So what is wrong with Alliant!

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Till recently, ATK (Alliant/Speer/etc) had this posted to their site:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=182147&d=1364769070

The only data that Alliant has backpedaled on in that manual, is covered by the Safety Notice below:

...

So for 9mm, 2015 guide has 19 total loads. 2004 guide has 38. I never knew it was THAT different.

They now say that Red Dot can't be used for 9mm. Considering I burned 6 lbs of it in 9mm during the drought, I liked their 2004 guide more. I even emailed to ask them. They said:
Alliant Reloading <[email protected]>
5/21/14
There is no tested load data using Red Dot powder in the 9mm cartridges.
Thanks,

Shoot Straight
DuaneVB
CCI/SPEER/ALLIANT POWDER
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID

So either they changed their test methods, changed a lot of their powder formulations, want us to use BE-86, or just want to keep the shotgunners shootin' too.
 
Web sites tend to be like that. Limited in scope. Usually means the company really just wants you to buy their manual.

However, if you click on 'Products' then the firearm type, then the powder, then 'All Recipes, then the cartridge, there is a bit more .40 S&W data. One is a 165(max is 5.8 of Bullseye. Reduce by 10%.). A GDHP is a jacketed bullet. Decidedly, no or very few cast bullets there though.


Actually a GDHP pistol bullet isn't a jacketed bullet in the conventional sense. It's actually a plated bullet.
 
Rule3, with Alliant and new powders they only list the new powers with the tested bullet. The old data probably listed only the 165gr GDHP bullet. When they worked up data for the new powder they used a FMJ and JHP bullet and added the data to the site. They didn't list other powders with those bullets because they didn't test them. I noticed this since they started adding new powders.
 
> A GDHP is a jacketed bullet

No, it is a plated bullet--with plating thick enough to act as a jacketed bullet. That was where the Gold Dot came from-a plated bullet that then had the meplat pierced for the HP, thus there was a Gold Dot at the bottom of the HP.
 
They now say that Red Dot can't be used for 9mm. Considering I burned 6 lbs of it in 9mm during the drought, I liked their 2004 guide more. I even emailed to ask them. They said:
Quote:
Alliant Reloading <[email protected]>
5/21/14
There is no tested load data using Red Dot powder in the 9mm cartridges.
Thanks,

Shoot Straight
DuaneVB
CCI/SPEER/ALLIANT POWDER
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID
So either they changed their test methods, changed a lot of their powder formulations, want us to use BE-86, or just want to keep the shotgunners shootin' too.

Hmm...

That is interesting...Some of us in the past have eMailed Alliant and asked specific questions such as 'charge weight of Red Dot with a 147gr FMJ in 9MM', and received specific answers that correspond to their older data...

My correspondence with them may indeed have been before the date of your contact (I believe it was), and they may indeed have decided to change their tune about their older data...

Since the Speer merger, ATK (ALliant) has only published data for Speer bullets, and only with a select few powders...

As with any old data, use at your own risk...
 
Or one could just try BE-86. Got my first pound yesterday and printed out the data for my load book.

You know, there is a lot of mention of the flash from Power Pistol like some sort of fatal flaw, but if one shoots outdoors in daylight and does not load their own SD ammo, the flash issue is moot, seems to me. However, BE-86 displaces Power Pistol, directly addressing the flash issue, and is worth a try. Power Pistol gives some great shooting loads in a number of calibers.
 
BE-86 is still a pretty fast powder; I'd prefer a slower powder for much of the pistol loads that I do (and use a buttload of Green Dot as a result).
 
I agree Green Dot is a lot like W231 in burn rate in handgun cartridges but it is much more difficult to find the sweet spot. When you do it's a very good powder.
 
Bullseye is faster than Green Dot by a bit (more than the chart suggests), and AFAIK BE-86 is just the modern variation on Bullseye.

No?
 
To me, BE-86 is the modern version of Unique but not a new powder rather old powder Alliant has not released to the public but used for manufacturers of ammunition for decades.

- BE-86 meters like Bullseye/Power Pistol because the granule type/shape/size is the same but not the same burn rate as Bulleye rather similar burn rate to Unique/Power Pistol. I believe Alliant's designation of Power Pistol is BE-84.

- BE-86 can load most popular pistol calibers like Unique

- BE-86 can produce higher velocities (than W231/HP-38 and faster burning powders) for full power loads

- BE-86 has produced some of the most accurate loads for me that surpassed many of my reference loads for accuracy, especially for 40S&W - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9924922#post9924922

- BE-86 burns cleaner than Unique
 
BE 86 is "MAGIC POWDER":)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=760289



