So many new pistols coming to market, is it overkill? Which one is best?

[ChanceMcCall]

Just like many (most?) of the guys behind the gun shop counter.

Where do you think they learn it?

There has always been the problem of gun writers being afraid to fully express their opinions for fear of alienating advertisers or firms that helped support their shooting habits or inventions. But, and it is an important but, the gun writers of the 30s-70s actually had real experience and plenty of it. Most of them, save Elmer Keith also had a formal education that lent itself to what they were writing about when it came to ballistics, trajectory, and other issues. Many of them had military experience as ordinance officers or gunnery officers as well as their formal education.

When Charlie Askins talked about serious social situations, he knew what he was talking about as did Bill Jordan and Skeeter Skelton. All of them had been in numerous and very real gun fights where people ended up dead. With Charlie, a lot of people ended up dead. I was fortunate enough to have good friends at Shooting Times magazine and being that it was headquartered in Peoria, Illinois I got to know and socialize with their writers when they came to Peoria. (George Nonte lived there so we saw each other almost every week.) Every one of them were real outdoorsmen except George and they all were skilled with shotguns, rifles and pistols as well as camping and fishing. Some, like Charlie, were second generation writers, as his father was famous for all of his works on shotguns which are still authoritative to this day.

Col. Townsend Whelen who died before I would have ever have had a chance to meet him, was respected and well-liked by his colleagues at Guns & Ammo for his expertise in cartridge development. He was also a survivalist who plied his experience in by living off the land in both North and South America.

George Nonte, a very dear friend, spent 20 years as a part of Army Ordinance and went on to do "contract work" for the CIA after leaving the Army. He was an absolute expert on combat handguns. American Handgunner even created an award in his name and Massad Ayoob became the first recipient of that award.

All of these guys and more, had real experience and most the education that allowed them to quantify and understand what they were reviewing. A number of them were national champions in competition. Many of them served in areas of law enforcement where gun fights were common rather than the exception to the rule. While the regular readers of Shooting Times may have thought of Skeeter Skelton as an easy going guy because of his self depreciating humor in many of his articles, they did not really know him. He was a lot of fun and had some outrageous stories, but, anyone who crossed him was in very deep trouble.

Today, we have people, often still living with their parents, or being supported by their parents, turning out blogs and You Tube videos portraying themselves as gun experts. The internet, which is a valuable tool if used with a bit of care, makes it all possible.

 

[helitack32f1]

When all of the top manufacturers start making 5 or 6 lines of pistols, like Smith, is it profitable or just confusing. Between the original M&P line, The 2.0, The Shield, and the versions within each category, "let alone 1911's", and now a 380 shield to compete with the Glock, "I guess". is it more or less profitable than doing what Glock did, by just making one line of guns, and including just about something for everyone. I just saw a 380 shield last night on slickguns, It's insane for new shooters to distinguish between a sea of guns when they walk into a large store and are completely overwhelmed by not just the 2 to 4 lines of guns made by each company, but then need to determine the caliber for the model they pick. This goes way past the knowledge curve of even the more than average gun lovers ability to know barrel length, size weight and feel. It is one reason why people keep selling what they bought in hopes of finding a gun that does this, but doesn't do that, yet does it better quieter and with less recoil,
Us old timers know there is no such thing as the perfect gun for everyone, folks have been searching for the "magic pistol that fits in your pocket, holds 15-20 rounds of some caliber that stops you dead in your tracks with one shot, and has no recoil or noise to go along with it's stealthy profile, and weighs 12 ounces, also has lasers night sights and sonar built in, like the new cars and trucks have.
Gun manufacturers have figured out that if they just keep making the gun of the week, that people will keep trying the newest model in the hope of finding that wonder gun. Someone prominent who doesn't rely on kickbacks from the gun makers, should write a Primer on how to buy a handgun, beginning to end. don't you think? If you knew twenty or more years ago what you know now, how would that influence your decision making process, and wouldn't newbies benefit from you experience?

To answer your question about profitability, I would have to think Glocks way of doing things is very profitable, if not the most profitable. Basically, a minimum of effort due to the similarity of all their guns combined with maximum exposure as well as still charging as much or a little more than the other companies offerings. Seems like a very profitable business model.

