so let's say bolt-actions were still used by the military

[Ash]

Well, regardless of whether or not the K31 would have survived or thrived in combat, which we will never know because it never took the test, the final combat record of the straight pull rifle was not good. No straight pull rifle can be considered a success in combat as an infantry arm. Perhaps in the sniper's role, the straight pull fared well, but in all other uses, it cannot be considered a success. The Lee was discarded before combat, the Ross was an abject failure, and the M95 Mannlicher was abandoned as an infantry rifle after WWI (would have been abandoned before WWI had the war not intervened).

In other words, the historical record is not very complimentary towards the straight-pull rifle. And, given the Swiss usage of the various Schmidt-Ruben designs and derivatives, any current commercial hunting rifle would have fared just as well.

Ash

 

[MD_Willington]

Something like a PAR-1, it's a pump action AK

 

[JesseL]

I'd say that once manual repeaters (either bolt, pump, or lever) were invented, and once smokeless powder had it's kinks worked out; the invention of autoloading firearms was absolutely, 100% inevitable.

It would be like having an atmosphere of nothing but hydrogen and oxygen and being unable to create water.

That being said, you would probably see something like a Remington 7615. There's no reason to exclude a shift to small caliber, high velocity rounds and large magazines; and the pump action doesn't require you to shift your hands from a firing grip.

 

[Funderb]

Pump action would be hard for a sniper. they
spend most of their life on their belly after all.
Maybe as a battle rifle, but not a sniper system.

 

[Cosmoline]

Most of the rep of straight pulls comes from problems the Schmidt-Rubin and K-31's simply never had. It's like condemning the Mauser 98 because there were problems with the Mauser 88 or the needle gun. There's nothing per se unreliable about a straight pull action! To conclude otherwise is to condemn all semi autos and select fire weapons, since they operate on similar principles. Indeed, a manual straight pull offers superior torque and extraction over a semi or select fire rifle. The K-31 and S-R designs are not overly complex, they're just UNUSUAL and most American shooters don't understand them.

That said, I think the Rifle No. 4 still represents the ultimate manifestation of the bolt action war rifle. The large magazine, sufficient but not overpowering cartridge load, and the fast action are all features in its favor. It is still being used in combat worldwide, though not by first world military forces. Personally I've never cared much for them, but they do get the job done and in a pinch I'd take one over any AR platform.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Most of the rep of straight pulls comes from problems the Schmidt-Rubin and K-31's simply never had.

They never had problems mostly because they were never put to the test.

 

[LeonCarr]

No big deal. From what I have read and experienced, the autoloading type rifle has the advantage out to about 400 yards. Bolt action rifles, especially those equipped with telescopic sights, are much more accurate past 400 yards than the "Assault Rifle", and would allow the bolt action guy the ability to take out the assault rifle guy before even being seen with the naked eye. The simple solution if armed with bolt action rifle is to learn to shoot it at long range before the target sees you .

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[Cosmoline]

They were never in a war, but as the stocks to many K-31's will testify they were put to tests over and over and over again. They drilled hard, shot and literally lived with those rifles for years. I've heard for years about how the actions don't perform well in the real world, but I've never noticed a problem with them. Nor have I heard any actual description of what's supposed to jam up on a K-31.

 

[RLsnow]

as i understand it they were trained with alot, and spent alot of time in the field.

what do you mean when you say "put to the test" ?

 

[Funderb]

If someone will donate to me a spare k31, I will gladly put the rifle through a stress test.

no takers? oh, darn.


but really, they were designed to work well in harsh environments.
In the cold, wet, and snow. That's where they were born. I'm sure they would have done fine if they were made in a non-perpetually-neutral nation.

 

[Cosmoline]

I've used K-31's in subzero temps in Alaska and worked the actions with dirt on them, but I've never done any formal torture testing. I'll keep an eye out for a rattier K31 and grab it up for that purpose. One thing I'm very good at is abusing firearms.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Um, okay... I'm thinking black plastic, likely a Dragunov style stock. It would be either very long, or a carbine. A very precise target sight, and a battle sight along with a "Scout" scope would be your setup. Probably straight pull. Probably a 20 rd mag, probably something about 45 mm long, with a 6mm to
7mm bullet.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

One thing about "testing" is that no one dies in tests. No one goes through conditions that test designers never anticipated.

No weapon has ever performed in actual combat as its pre-acceptance tests indicated it should.

 

[aka108]

No 4 MkII Enfield

 

[Vaarok]

MAS-36 with a detachable mag.