Alliant Reloading
Member


Join Date: May 20, 2011
Location: Anoka, MN
Posts: 19


titegroup tiger,
I am glad to see you have stumbled onto some of the BE-86 we began shipping into distribution recently. Sorry to take so long to get it to market, but we have been under siege demand wise for all of our existing products in both OEM and canister markets that marketing didn't want to prioritize this new product (for canister). We will continue to get some out as we can, so if you ask for it, those orders should pull through.
I am very confident you will really like this powder. It is the same magic formulation as Bullseye(R) and Power Pistol(R), and virtually the exact geometry of Power Pistol. It is a little faster burning that Power Pistol though, and very similar to Unique(R), burn speed wise. As you mentioned, we have added flash suppressant to this product to moderate the flash response, whereas we do not for Power Pistol. BE-86(TM) is a high energy propellant though, so do not expect it to be flashless. The FS added moderates what would be maybe a basketball or bushel basket size bloom for a stout load of Power Pistol down to more like a baseball or cueball. I find it very acceptable from the shooter's position, and we have several OEM's that use this material for duty applications.
So to summarize, the "so what" on BE-86 is that it has the outstanding ballistics and ignitability of the BE series powders, in Unique burnrate, with great metering characteristics, with FS to moderate the flash bloom.
We worked up a good amount of data for this powder, but if we have left any applications out that you think might be interesting, send a message in through our "ask the expert" on our website, www.alliantpowder.com
Thank you for your interest in our new pistol powder BE-86.
Shoot well,
Paul
__________________
Please be aware that I am an employee of Vista Outdoor, and the views expressed in my posts are mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Vista Outdoor.
 
BE 86 is "MAGIC POWDER":)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=760289



Alliant Reloading
Member


Join Date: May 20, 2011
Location: Anoka, MN
Posts: 19


titegroup tiger,
I am glad to see you have stumbled onto some of the BE-86 we began shipping into distribution recently. Sorry to take so long to get it to market, but we have been under siege demand wise for all of our existing products in both OEM and canister markets that marketing didn't want to prioritize this new product (for canister). We will continue to get some out as we can, so if you ask for it, those orders should pull through.
I am very confident you will really like this powder. It is the same magic formulation as Bullseye(R) and Power Pistol(R), and virtually the exact geometry of Power Pistol. It is a little faster burning that Power Pistol though, and very similar to Unique(R), burn speed wise. As you mentioned, we have added flash suppressant to this product to moderate the flash response, whereas we do not for Power Pistol. BE-86(TM) is a high energy propellant though, so do not expect it to be flashless. The FS added moderates what would be maybe a basketball or bushel basket size bloom for a stout load of Power Pistol down to more like a baseball or cueball. I find it very acceptable from the shooter's position, and we have several OEM's that use this material for duty applications.
So to summarize, the "so what" on BE-86 is that it has the outstanding ballistics and ignitability of the BE series powders, in Unique burnrate, with great metering characteristics, with FS to moderate the flash bloom.
We worked up a good amount of data for this powder, but if we have left any applications out that you think might be interesting, send a message in through our "ask the expert" on our website, www.alliantpowder.com
Thank you for your interest in our new pistol powder BE-86.
Shoot well,
Paul
__________________
Please be aware that I am an employee of Vista Outdoor, and the views expressed in my posts are mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Vista Outdoor.

Well, there ya go! :D:D

I've been really pleased so far with BE-86! I always liked Power Pistol, so I'm not surprised that I like BE-86.
 
If you want other powder data go to products at the top of the page and choose "handgun powder". Choose the powder you want and then choose
"View all recipes".
The site will display all the recipes for that particular powder, which don't show up on the reloading data pages.

I have a really good source for powder of all kinds with my LGS and other than the 5lbs I bought when I started the post that Rule 3 referenced, I haven't seen it since anywhere. My LGS has Trailboss and Universal and the others that are supposed to be hard to get but no BE-86.

That or it's really popular and they can't keep up.
 
The OP asks this question "So what is wrong with Alliant!".

My answer to that question is that most of the suppliers of powder intended for use by pistol shooters and shotguns are too busy trying to put the "fun" back into DysFUNctional. Here we are 3 years into a major powder shortage and we are still going around praising the good Lord when we stumble upon a pound of our favorite smokeless powder.

Anyone who thinks that the leadership at Western (Accurate/Ramshot/Norma) or Vista (Alliant) or to a lesser extent Hodgdon is losing sleep over the lack of powder in Jimmy Handloaders supply cabinet is kidding themselves. When they say they are working overtime to meet demand at this point it's not "our demand" it's the demand of a customer(s) that they value more than us. Sorry if that offends.

tightgroup tiger sayeth:
....snip......
I have a really good source for powder of all kinds with my LGS and other than the 5lbs I bought when I started the post that Rule 3 referenced, I haven't seen it since anywhere. My LGS has Trailboss and Universal and the others that are supposed to be hard to get but no BE-86.

That or it's really popular and they can't keep up.

If it were that popular there would be all kinds of sucess stories on the various handloaders forums. Few of us are talking about BE-86. The company rolled this product out a year at least before they had any in distribution.

On the other hand, certain powders like Bullseye and Hodgdon Clays will fly off the shelves at a fantastic rate without any real effort from the supplier. But you ask Alliant when will (for example) American Select be available again and they pretend that it is but due to the bad behavior of certain handloaders the rest of us cannot buy any. Two years ago that excuse worked but again we are 3 years into the debacle and still the powder suppliers have no clue when some of this material will make it to market. At least Hodgdon had the gumption to tell us that there was an incident in the factory that makes Clays.