I am intrigued by Ruger recently. I like how they have come out with a slew of new guns for different interests but also taking into account the need for less expensive, quality self defense guns and I think they are really onto something there, especially if the Security 9 takes off and is a huge success. I really hope the Security 9 takes a huge bite out of the compact 9mm market and forces other companies to maybe rethink their pricing strategies. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people see gun quality as being related to price, so will probably always see an inexpensive, quality Ruger as something nice, but a step below a Glock or Hk or anything else more expensive.

As for the tremendous amount of options out there, I would like to think I would love the options if i was completely new to the market. If you are not pressed for time, I would relish the opportunity to work through all the options, finding what works for me the most. The only problem I have is all new people to the gun world are at the mercy of people behind the counter that are often overly biased for one gun or against another, and usually it is not a bias related to anything that really matters.

 

[walnut1704]

The manufacturing process has been totally transformed by technology. It is now possible to make relatively small batches economically. I think the manufacturers are tossing designs out there as fast as they can, trying to see what will stick to the wall. If it sells, they ramp up, which they can now do quickly. If it doesn't it ends up at CDNN et al. They probably still break even.

The U.S. civilian firearms market is huge. There's probably at least 20,000 rabid fanboys (for every brand) that will buy one of whatever they make. The Obama years pulled a lot of sales forward and now comes the push-back. But it's just temporary.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

You can't possibly shoot them all, so you need a mentor who you trust, and that knows what you need, not what they like.

I disagree. I had no mentor and nobody in my family was a shooter or gun owner.

How did I figure out what I wanted?

I did a few hours of research each day for a few weeks. I considered all the options. I watched Utube to see how recoil characteristics looked, but tunned out a lot of the noise. I read online reviews. I handled A LOT of guns before buying. And when I was ready to buy my first handgun, I found a shop clerk who seemed knowledgeable and LISTENED to what I wanted.

If you take time to research, are willing to buy a gun knowing it may get traded away once you've experimented with it, then you can make an informed decision without a "mentor".

Critical thinking and focus goes a long way. As you said, you can't shoot them all, but you don't have to.

 

[george burns]

I beg to differ. Huge/painful/debilitating amounts of recoil can prevent you from being accurate. If you only need one bullet, why not carry a single shot? A scandium-framed j-frame .357 shooting hot 158+ grain loads is (for me) so painful that it would (and has) hinder any follow up shots. Bad guys usually travel in groups.

/hijack

I agree when you go to that extreme, I was speaking of discomfort that you would not like in a gun that you used as a target or range gun. A small 45 is still manageable for most of us, I am 6 foot and 200 lbs with big hands, so what may be tolerable to me, may suck to another shooter. The 357 mag in the j frame series of guns was always a mother to shoot more than a few rounds out of accurately and quickly but some guys can do it. I never bothered to try, as I learned and carried a revolver, S&W 60, chiefs special, and a colt Detective Special for over 20 yrs in NY. So I never saw a reason to go with the bulkier 357 back then as the +p rounds worked fine for me. We all thought differently back then, and there weren't many guns that you could conceal if you were carrying in street cloths besides a snubby or a ppk's. Now I see people with 10 mm full size guns, or 15 round 45's attempting to dress around them, and it's a full time job trying to do so. Honestly the gunfight you are likely to have will be fast and bloody, within arms length most times, or maximum of 10-15 feet away. Most folks, regardless of what they tell you, are going to not even remember what happened until 3 days later. So in my opinion, a single stack 9mm-45cal is just fine with 8-10 rounds in it and 1 or 2 spares. It's just not practical to try and find that extra mag, and reload while someone is shooting at you, "should that anomaly happen" . Look if 2or 3 guys are trading Ten rounds each at each other, the chances are one or both of the caught a bullet, "where", is the key. A lot of these new generation gangbangers were in the service also, and know weapons better than someone who took a weekend course. Maybe they have even been under fire. The key is to make that first shot count, then follow up if needed, the other guy is going to run, 99% of the time, once he sees his buddy go down he is out of there. So just get something you can shoot well, I happen to shoot 45's the best, next to 38's, which I won't carry because 5 rounds is enough for 1 guy, that's about right according to every statistic I have ever seen, 9mm-4 rounds to drop a perp unless you are good enough to take a chance on a head shot. 50% of all shots fired miss their target in gunfights, "look at the FBI 's own stats on FBI shootings. 45 calber -2 rounds average. If you only have 5, and 2 are complete misses, that leaves you light and forcing a reload, and that's with one perp, so again I say 8-10 rounds is better. Chances are you take a round, to a non vital spot, 80% of the body can be hit without significant damage. Just make sure your shots go where they were supposed to. I sincerely hope no one here ever has to use their gun in this manner. It really sucks, watch where you are going, especially when entering stores or gas stations, stay off the phone and look to see how many cars are parked outside, and if there is a driver sitting in there. Half of this is prevention, and that can only work if you pay attention.
Off topic, I had a violent car accident 3 weeks ago, totaled my new 4000 mile black on black Mustang. My first in 50 years, a woman made a left turn into oncoming traffic,"ME". I always thought I could get out of anything behind the wheel, and have cheated injury and possible death pulling some pretty cool maneuvers behind the wheel, of many sports cars.
When someone turns into your lane, and guns it, taking up 2 lanes with an SUV, and there just is no place to go, in a split second you say crap, I am going to hit this truck., the adjuster came to the house after 3 weeks, of negotiating, he was pretty nice, actually very nice, he said I just wanted to meet the guy who walked away from that crash. I didn't think whoever was driving, made it. Car was Totaled, I lost 10grand, but am alive.
It was ruled her fault, but I can barely walk and am in pain all the time, so you never see these things unless you are paying attention, I hit her in the passengers door, that's the only thing I was still able to control, "where I hit", which probably saved me from more injury. If I hit the engine or wheels I would have been gone, the softest spot was the door, she had no passenger. I still had the presence of mind to look, then get out and restart my car and get it off the road, even though I could hardly walk and the air bag hit me hard. I tried to render aid to the woman who 45 minutes late was still in the vehicle, It appeared she was having a seizure of some kind, but that's just a guess. She should not have been behind the wheel. So all the planning in the world will only work if you are paying attention, It was a bright sunny day and I was on my way to the nursing home to see mom,"Dementia", what could go wrong? The only reason I bring it up, is that's how it's going to happen when some idiot starts shooting, same scenario, you need to survive.

