So, what's a good first sword to buy?

[tex_n_cal]

I was kinda thinking about how it would be fun to have at least one sword hanging on the wall, as a nice complement to art & photos & such. I did mention I was a bachelor, didn't I?

So what sword should I get? The criteria are:

Original(preferred) or quality reproduction (it is really hardened and can take a sharp edge)

nice looking and/or interesting history

useful for defense, in the rare chance some nitwit bursts in before I can get to a gun.

Tolerably priced (like say under $500)

Seems like some of the original Katanas (and repros) I have seen on Ebay would qualify, as would a lot of military sabers, heck even some tomahawks might qualify as well.

Suggestions?

 

[Bill Hook]

1796 pattern lt. cavalry sabre.

 

[LawDog]

useful for defense, in the rare chance some nitwit bursts in before I can get to a gun.

Well, what do you have training in?

If you don't have any training in long blade use, get a reproduction Roman gladius or a reproduction katzbalger.

Or, one of the khukris from a reputable firm.

LawDog

 

[Jim March]

What Lawdog said.

Hollywood doesn't talk about them much (with the exception of the Gladius) but a LOT of real-world combat swords were surprisingly short - overall lengths between 22" and 30". These were for very close ranges and/or indoor use. In Greek and Roman times, a lot of spears were in use and once you got inside the spearhead's range, a classic "dueling sword" with a 30" or more blade is a poor choice.

The Japanese had the Wakizashi, the Greeks had the Khukuri's ancestor, in the US Revolutionary period you had "hanger swords" and "Artilleryman's swords" with blades as short as 18" or less.

These don't have much "romance and glamour" to most modern eyes but such a critter is the first thing I'd reach for in the dead of night.

 

[JShirley]

1. Go to BladeForums.com.
2. Go to Makers and Manufacturers, then choose Himalayan Imports
3. Wait for "Uncle" Bill Martino to post specials. This happens once or twice a day, usually.

(Sometimes the specials will be discounted items because they have a lot in inventory, but most times, there will be kukuris that have a small bit of rust that is easily removed, or a small crack in the handle that a minute of time and a little Super Glue or epoxy will fix forever. Climate difference from Nepal and the Southwest, and bumps in transit usually cause the cracks. The kuk will still have a lifetime guarantee, and you'll usually get if for $50 or more off regular price.)

4. Choose a blade between 15" and 22" total length. Since it sounds like you don't have a lot of experience yet, I would recommend not choosing the lightest (kobra) or heaviest (AK) models. This will give you a world-class weapon and tool, delivered to your home, for an average of about $95 or so. Oh- they're very attractive, too. Gave a good working AK to a friend about two years ago, but he thinks it's too pretty to use...he's building a display stand for it.

Best,

John

 

[Bill Hook]

Khuks aren't swords and not the best wall-hanger I can think of.

 

[pwrtool45]

To answer your question: CAS Iberia (www.casiberia.com) makes decent European cutting swords. Everyone one different from the other in balance, reach and style. The only way somebody else can pick a sword for you is if they've seen you fight with a practice weapon, can discern your style and match it to you body type.

The inevitable katana question comes up sooner or later. Everybody and their brother has an opinion on Japanese blades. My opinion is to simply stay away from them until you learn what to look for, and even then you don't *have* to get a kat. Personally, I couldn't care one way or the other, but a lot of people absolutely swoon over anything related to Japanese swordcraft. The educated among them don't like it when you mention rapier-wielding Portuguese fighters.

My advice, however, is this: If you're not proficient with it, just go for a wall-hanger and look for a local SCA or FIE group for the necessary skill. From there, you can make your own informed decision. Until you develop your skill, you're really better off with a bat or stout walking stick. The sword won't be much more effective, and the old saying that something cuts like a "two edged sword" is very fitting. There is no "finger off the trigger" for a sword. An unshteated sword is more dangerous to you and those around you than an unholstered pistol, regardless of type. Definitely get some practice before you buy one.

 

[JShirley]

Khuks aren't swords

This can be well debated by the experts. Sure, *I* usually call them knives, but then, my favorite fighting knife is 16.5" long.

