new poster, but not new to guns or amateur gunsmithing.
The trigger pull weight of a gun, particularly a double-action (I'm not going to get into the debate about "it's not double action because it doesn't have a hammer"), is dependent on two things: friction and springs.
The design of the gun generally assumes that friction will go to near zero with use and then the springs will be the main factor.
The SW40VE is well-designed, but rather cheaply manufactured, which means the out of the box heavy trigger-pull is mostly caused by friction, and I think that posters who are happy with the trigger out of the box probably got a smoother specimen than I did.
I've looked at the internet videos and seen that they mostly involve doing something with the springs. If the main problem is friction, then messing with the springs is breaking something that isn't broken, instead of fixing what is broken. I've got guns that are over 100 years old and still in good working condition, ball-point pen springs are not built to last 100 years in a gun.
The problem is not in the trigger group but in the lower sear mechanism. The "gritty" feeling comes from there, as does a lot of the friction.
The sear in any gun is two metal surfaces like blocks that face each other under spring pressure when the gun is cocked and the trigger causes them to slide apart, abruptly releasing the hammer, or in this case, the striker.
In the SW40VE the lower sear and sear housing are located in the rear of the frame. The lower sear is a cam which, when connected to the trigger by a simple metal link, will move rearward and downward, thus cocking the striker and then releasing it through a single trigger pull. The upper sear is in the slide, connected to the striker.
The "grittiness" is caused by the fact that slot in the lower sear has been roughly machined, causing the bar that pushes the lower sear rearward to "chatter" through the machining marks. Also, the lower sear has an "S" shaped curve at the rear which interacts with a plastic ramp in the sear housing to drive the cam downward as it proceeds rearward. Again, rough machining marks here cause friction. The plastic is not the smoothest it could be, due to mold marks.
Finally, the surfaces of both the upper sear (attached to the striker in the slide) and the lower sear are roughly machined surfaces, causing friction.
So the real "trigger fix" is:
1. Smooth and polish the contact surface of the slot inside of the cam that is the lower sear
2. Smooth and polish the part of the lower sear cam that contacts the plastic sear housing as it moves rearward
3. Smooth and polish the mold marks on the plastic sear housing that contact the sear cam
4. Smooth and polish the contact surface (which contacts the upper sear) of the lower sear
5. Smooth and polish the contact surface of the upper sear (which contacts the lower sear) (you need to remove the striker from the slide to do this)
I used a metal fingernail file from Revlon to get the machine marks out (thanks to my wife who gave it to me a long while back). I would say that the rough side is about 400 grit.
Then I used a 600 grit "Angle Cut Sanding Stick" (works better when wet) from www.stevenshobby.com to polish the surfaces mentioned.
You need a jeweler's loupe or some other 10X magnifier to look at the original condition and to see when you have polished enough.
Finally, I lubed all contact surfaces (including the side of the sear housing that contacts the sear) with a Hob-E-Lube dry graphite and molybdenum (HL651). Look for a hobby store that sells electric trains, for this stuff. I like dry lubes or Rem-oil in guns because neither tend to collect grit.
I would say the trigger pull is now smooth and comparable to a Glock 23 or the new S&W SD (which has a redesigned sear mechanism that has its own issues.) Maybe not as good as a S&W M&P.45, which I have also fired.
I know this sounds like a lot of work, compared to changing springs. But when you change or remove springs you are redesigning the gun.
Since this is primarily a self-defense weapon; would you bet your life on a gun designed by you?
The other issue is, if you fire on someone in self-defense, your gun will be impounded and examined. You don't want to explain to a court why your gun has had factory parts removed, replaced or modified to make it easier to fire.
The "fix" I've described keeps all of the factory parts intact, just working the way they were designed to work. If you don't want to do this yourself but you want to improve your gun, then copy this post and take it with your gun to a reputable gunsmith. He (she) should be able to give you an estimate of cost based on the specific tasks I have outlined.
You will be shooting tight groups with this "horrible trigger pull" right away.
Happy Shooting!
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Rem870Fan
Member
Favorite Sigma Post!
This is my favorite Sigma post on THR! I hope it never dies!!
I have a question about the trigger reset length. After a couple of hundred rounds thru my SW40VE and a lot of dry fire practice, the weight of the trigger is not an issue. I still feel a bit of grit, especially when doing an especially slow trigger pull, so I need to polish the internals as described above. What I want to know is how to shorten the length the trigger has to travel after firing round before the trigger resets.
Will this require some significant gunsmithing?
Keep up the comments!