 

[fastbolt]

Unless you're looking for a full size truck with diesel and a manual transmission.

I imagine the manual transmission option makes it harder than it used to be, huh?

 

[CLP]

I imagine the manual transmission option makes it harder than it used to be, huh?

Pretty much impossible.

 

[SwampWolf]

I imagine the manual transmission option makes it harder than it used to be, huh?

Try finding a new truck without a/c or one with roll-up windows-not that you'd necessarily want to.

 

[george burns]

I got a new crossover "Terrain Denali", with more electronics in it than I have ever seen, including 360 degree cameras, lane departure system, auto warning system if someone's too close, if your out of your lane, a wifi hotspot, built in so you always have a signal, and new stuff I am finding on a daily basis, the service Manager told me it had 18 computers in it. But if some idiot hits you like happened to me, they are all completely worthless, and if you spend your time looking at all the warning indicators, you probably will drive into a wall. But even the base trucks, have a ton of electronics in them now.I still can't figure out how they get it to take a shot from above, unless OnStar uses a satellite for that, which would suck if you were a bank robber, lol

 

[ChanceMcCall]

Try finding a new truck without a/c or one with roll-up windows-not that you'd necessarily want to.

I would like to find a truck with roll up windows, durable seat coverings, and no radio like my old (1975) International Harvester 3/4 ton that long ago bit the dust. Not only did it not have A/C (other than windows and vents) the heat wasn't much either.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Back in the 80’s it would take you a month or two to get the same information that you can get in a day with the internet today.
Just think if you had a question about a gun you read about in Guns and Ammo, or Shooting Times. You would have to visit a few gun shops talk with gun people you knew . If it was a new gun, most likely you wouldn’t know anyone that had firsthand knowledge.
Today you just need to logon the internet on a gun forum and post your questions. You will be bombarded with answers ans options.
Today’s gun market is not targeted at old shooters. There are a lot of new comers to the gun market today, most that have never fired a gun or have very limited knowledge. Just hang out at the gun count and watch who is looking at guns. You will often see new buyers with someone that has limited knowledge, a friend, helping them pick out their first gun.
Most old shooters could care less for about 50% of the new guns coming out. This is because we are set in our ways, or know what works for us. But the new shooters are still cutting their teeth, and need enough to chew on. The younger generations like having more to choose from and the gun manufacturers are giving them what they want.
Some manufacturers are doing a better job then others, like Ruger, Glock and S&W. They are looking at the future and what the new shooters want. Unlike Remington who offered new items that no one really wanted.

