Smoking Alternative

[Muppetdaze]

Hi, I'm British, so please bear with my weirdness,
I'm looking for a non corrosive black powder substitute....that smokes.(Black powder in the UK is legislated).

I intend using it to reload blanks for western reenactment, in the UK the revolver cylinders are pinned in and don't strip so they're a pain in the arse to clean properly

So does anyone know of such a beast? I have access to smokeless but perhaps there's something I could safely add?

 

[arcticap]

Hodgdon 777 powder smokes quite a bit.
The residue still needs to be cleaned but doesn't contain any sulfur.
It contains potassium perchlorate which makes it up to 20% more energetic than black powder by volume, and it only contains 10% charcoal. --->>> https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/triple-seven-sds-sheet-2017.pdf
It basically washes up with water.
I see that it's available in the UK. --->>> https://www.bushwear.co.uk/products/triple-7-777-ffg-powder-rifle-1lb

This video shows it being fired in a Ruger Old Army cap & ball revolver.

 

[arcticap]

Western Powders makes Black Horn 209 which is a muzzle loading substitute powder.
It's a direct replacement for black powder by volume.
It smokes but not as much as the 777 powder.
It cleans up with smokeless gun solvent.
I'm not sure how suitable it would be for blanks since it's said to be a progressive burning powder that stretches out the pressure curve.
But it may work.
Here's a video of it being fired in .45 Long Colt loads.

 

[DocRock]

There is no non-corrosive black powder substitute. All of the substitutes are at least as hygroscopic as genuine black powder and all contain compounds that promote rust.

Having addressed that fact, you have to see which of the BP substitutes are available in the UK. I note that 777 is available for home delivery from several sources, albeit at frightening prices!

https://www.henrykrank.com/reloading/powder/hodgdon-powder/triple-7-fffg-1lb-454g.html

 

[arcticap]

There is no non-corrosive black powder substitute. All of the substitutes are at least as hygroscopic as genuine black powder and all contain compounds that promote rust.

Having addressed that fact, you have to see which of the BP substitutes are available in the UK. I note that 777 is available for home delivery from several sources, albeit at frightening prices!

https://www.henrykrank.com/reloading/powder/hodgdon-powder/triple-7-fffg-1lb-454g.html

I'm not disagreeing with you, but what is the basis for the claim that "All of the substitutes are at least as hygroscopic as genuine black powder....Having addressed that fact..."
Where did you get that fact from?
Is that a fact about the by-products produced after each is combusted, from before each is combusted, or both before and after each is combusted?

I find it hard to understand how each powder can have such different formulas yet all are as hygroscopic as black powder or worse than the genuine stuff.
I don't even know what the definition of the genuine stuff is because every company and person makes it differently, and with a different formula and moisture content to begin with.

I don't see how they can all be as hygroscopic as an unknown.
To be honest, I don't even know what all of the by-products of all of the powders are, or the amounts of each, and that's a fact.

 

[troy fairweather]

For smoke I would just add a lube cookie in your blanks.

 

[damoc]

777 smokes plenty if you need more maybe add some powdered charcoal over the 777 under the ball just an idea I think i heard of some people adding flour over the powder charge to simulate more smoke.

 

[DocRock]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but what is the basis for the claim that "All of the substitutes are at least as hygroscopic as genuine black powder....Having addressed that fact..."
Where did you get that fact from?
Is that a fact about the by-products produced after each is combusted, from before each is combusted, or both before and after each is combusted?

I find it hard to understand how each powder can have such different formulas yet all are as hygroscopic as black powder or worse than the genuine stuff.
I don't even know what the definition of the genuine stuff is because every company and person makes it differently, and with a different formula and moisture content to begin with.

I don't see how they can all be as hygroscopic as an unknown.
To be honest, I don't even know what all of the by-products of all of the powders are, or the amounts of each, and that's a fact.

Leaving aside personal experience, which I cannot possibly expect you to accept, there is the simple matter of what hygroscopic means:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/terms/hygroscopy.htm

It means a substance that attracts and/or holds moisture. None of the black powder substitutes achieve the level of combustion of smokeless powder. They all leave a considerable residue. All of the residue is of course dessicated and none of the residuals of any black powder substitutes offer water shedding or inhibiting attributes. They are all, each and every one, leaving various carbonates - whether sulfur or potassium, all subject to a degree of moisture uptake and subsequent oxidization. All of the residuals are therefore hygroscopic. It is true that less residue means less hygroscopy, so if you are promoting Blackhorn 209 as “cleaner burning”, while that is an unestablished opinion, it would have some merit if true, but would, at most, be a matter of degree.

All of the BP substitutes use potassium perchlorate (a key component in the “corrosive primers” of yesteryear). In the paper below you will find an analysis of BH209 clearly stating its contents of potassium perchlorate.

https://tsapps.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=926574

In the discussion below, a “powder expert” outlines the result of combustion of potassium perchlorate. Short version: it leaves potassium chloride.

https://www.camp22.org/black-powder-pages/barrel-fouling-black-powder-vs-substitutes

And the following paper details the extremely hygroscopic properties of potassium chloride.