RemFan
This is my favorite Sigma post on THR! I hope it never dies!!
I have a question about the trigger reset length. After a couple of hundred rounds thru my SW40VE and a lot of dry fire practice, the weight of the trigger is not an issue. I still feel a bit of grit, especially when doing an especially slow trigger pull, so I need to polish the internals as described above. What I want to know is how to shorten the length the trigger has to travel after firing round before the trigger resets.
Will this require some significant gunsmithing?
Keep up the comments!
RemFan
ukguyinala
Member
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2011
- Messages
- 1
Sigma .40
Ok, just to cover all points - I googled it, this is my first post and I do not work for S&W nor am I affiliated with them.
I purchased the Sigma because of the price point - I could afford it. If budget wasn't an issue would it be my first choice? Maybe not. Am I ashamed of it? Hell no! It is not the first hand gun I have ever fired, but its close to it. I have put maybe 300 rounds thru it so far with no problems.
I took my 12 yr old to a firing range so we could fire it and although he was able to, it was hard on his hand. I think that means S&W did a good job with safety.
I found that the stiff trigger did affect the accuarcy to begin with, but after practice, the grouping has improved. I should note that the very first shot would have been a "kill shot" if it had been needed.
Overall, as a complete gun novice, I find it to be a gun I am proud of and I am sure will serve my needs. If I can get this one right, all others should be easy.
Ok, just to cover all points - I googled it, this is my first post and I do not work for S&W nor am I affiliated with them.
I purchased the Sigma because of the price point - I could afford it. If budget wasn't an issue would it be my first choice? Maybe not. Am I ashamed of it? Hell no! It is not the first hand gun I have ever fired, but its close to it. I have put maybe 300 rounds thru it so far with no problems.
I took my 12 yr old to a firing range so we could fire it and although he was able to, it was hard on his hand. I think that means S&W did a good job with safety.
I found that the stiff trigger did affect the accuarcy to begin with, but after practice, the grouping has improved. I should note that the very first shot would have been a "kill shot" if it had been needed.
Overall, as a complete gun novice, I find it to be a gun I am proud of and I am sure will serve my needs. If I can get this one right, all others should be easy.
Rem870fan
I can think of two things I could do to improve that situation. But one might compromise the striker safety and the other could move the sear release point back so far the gun would not fire.
This is not an area for amateurs, so I would not touch it.
You can ask a gunsmith, I'd be interested to know how they could do that. Let us know if they will attempt it.
BRE346
Member
S&W9VE. I've been down the road over the trigger pull and Zebra365 has it right. I worked on that little slot until it was smooth and polished everything that slid over anything.
A good shooter friend showed me the need to knock the rear sight over. Now it's smooth, reliable and accurate.
I love the big comfortable grip.
A good shooter friend showed me the need to knock the rear sight over. Now it's smooth, reliable and accurate.
I love the big comfortable grip.
Rem870Fan
Member
Thanks Zebra. A S&W gunsmith is coming to my local gunshop this weekend, so I'll see what he suggests to shorten the reset.
I've only got 100 rds thru it but I'm doing a lot of dry firing and I'm seeing some improvement. Like BRE said, it just fits well in the hand.
I've only got 100 rds thru it but I'm doing a lot of dry firing and I'm seeing some improvement. Like BRE said, it just fits well in the hand.
Mad Magyar
Member
Come on, the forums are full of them...Suspicious because it's about a Sigma where all you hear is what a POS it is? Hey, this thread is years old....
mid atlantic prep
Member
The sigma was my first gun purchase after 11 years of not owning a gun. When I had my daughter I was pressured to get rid of my Taurus PT92. I had no problem with it and loved it until I bought a Glock 19. After a while of it sitting in its case, I decided to have the striker spring replaced and it is once again one of my favorite guns.
ET
Member
Mid Atlantic Prep: said:
Good to see this 7 year old thread getting bumped to the top still. Sorry to hear that you had to sell your PT92. I want either the 92 or a 99. They are somewhere in my top 5 wanted guns right now, along with a nice 1911, Glock 23, 34 or 20sf. I still like my SW40VE, but since I purchased a M&P 40 Pro Series with it's 5" barrel & 4Lbs. trigger the Sigma has dropped down on my favorite list. If I was in the market for a Sigma like gun right now I think I'd have to go with the S&W SD line. It has a 7 lbs. trigger that is sooo much smoother with a shorter trigger reset. It also comes with steel sights, the front one being a night sight. I would trade my Sigma for an SD right now if I could find someone who just had to have a Sigma...
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