 

[tarosean]

I'd hate to be a newcomer to the gun culture these days. Far too many similar choices out there and it's harder to discern which are actually junk if you're a newbie.

The reality is not many are truly "junk" now-a-days. You walk into a LGS and there is an extremely high probability that you will walk out with a gun that will work well.

Sure we all have our preferences for this or that. Doesn't necessarily mean they are "junk" if they don't fit our individual idea of a perfect gun. Guns that flat out don't work are weeded out quite rapidly.

 

[ChanceMcCall]

Most old shooters could care less for about 50% of the new guns coming out. This is because we are set in our ways, or know what works for us. But the new shooters are still cutting their teeth, and need enough to chew on. .

Most of your post, I liked. I fully understand and agree with your point that new shooters are the growth of the industry.

As an old shooter it isn't that I could care less or that I am set in my ways. My wife carries a Boberg and we just bought a Bond Arms Bullpup. I no longer carry a cut down 1911. My carry piece has morphed from a Glock 30 to a Glock 36 to a Springfield Armory XDs. But, I am still shooting a Winchester 101 made in 1966 and a Marlin 39A made in 1951 because they still work and do the job. Most of my guns were made in the 50-60s because they still do the job as well as any new one.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Most of your post, I liked. I fully understand and agree with your point that new shooters are the growth of the industry.

As an old shooter it isn't that I could care less or that I am set in my ways. My wife carries a Boberg and we just bought a Bond Arms Bullpup. I no longer carry a cut down 1911. My carry piece has morphed from a Glock 30 to a Glock 36 to a Springfield Armory XDs. But, I am still shooting a Winchester 101 made in 1966 and a Marlin 39A made in 1951 because they still work and do the job. Most of my guns were made in the 50-60s because they still do the job as well as any new one.

Well, that’s what I was saying. We have the things we like and don’t differ much. The older we are, the more so.
Of all my guns, most were made before 1950, I just love old military stuff. When It comes to new guns, I like a good wheel gun and a steel frame auto. But in the world I work in a high capacity polymer frame Gun is almost a must.
Most of the younger shooters didn’t grow up shooting gun like we did. I have seen some that have only fired one or two different guns before the bought their first. And there are guns that are marketed for the first time buyers.
I like the fact that there are many different guns on the market, it keeps the price down.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Most of the younger shooters didn’t grow up shooting gun like we did. I have seen some that have only fired one or two different guns before the bought their first.

That's more or less how I started. No guns in my family when I started shooting. I wasted some money along the way, but I learned. I think sometimes people place too much importance on buying a gun. Sometimes it takes awhile to figure out what you like. It's ok, so long as you can afford it.

The fun part is even at a relatively young age, I am a neo luddite, and have a real big spot in my heart for revolvers, single shot rifles, and lever actions.

I like gadgets too, but the old tricks are the best tricks IMO. Buy a good revolver, and take care of it, and it will last a lifetime with a part here or there.

 

[SwampWolf]

I would like to find a truck with roll up windows...

Because I didn't trust power windows at the time in terms of "reliability", I thought I was smart to order a 1990 Chevy pickup from my dealer sans power windows. The salesman tried to talk me out of it but I was having no part of his argument. Smart indeed-until I tried rolling/unrolling the passenger side door window from the driver's seat while buckled in with the shoulder belt...

 

[Old Dog]

The reality is not many are truly "junk" now-a-days. You walk into a LGS and there is an extremely high probability that you will walk out with a gun that will work well.

True -- but for someone new to the world of firearms, there's an extremely high probability that they'll walk out with a gun that won't work well for them. Case in point, one of my daughter's girlfriends decided she needed a gun for her apartment and was contemplating obtaining a CPL after being a victim of a crime. She was sold a Ruger LC9 (not the "S") by a guy at a gunshop who didn't listen to her or get that she'd never shot a gun, and wanted a range gun and home-defense gun for her first handgun. Of course, the heinous trigger on that little pistol as well as the snappy recoil (remember, she'd never fired a gun before) turned her totally off of the whole gun thing until my daughter let her shoot some of her SIGs, specifically a P-225 and a 228.

Anyway, most folks coming up in the younger generations do not have the type of unrestricted access to firearms and the opportunities to go shooting a lot that some of, say, my generation had. Gaining experience with guns now is more difficult (lots less public land and ranges to shoot free on) and certainly more expensive. Yes, the internet contains answers to any question one might ever come up with -- but you'll have to sort through eleventy-billion subjective responses of dubious credibility.