 

[alemonkey]

Trapdoor Springfield.












Oh, wait...you said BOLT gun...

 

[R.W.Dale]

Most of the rep of straight pulls comes from problems the Schmidt-Rubin and K-31's simply never had.

There's nothing per se unreliable about a straight pull action!

The problem with a straight pull is that UNLIKE a turn bolt rifle with it's powerful camming action you're at a marked mechanical DISADVANTAGE with regards to chambering and extraction.

In other words you can FORCE the bolt closed on a chamber full of crud and fouling with little effort on a turn bolt rifle. Heck it's quite easy to rip the case head right off a really stuck case in a turnbolt that's how much leverage you have.

Try the same thing with a K-31 and you'll be kicking the bolt handle for half an hour trying to open the action.

This is the same reason you cannot reliably neck size cases for any straight pull rifle. No mechanical advantage.

A K31 is fine when shooting ammo produced to EXACT specs in the relativity surgical environment of the shooting range. But suitable for the trenches they ain't.

MAS-36 with a detachable mag.

I agree! The MAS36 was the final and top development of the bolt action infantry rifle. So overbuilt they make a Mosin action look like a DAISY BB gun, I simply cannot envision one breaking. Very simple as well, IIRC there's only something like 13 parts to the action/bolt assy. Great sights that are almost bullet proof all you need is the addition of a 10rd mag and a safety mechanism.

 

[JesseL]

The problem with a straight pull is that UNLIKE a turn bolt rifle with it's powerful camming action you're at a marked mechanical DISADVANTAGE with regards to chambering and extraction.

This sounds reasonable, but why is it not an issue on gas-operated autoloaders that use breech mechanisms that are functionally identical to straight pull bolt actions?

 

[Timthinker]

This is an interesting hypothetical thread which I have thought about for a long time. My take on it is the bolt-action rifle reached its pinnacle development by the late 19th century. By that time, bolt-action rifles were repeater firearms using smokeless powder. No contributor has suggested a bolt design that departs from those essential parameters. Now, this is not to say that some improvements such as composite materials or detachable magazines could not improve the tactical efficiency of such guns. Yet, these improvements, if they are seen as such, do not change the essential handling qualities of this old design. Therefore, I believe a modern bolt-action rifle would not differ significantly from what we have seen in the past. I hope this helps.


Timthinker

 

[Hoppy590]

Mosin Nagant, M44.

MAYBE the mythical M44L. longer barrel, folding bayonet. chambered in 308 or a rimless 7.62X54 ( it hurts to NOT type the R... seriously, i typed it 3 times and had to delete it)

maybe slap a detachable mag. MAYBE.

though i agree, pump action is the best idea. lever action is good for standing fire, but not for prone.

 

[R.W.Dale]

This sounds reasonable, but why is it not an issue on gas-operated autoloaders that use breech mechanisms that are functionally identical to straight pull bolt actions?

Cause with autoloaders you still have a quite powerful gas system and springs aiding in feeding and extracting.

 

[Ash]

Yeah, the gas-system of an auto is stronger than a man's arm. If you disagree, you could always try to keep the Garand, M14, AK, or SKS bolts shut with your hand when you fire it. And, when you end up with a wicked case of game-keeper's thumb, or end up with your thumb on the ground, or a giant gash in your palm, you'll quickly appreciate the power of the system.

Indifferent wartime ammo could be a real problem - but again, who knows? The K31 was never used in combat.

Though I am a Mosin man, I would think a #4 Mk 2 Enfield cut down to carbine length would be the perfect combat bolt action rifle. (not a #5 in case, by shortening the #4, the wandering zero could be eliminated)

Of course, I would be very happy with a Finnish M27 cavalry carbine (or, if need be, an m44).

Ash

 

[woodybrighton]

it would be an enfield the no4 no5 war winning can't build a better bolt action battle rifle
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/leenfld.htm
20 to 30 hit a minute at 200yards
Using the L42 the 7.62mm sniper variant completely ruined a civy practical rifle
shooters day more hits faster than he managed
mind you the 100 metre runs finished him off
and i was loading the rounds by hand

 

[Baba Louie]

woodyb,
I enjoyed reading the last sentence in that link...

The all time aimed fire record with a bolt action rifle was by Sgt. Snoxall of the British army, 38 hits on a 12" bull at 300 yards in 1 minute.

Gives a man a goal to aim and shoot for... ya know?

 

[USSR]

I would not find myself lacking if I had to use my Smith-Corona 03-A3.

Don