I ask the question, what would it cost this industry to simply inform us something like "Powder A will not be available for the next 12 months, powder B will hit distribution in 4 months and powder C will be back in the pipeline in 18 months." "We regret the inconvenience but are informing you so that you can plan accordingly." Answer: nothing and this would be considered normal procedure for any other industry in the world.

We think that the powder suppliers are our friends. They are not. As a industry they have found out that they can take us for granted and we will do nothing. In the last three years I have read one or two articles in a magazine ( I think one was in the American Riflemen) about powder shortages. Why are there not any reporters writing for firearms related media willing to demand an answer to the basic question of what is the industry doing specifically to address our concerns? .....Crickets...chirping... There hasn't been one word of inquiry into this mess in the last two years from Handloaders Journal, a magazine intended to service the handloader.

If you want load information on some new powder that is hardly available then you need to insist that the suppliers take the time from their busy schedules to do some testing. Simple as that.

The situation is getting better but is far from normal.

Now gentlemen have a nice evening.
 
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just my $0.01 (saving the other penny for a scope). I'm a be-86 believer. After having shot about 150 rounds of 9mm using it I (bad judgement alert) loaded up 1000 for a class I took in december. They performed flawlessly and I used all 1k. So, now I'm a be-86 believer too
 
I think some were too quick to dismiss the notion that mega ammo orders for government agencies would impact the private market. There are a number of good arguments against that notion, but here we are, still blaming hoarders and powder companies for lack of our pet powders.
 
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I will also agree on be86. I haven't used it in 9 yet, but I used it to replace unique in my mid range 357 loads. I have not been able to approach aliant's velocities, but they have been clean an accurate, and the metering is as promised.
 
If you look at the Alliant marketing pages of the site, they push BE-86 for all handgun uses and have shuffled the older powders (e.g. the 'Dots') to the shotgun side. I dunno why that is, but I suspect that Alliant simply wants to more to updated manufacturing processes and that means moving to new powders....

I called up Alliant about the number of powders that had dropped off their reloading lists and why they did not have Blue Dot data in rifle calibers when there is an active group, lead by Seafire, who use Blue Dot in their rifles.

Alliant told me they were no longer publishing data for cartridge/powder combinations they thought inappropriate. Some of this is technical, they said they could observe pressure waves with the modern pressure gauges. For example, all of those 223 Rem loads with Blue Dot, they said small changes in components cause massive changes in the pressure wave. Which explains a number of the rifle blowups, not all in 223 Rem, that happen when reloaders used Blue Dot. I don't know about other powders. For example, Green Dot shot very well in my 38 Special and 45 ACP. They don't have 38 special data anymore. Maybe they think Green Dot is not a good combination. Maybe for other concerns.
 
Update

Well I did not expect this post to generate so many replies. I should have titled it

What is wrong with Alliants Website

All I was getting at was it used to show a lot of different powders for xyz loading. Now all the want to do is push BE 86 which I have yet to see.

Also I guess you can find some other loads by searching their web site differently like by the powder, but that is unusual. You normally would search by caliber.
 
Also I guess you can find some other loads by searching their web site differently like by the powder, but that is unusual. You normally would search by caliber.

Again...it's free. You also can download a free manual online.......glarp.atk.com/2010/2010_catalogs/alliantpowderreloadersguide.pdf

Want to search by caliber for a specific bullet, with a dozen powder options, buy a manual. Alliant's parent company ATK does that too, it's called the "Speer reloading manual #14"

The reason Alliant's website based reloading guide is not as user friendly as you may like is because it is not Alliant's main priority. Again, there is a free manual to download on top of their website based info and they sell manuals that are more complete. This is part of their business. Again, I don't know what else one would expect for free.
 
Again...it's free. You also can download a free manual online.......glarp.atk.com/2010/2010_catalogs/alliantpowderreloadersguide.pdf

Want to search by caliber for a specific bullet, with a dozen powder options, buy a manual. Alliant's parent company ATK does that too, it's called the "Speer reloading manual #14"

The reason Alliant's website based reloading guide is not as user friendly as you may like is because it is not Alliant's main priority. Again, there is a free manual to download on top of their website based info and they sell manuals that are more complete. This is part of their business. Again, I don't know what else one would expect for free.


Perhaps you should go back and read post #12. Don't get snarky with me over buying manuals.I have it along with many other manuals. I also try to get many other new reloaders to buy them.

Their website used to give a lot more options. Compare there site to Hodgdons or Accurate, there is no comparison and those sites are believe it or not. FREE.
So lets just let it be OK?
 
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So lets just let it be OK?

Sounds good to me, but then I wasn't the one doing the whining. That's one of the things I've noticed most about the internet and social media. Once a great source of information and communication, it seems to have become just a place for venting frustrations and complaining about everything from the weather to yep, free reloading information. It has basically turned us into a society of whiners....
 
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