"Best" is always a subjective term. What I have described will be an attractive and very useable piece, at an affordable price, with a manual of arms that is easy to assimilate.

It will also not be production made, or designed for use from a horse.

John

 

[Kjay]

If you want a first rate "real" sword look at http://www.allsaintsblades.com/ , http://www.albionarmorers.com/ , and http://www.armor.com/. These offer the best production models within your price range. Trust me...

 

[Kjay]

Some AT hi-performance swords. Shortsword (20" blade) to longsword (36" blade).

 

[El Tejon]

Baat jaam do.

 

[BerettaNut92]

I want a Waki. The Colt Commander of Japanese swords

Who makes racks for them? I thought a sword and rifle would be neat to hang on the wall.

 

[VNgo]

Does anyone know any firm that produces decent-quality kiems (Vietnamese longswords), or do I have to get one custom-made? I have one, but it's a family relic and therefore not something that I can really practice with.

 

[JShirley]

If you can make a wooden model, HI craftsmen will make a handmade replica at a fair price.

And it will be a USER, too. The only complaint ever typically offered on these custom swords or knives is that they are sometimes over-built. If you go this route, just be sure the model is exactly what you want, 'cuz that's what you'll get.

John

 

[Drjones]

I bought this: http://www.albionarmorers.com/swords/deltin/dt5154.htm

and it gives me the warm fuzzies inside every single time I look at it hanging on my wall.

Makes me go like this too:

I think every man should have at least one quality sword.

 

[MrAcheson]

I'd recommend a kris cutlery repro gladius (www.kriscutlery.com). They are of the Pompeii pattern and are pretty, balanced, sturdy, and helluva sharp. Historical accuracy is better than some, but not perfect. They run about $200 I think. Its on my "to buy" list, just after a few guns.

 

[Bruz]

Surprised no one else has mentioned it but the most cost effective Katana that is functionable and looks good on the wall is a Paul Chen Practical Plus Katana. http://www.satansbarber.co.uk/blades/ppk.htm They can be bought new for well under your limit and a good used one for about half of your limit. Check out http://forums.swordforum.com/index.php?s= to learn more about swords...

 

[Dr.Rob]

Why not pick one that suits your heritage, if not your style.

Like a Pirate's cutlass and brace 'o pistols?

http://armsofvalour.com/miva/mercha...e_Code=AOVL&Product_Code=1863&Category_Code=P

 

[Hkmp5sd]

NOT this sword.

 

[Jim March]

Ummmm...one reason I'm not into Paul Chen's pieces is that he's using high carbon 1050/1060 series steels. They're OK, but 5160 as used by Himalayan Imports, Kris Cutlery, Albion, ATrim and others just kicks butt. It's a REALLY superior big-blade steel. Only problem with it: won't take a hamon (pretty and visible temper line) worth a dang.

In other words, if cosmetics is your biggest thing, 5160 won't do for a "classic looking" Japanese blade.

But if you want *performance*...

 

[tex_n_cal]

Training? Hmmm....

As far as actual defensive use of the weapon goes, it's remote possibility. I think the collecting/neat aspect of the thing is more important than being the most efficient sword.

Jim, yes 5160 is a spring steel, commonly used in leaf springs, so it's probably a lot easier for them to obtain than 1050...and yes, it has better hardenability and toughness, too, hands down.

What are folk's opinions of the typical Ebay Katana? Not the cheap knockoffs, like in the HSN video but rather the WWII or earlier vintage authentic Japanese swords?

Is it my imagination, or were Japanese swords a lot more expensive a few years ago, back when the novel Shogun was a big hit? Seems like they are now fairly reasonable in price, and have a little history to them? Seems like one needs to watch out for fakes?

 

[Jim March]

Well there's "fakes" as an issue, and then there's...well, during WW2 every Japanese officer needed a sword. Pilot, shipboard, didn't matter, had to have a sword. Tradition. Plus their handguns royally sucked .