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep43572

All black powder substitutes are hygroscopic and to at least the same, if not greater, degree As black powder. But, if you doubt me, shoot your firearm with Blackhorn 209, and then leave it a week or so without cleaning. I’ll wait.

 

[DocRock]

And for the OP, if the appearance of smoke is enough, avoid black powder and it’s substitutes altogether and, as suggested above by Troy, see if you can get enough smoke with a Lube cookie.

 

[arcticap]

All of the residuals are therefore hygroscopic. It is true that less residue means less hygroscopy, so if you are promoting Blackhorn 209 as “cleaner burning”, while that is an unestablished opinion, it would have some merit if true, but would, at most, be a matter of degree.

A matter of degree does in fact seem to refute your initial conclusion of what was asserted as being fact.

I didn't promote anything other than how to make smoke which is what the OP asked for.

 

[arcticap]

All black powder substitutes are hygroscopic and to at least the same, if not greater, degree As black powder. But, if you doubt me, shoot your firearm with Blackhorn 209, and then leave it a week or so without cleaning. I’ll wait.

I've never shot Black Horn 209 powder, have you?
No one made any claims in this thread.
And I recently posted about cleaning it whether it needs to be cleaned or not, so I don't know what your point is or what you're trying to insinuate.

 

[DocRock]

I've never shot Black Horn 209 powder, have you?
No one made any claims in this thread.
And I recently posted about cleaning it whether it needs to be cleaned or not, so I don't know what your point is or what you're trying to insinuate.

That’s just absurd. Do grow up.

 

[arcticap]

That’s just absurd. Do grow up.

You're the one who is promoting smoke and mirrors when the OP only asked how to make some smoke.
Personal sttacks are really stupid.
Try staying on topic.

 

[DocRock]

You're the one who is promoting smoke and mirrors when the OP only asked how to make some smoke.
Personal sttacks are really stupid.
Try staying on topic.

Let’s be clear.

• I made a factual statement that all BP substitutes are hygroscopic and corrosive.

• You questioned that fact.

• I provided evidence that substantiated the assertion.

• You reacted petulantly to having your claim that all substitutes couldn’t possibly be hygroscopic refuted.

That’s what transpired. You may apologize. I’ll wait.

 

[Muppetdaze]

Okay i made my first tactical error, I google 'Lube Cookies' and various things come up halfway down the page which might involve a weapon but don't involve revolvers.......the error part? The wife was sat next to me..
So a mixture of fat and wax will burn off, not splatter anyone close by?
Someone else suggested adding non dairy creamer or 'coffee mate' as we know it in the UK, lots to clog up the revolver?
Cheers for the ideas so far, just any smoky lube recommendations that don't involve a visit to pornofilthbag.com?

 

[troy fairweather]

While no one should be in front of the barrel when the triggers pulled but I'd think they would be fine if back and few paces.
The coffee creamer may make a fireball that stuff can be explosive with the right air mixture and a ignition sores.

 

[Muppetdaze]

Cleaning

On a supposed cap and ball, for example

https://www.henrykrank.com/guns/bla...a-colt-1860-army-steel-frame-blank-firer.html

It takes cartridges. You cannot remove the barrel wedge, you cannot remove the barrel, you cannot remove the cylinder. You can remove the trigger guard, and innards should it become necessary.

Now as they have fully blocked barrels, all the crap comes out sideways, something the UK laws think is safe, and some of the gases will probably work their way down the cylinder pin or arbour. Hence my opinion that being able to take the trigger guard and grips off and drop the whole thing in boiling water then relube might be a necessity at times, please tell me an easier way ( I did think of dropping it into boiling oil?)
Lots of fuss just to make theatrics work

 

[Black Jack Shellac]

Hi Mr Daze American Pioneer powder. It claims to be non corrosive .It is a BP Sub I have used it and it smokes a lot. Big white clouds . What I don't know is if it will have a big bang if fired as a blank charge. It may need the pressure you get with shooting a live charge. Say do you have access to Ballistol Oil. It's just about ideal for cleaning BP from guns. It mixes with water and prevents rust.
Black Jack Shellac

 

[Muppetdaze]

Hi Black Jack, Would that be ballistol universal oil?

 

[MEHavey]

https://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/2770/bh209-rusty-barrels-costly-reality
DocRoc is correct. All current BP substitutes leave combustion residue/ash/salts which -- while not corrosive themselves/dry -- attract moisture and become a troublesome slurry of bad jujuj.

American Pioneer powder sidenote: while internet lore say leave you rifle uncleaned/no problem.... don't bet your barrel on it.





I am constantly amazed at the panic associated with the BLACK POWDER IS CORROSIVE !!! meme.
Simple/fast wash out w/ soapy water and leave oiled. Easier than smokeless.

