So who should do it?

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X-Rap said:
...If our outreach is to pussy foot around with soft spoken words that do not offend the tender sensibilities of "fence sitters" I believe we are through.
So you don't believe that we need to win over at least some of the body politic? You believe that we only need to address others who are solidly in our camp? You believe that it does no harm to our interests to reinforce negative stereotypes of gun owners?

So could you explain to us exactly how alienating voters and reinforcing their negative images of gun owners can be a winning strategy?

r1derbike said:
...I'm of the ilk we should be directing our efforts in the political arena, bringing the fight to the present evil empire.
Except that ultimately winning in the political arena requires enough support from the body politic. Politicians will not support positions that will lose them too many votes.

And that is how it's supposed to be in a representative form of government.
 
Frank, If we take a state like yours that has had a fairly constant drift toward disarming the public do you put that blame on the ones you say are loud and offensive or is it due to those who are overall liberal in their views and consider the 2A some dusty old remnant of days gone by.
I only single out CA because 40 or 50 yrs ago from what I have read it was a different world and is worthy of study for those of us that wonder what happened and how to prevent it from happening again. It is especially pertinent for those of us from CO who are seeing a similar transition here. Here we are fairly awash with guns yet have had a bad run lately. There was no shortage of good folks here speaking softly with reason to their neighbors about the dangers of the legislation but the shrill cry of those standing on the corpses of the theater and school shootings prevailed.
CA is full of reasonable people so why are they so strongly anti gun.
Mass. has historical context that you trip over and they like similar northeastern states are solidly anti gun and moving further that way.
I guess these examples kind of sway me to the loud and proud method that seem prevalent in pro gun moving states.
 
X-Rap said:
Frank, If we take a state like yours that has had a fairly constant drift toward disarming the public do you put that blame on the ones you say are loud and offensive or is it due to those who are overall liberal in their views and consider the 2A some dusty old remnant of days gone by.
I only single out CA because 40 or 50 yrs ago from what I have read it was a different world and is worthy of study for those of us that wonder what happened and how to prevent it from happening again....
There are probably a lot of reasons for increasing support in many places for gun control.

A lot of it started with the assassinations in the 1960s of JFK, RFK and MLK by nut cases with guns. Those were wildly popular public figures, and their murders laid the foundation for the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.

A lot has to do with the continuing urbanization of America. California, New York, Massachusetts, Illinois, etc., are strongly anti-gun in part because the bulk of the political power in those States is in a few major cities. The rural parts of those States are much more pro-gun or neutral. And in States like Washington and Oregon which generally have decent gun laws, the urban centers area still hot beds of anti-gun sentiment.

People tend to look for support and validation from others who share their tastes and values; and they distinguish themselves, often in a denigrating manner, from those who do not. So the city dweller likes to fancy himself sophisticated, socially liberal, well educated, urbane, fashionable, etc.; and he wants to associate with, and have his self image validated by, people he perceive are like him. And they set themselves apart from those they find different -- such as the type of person they believe usually owns guns.

Of course that's a gross oversimplification of a complex social phenomenon. But I think it works for this illustration.

When such folks listen to a Glenn Beck or a Ted Nugent, it reinforces their beliefs about why they aren't like, nor do they want to be like, gun owners. It thus further hardens their anti-gun sentiment.

If we want to make a dent in urban anti-gun sentiments, we need people who have guns but are otherwise similar to them. We must challenge their anti-gun sentiments by demonstrating that their perspectives on other things aren't inexorably intertwined with hating guns. A Glenn Beck harangue is not going to make a Suzi Soccermom question her belief that guns are bad, but listening to a gun owning Suzi Soccermom just might.

Many like the Glenn Becks, et al, because they say what we like to hear. We hear them and our response is like "you tell 'm." So they're cheerleaders reinforcing our beliefs.

But attributes that may make someone an effective cheerleader are not the attributes that make one a good spokesperson. To be a good spokesperson one needs to be able to effectively tell our story to people who don't necessarily want to hear it.
 
Wow. Very well said!

(Further, when some of "our" people are guilty of spreading distortions, fabrications, and other "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt" (FUD) among our own people, the balance starts to tip even more dramatically into the negative. When we have to work extremely hard to de-bug our own friends and allies to try and fix some of the problems our "cheerleaders" have created and/or promulgated among our own side, their value becomes entirely fatuous.)
 
We need DIVERSITY. We aren't all the same. So not one person can represent us all. Everyone has a place. But alienating/bashing some spokespeople because they aren't exactly "inline" with our individual beliefs doesn't help. Our goal is to get as many supporters as possible. And everyone plays a role. If someone speaks out about "The Nuge" and doesn't like him, well he still played a role. Same with Palin, Wayne, and others. Everyone can relate to someone. But everyone can't relate to one.
 
Sam, this is why I think we are winning, We don't contribute to the lies and fantasies. we tell it like it is and it s hard to argue with. However, I do understand that there is a lot of people out there that don't know crap from a good grade of apple butter, but they listen to what they consider to be "the news" and buy into all of it. Still yet standing by the truth is the way to victory IMHO.
 
BigBore44 said:
...And everyone plays a role. If someone speaks out about "The Nuge" and doesn't like him, well he still played a role...
What role, exactly? How is he helping? Who is he reaching? He might be doing a good job of "preaching to the choir." But how does that help?
 
If we want to make a dent in urban anti-gun sentiments, we need people who have guns but are otherwise similar to them. We must challenge their anti-gun sentiments by demonstrating that their perspectives on other things aren't inexorably intertwined with hating guns.

Sadly, we have these people in our ranks but they won't come forward for fear of losing their "place" in their circle. The young, urban, "educated", PC crowd (previously called Yuppies) are the ones buying up the popular CC guns that have been put out there the last few years. Soccer moms, college students, dual income, no kid (Dinks) households, etc., are buying guns at a huge rate but stay in the closet for fear of reprisal from their peers. I personally feel that the current stigma of gun owners has caused a great many of the new generation of gun owners to not share their dirty secret with their friends and family instead of showing them that owning a gun isn't just for backwoods hillbillys and bubbas.

Owning a gun almost feels the same as being a smoker (of which I am) so I speak from experience. Smokers are social outcasts and it seems that owning a gun makes you a radically inclined future terrorist. That perception needs to change if we are to gain national support against gun supression. That change won't come from the media so it has to come from the newest gun owners who are urban dwellers who wish to protect themselves and their families. I don't understand why that concept is so foreign to so many. I guess the old baseball bat standby makes them all warm and fuzzy for family protection.
 
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Sam, this is why I think we are winning, We don't contribute to the lies and fantasies. we tell it like it is and it s hard to argue with.
Oooohhh, ahhh...

That entirely depends on how far out you stretch the circle of "WE." There's public personality folks mentioned prominently in several of these recent threads who spend significant portions of their public lives telling their listeners gross lies and spreading and compounding enormous distortions of reality.

(Everything from, literally, the moon landing being a hoax, to alien visitations, to numerological clues in texts which reveal Obama's secret plans, to modern science being eugenics, to the DHS ammo buy boondoggle.)

THAT's why we have to be so careful adopting some of the more ... colorful ... personalities and letting them represent us to the nation. When they're killing the brain cells of OUR OWN side, they aren't even worthy cheerleaders, as Frank described them, let alone ambassadors.
 
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