So anyways, by about 1943/44, their sword quality well and truly stank. By the VERY late war period you could spot such turds by the stamped sheetmetal handles I kid you not but that wasn't until things got REALLY dire. Even before that, you'd see pieces that looked halfway OK but had a heat-treat worse than the HSN crap .

Let's remember something: in classic times, the steel used by Japanese sword-smiths was just Godawful. I'm serious here...it was crap. They got such fantastic blades out of it only by way of ridiculously difficult steps at the blacksmith's forge - all that folding and funky heat-treats with different types and thicknesses of clay on various parts of the blade to control the heat was to make up for how crappy the steel was. It's an awesome testament to their skill because even 1050/1060 series steels like Paul Chen uses would have been an upgrade for the Edo-period or earlier bladesmiths.

Well when you try and hurry up those "traditional processes" like they did when the war was going into the toilet, you get an elongated butter-knife - or worse.

Upshot: unless you REALLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING with early 20th century Japanese blades, the average first-time buyer is far better off with something in 5160, L6 or A2 or other "supersteel" and the heck with "tradition". Esp. if you want to do SCA bottle-chop competition or have something you could actually trust as a weapon in a pinch.

 

[MrAcheson]

Chen uses plain jane high carbon steels so that he can differentially temper them like a "true" katana. Most of your true spring steels will through temper too easily which you don't want in a classical katana. Incidentally true katana steel was more like 1075 or so last time I checked. The differential temper gives you a harder and potentially sharper edge than a through temper, but the soft spine is more prone to bending. In general the through tempered swords are a little more fragile but capable of a little higher performance.

As for japanese steel, yeah its bad and whats more its rare. I wouldn't go as far as Jim does in saying that all the features of the katana were created to try to minimize the crappy steel. Most of the folding and forging process was designed to do this, that much is true. The actual shape and structure of the sword really just make for a great cutting sword. Japanese armor was made with the same small bits of crappy steel tied together. A good cutting sword could work wonders on it.

 

[Jim March]

Correct, it was mainly the folding and the funky heat-treat that was meant to get around the steel quality problem. The shape, handling and grip structure is all excellent regardless of steel type.

And calling it "1075" from what I understand FAR overstates the stuff. It might have technically had that much carbon (.75%) when done, because part of what they were doing was folding wood ash remnants (carbon) into steel that had nowhere near that much plus had impurities. In fact, the starting-point steel barely qualified for the term "steel" - "iron with some crud in it" would almost be more accurate, until carbon was mixed in at the forge.

(Wootz steel on the other hand ran as much as 2.5% carbon from animal sources - bone meal in the forge coals and other such tricks. And they were *starting* with a much better metal.)

The primary problem with the "supersteels" is that they won't take much of a visible Hamon (temper line). So Chen is starting with a steel that's at least a distant cousin to the real thing, so he can get that pretty-looking Hamon.

My take is, heck with Hamons. Gimme a piece of Mercedes truck spring (improved 5160) and one of HI's kamis with a teapot . (Note: HI's metalsmiths pour water on the blade's edge with a teapot, controlling which areas of the blade are harder versus softer via the pouring, the metal temp and the water temp prior to this funky quench. Takes a lot of practice, but done right it's a damned effective process. It just isn't "Japanese traditional" at ALL.

 

[entropy]

I have a basic Crusader-type sword for my wall hanger, also a Union Artillery short Sword (Similar to a Gladius) that I intend to use for re-enactment when I can find the time/money. I have a Cold Steel Tanto for my combat knife, a Glock field knife for my hunting knife, and if I were interested in a sword for display with the possibility of defensive use, I would opt for a good quality steel Daisho with a display rack. The wakizashi is about the best size for indoor fighting. Outside I'd prefer a tachi, a little longer thana Katana, but then I used to demonstrate mideval sword handling at the local Rennaisance Fair with a Claymore. (Not the M18A2, the two-handed type) A basic Ninja-to would fill the combat bill, but kinda ugly for the wall, I think. For starters, a kendo practice sword would be a good choice until you develop some skill at arms. I mean the solid type, not the bamboo ones. En Garde'!