 

[Black Jack Shellac]

Mr Daze You would be correct

 

[DocRock]

Hi Black Jack, Would that be ballistol universal oil?

Indeed.

https://ballistoluk.com/

Hi Mr Daze American Pioneer powder. It claims to be non corrosive .It is a BP Sub I have used it and it smokes a lot. Big white clouds . What I don't know is if it will have a big bang if fired as a blank charge. It may need the pressure you get with shooting a live charge. Say do you have access to Ballistol Oil. It's just about ideal for cleaning BP from guns. It mixes with water and prevents rust.
Black Jack Shellac

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/rcm.4520

Figure 5 in the above contains a spectral analysis of American Pioneer Powder, demonstrating that it contains Potassium Perchlorate at levels comparable to or exceeding other black powder substitutes. Potassium Perchlorate was the principle corrosive agent in corrosive primers. Post combustion, it yields Potassium Chloride, a much more corrosive compound than the Potassium Nitrate left by black powder. Like Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Chloride is removed by flushing with water - the same as black powder fouling.

There is no non-hygroscopic "substitute" for black powder, and any substitute containing potassium perchlorate is potentially MORE corrosive than black powder. Both substitutes and black powder are best cleaned by hot soapy water.

Black powder substitutes do not exist because they are cleaner, less hygroscopic, or less corrosive than black powder. They exist because black powder is classified as a low level explosive requiring different licensing and handling procedures, while the substitutes are formulated to circumvent classification as an explosive. That is the sole reason for their existence.

 

[arcticap]

BLACKHORN 209, FINALLY A SOLUTION TO BLACK POWDER FOULING --->>> https://blog.westernpowders.com/2018/06/blackhorn-209-finally-a-solution-to-black-powder-fouling/

Here's an excerpt from a letter by a California Hunting Instructor about his experience with BH 209.

"... As to its corrosiveness, well, here it can’t be beat. After putting over 400 rounds through my Thompson Center Impact last June, I forgot to clean the bore. When I remembered it, it was over a month later. I expected the bore to be ruined but surprisingly, not even a hint of corrosion was evident. This seemed impossible to me so, I decided to give it a test and see what would happen if I waited even longer. Ultimately, I left the gun uncleaned for eleven full months. I just stored it in the safe without even an oily patch run down the bore. Finally, I could wait no more. I pulled the breech plug and ran a BH209 solvent soaked patch down the bore. It did not go easily, and I figured I’d just roached a perfectly good barrel. I wetted a second patch and this one slid through like it was coated in KY jelly! I then ran a third patch through and it too went “slicker’n snot” as they say. I followed with a clean dry patch and the cleaning part was done. A careful inspection showed no pitting, no staining and absolutely no sign of damage whatsoever. The breech plug got a brushing with 209 solvent and a ran a welding pip through the flash hole to get any crud remaining there. A little oil down the bore and I was done. Now imagine trying that experiment with Pyrodex of heaven forbid, real black powder? It would not have turned out so well!..."

 

[arcticap]

I edited post #3 referring to Black Horn 209 powder as being a smokeless powder.
Although it is based on nitrated ester, the US regulatory authorities classify it as a solid propellant, just like any other substitute powder.
From 2011 - 13, Nevada considered it to be a smokeless powder and banned it, but then changed its hunting regulations which legalized it since 2014. --->>> http://blackhorn209.com/nevada/

 

[DocRock]

BLACKHORN 209, FINALLY A SOLUTION TO BLACK POWDER FOULING --->>> https://blog.westernpowders.com/2018/06/blackhorn-209-finally-a-solution-to-black-powder-fouling/

Here's an excerpt from a letter by a California Hunting Instructor about his experience with BH 209.

"... As to its corrosiveness, well, here it can’t be beat. After putting over 400 rounds through my Thompson Center Impact last June, I forgot to clean the bore. When I remembered it, it was over a month later. I expected the bore to be ruined but surprisingly, not even a hint of corrosion was evident. This seemed impossible to me so, I decided to give it a test and see what would happen if I waited even longer. Ultimately, I left the gun uncleaned for eleven full months. I just stored it in the safe without even an oily patch run down the bore. Finally, I could wait no more. I pulled the breech plug and ran a BH209 solvent soaked patch down the bore. It did not go easily, and I figured I’d just roached a perfectly good barrel. I wetted a second patch and this one slid through like it was coated in KY jelly! I then ran a third patch through and it too went “slicker’n snot” as they say. I followed with a clean dry patch and the cleaning part was done. A careful inspection showed no pitting, no staining and absolutely no sign of damage whatsoever. The breech plug got a brushing with 209 solvent and a ran a welding pip through the flash hole to get any crud remaining there. A little oil down the bore and I was done. Now imagine trying that experiment with Pyrodex of heaven forbid, real black powder? It would not have turned out so well!..."

You are like a dog with a bone. A quite foolish bone at that. Presenting an advertising endorsement as counter to scientific analysis and fact is just silly. Stop being silly.