Which is why, as some have already noted, we are responsible for growing the next generations of gun-owners, hunters and shooters, so it behooves us to be educated and be receptive to being mentors.

 

[Danoobie]

I know if I was a newbie to this stuff, I'd be overwhelmed with all the guns to choose from!

IMO it's a little scuzzy of manufacturers who all but clone glocks and sell them, trying to lure away the glock market. They need to be more
innovative, with their own designs, then use quality to try to compete, instead of debasing themselves with such shameless tactics.

 

[somethingbenign]

IMO it's a little scuzzy of manufacturers who all but clone glocks and sell them, trying to lure away the glock market. They need to be more
innovative, with their own designs, then use quality to try to compete, instead of debasing themselves with such shameless tactics.

I suppose this is why it was so easy for me to step into buying a pistol. I found out very quickly that polymer striker fired guns didn't get me excited to go to the range. Limiting my search to just hammer fired guns with a preference to metal frame narrowed the scope of the market I was looking at considerably. Being in my 20s I see a lot of guys who just don't have time/resources to dedicate to a large firearms hobby. Most that do want to shoot would rather go with something they can hunt with, I'm told it is easier to justify to the wife.

 

[tarosean]

IMO it's a little scuzzy of manufacturers who all but clone glocks and sell them, trying to lure away the glock market. They need to be more
innovative, with their own designs, then use quality to try to compete, instead of debasing themselves with such shameless tactics.

There has only been one clone and SW ended up paying for it in the form of lawsuits, plus royalties for each produced. Everything else on the market is fairly dissimilar in the way they go about the sears and other internals.
Now if you want to just claim a poly framed gun as glocks proprietary thing? You have to remember that they copied HK for that idea.

 

[zaitcev]

and now a 380 shield to compete with the Glock, "I guess".

I don't think the 380 EZ competes with Glock 42 the most, although obviously there's a certain overlap, given they shoot the same ammunition. But all it really does for S&W is replacing PK380 in their line-up, which they used to sell until 2013 when Fort Smith people took it away from them. So, the main competition for the Shield 380 EZ is Walther PK380 and Browning "Black Label" 1911-380.

In the same vein, one can say that other new guns have a competitive overlap with a Glock. The SIG P365 is like Glock 26, while Ruger Security 9 is like Glock 19. But they are not the same and this allows them to compete on something other than the price.

 

[Randyc74]

From a holster makers point of view. It's sometimes tough to keep up with the number of new offerings from the firearms manufacturers. New. firearms are being introduced faster then the mold gun manufacturers can keep up with. I have well over 50 mold guns in my arsenal and it's never enough. Several of my mold guns have only been used once, now now sit waiting for another order that may or may may not occur. At $55.00 per mold gun it's rather expensive to have my inventory sitting unused. Thus the life of a custom holster maker.

 

[zaitcev]

New. firearms are being introduced faster then the mold gun manufacturers can keep up with.

It is unfortunate indeed and it drives a consolidation to bigger holster makers. On the other hand, it can help local leathersmiths. When I needed shoulder rigs for my Pitbull 45 and Shield 45, neither of them had any molds anywhere, and neither matches other guns well enough (Pitbull's cylinder is 1.612" in diameter, and Shield is just larger enough than its 9mm brother). I went to a local holster man, who used actual guns wrapped in plastic as molds. The guns look not worse for the wear, I think they didn't even get wet. The resulting rigs were also inexpensive and good quality.

 

[ChanceMcCall]

From a holster makers point of view. It's sometimes tough to keep up with the number of new offerings from the firearms manufacturers. New. firearms are being introduced faster then the mold gun manufacturers can keep up with. I have well over 50 mold guns in my arsenal and it's never enough. Several of my mold guns have only been used once, now now sit waiting for another order that may or may may not occur. At $55.00 per mold gun it's rather expensive to have my inventory sitting unused. Thus the life of a custom holster maker.

I'm absolutely sure it is very hard on you guys. Just out of curiosity I looked at your gun list and only found one gun I own that I keep in a holster regularly. (XDs .45) That would drive me crazy if I were in your shoes and certainly explains why some makers specialize in certain guns only. It may also explain why there is not a lot of innovation in holster making anymore. The variety also comes back to bite not only the manufacturers, the distributors and the retailers in the butt, but also accessory makers like yourself.