So you think the majority of LEO's are anti-gun?

[SomeDude]

Half of my life I lived in rural towns in Iowa and Kansas where the local law enforcement were people who grew up there and therefore still had the same friends and same hobbies as before.
When I moved to a large metro area I viewed the cops more as "hired guns". A majority of them don't live in the same city, let alone same county that they serve.
I've also noticed that the younger generation of cops has become strikingly more militant. All and I do mean all of the officers here under the age of 35 have flat-tops and wraparound shades and quite frankly, they're *******s. To them everyone is a suspect. The older guys generally are more respectful. I guess the training has changed.

 

[Low-Sci]

So the perfect societal disarmament/confiscation tool is the traffic stop. All they have to do is not give the guns back afterwards.

I knew someone was going to say it.

It's not a good societal disarmament tool, it's a genuinely bad one. They have to wait for legislation that requires you to inform, then they have to wait for you to make a mistake so they can pull you over, then they have to wait for legislation that makes permanent confiscation of private property legal in the case of a traffic stop.

And then they have to wait for every rights advocacy group in the US to look the other way when it happens.

They'll be waiting for a damn while, I assure you. I'm not blaming you for being on your guard about firearms confiscation, but they'll have to do a little better than traffic stops to disarm society.

 

[Werewolf]

Werewolf, America is not a democracy. It's a constitutional republic. Yes there's a difference.

No FREAKIN' KIDDING! What's your point. Did you read my post at all? Did you read what I responded to regarding VOTING. The voting process is democratic. The type of our government is a Republic. The guy I responded to was talking voting. I was talking voting. Democratic process - get it?

And whether you or anyone else likes it or not be it a constitutional republic or a pure democracy the tyranny of the majority is a major problem that has yet to be successfully solved by nations with governments that rely on citizens voting to choose leaders and law makers.

Thus the guy who inanely thinks that we can solve all our problems by voting when we as gun owners are a minority is barking up the wrong tree.

 

[tpaw]

Could also be because as they climb the ladder, their jobs are less protected by contract and more subject to the whims of politicians...

Very good point! Here in the NYPD you take a civil service test for promotions up to and including captain. You are prompted by test score. Beyond that there are no exams, it's all political partonage, not what you know, but who you know. If you don't lock step with the mayors office (Mayor Bloomberg), an anti-gun advocate, your career is over. You will never be promoted beyond captain. Trust me, I know, X-NYPD.

 

[bohicaconcepts]

Not at the agency where I work!

I am a non-sworn campus security officer but I work for a medium sized private univesity campus Police department in NC. We have 50+ employees including both sworn and non sworn officers. Within our ranks we have a couple of officers who plan on voting for Obama. And several who wish Hillary was running. We also have a few who hate McCain and believe he is another Bush. Sworn officers in our agency cannot carry a firearm off duty unless they have a concealed weapons permit or unless they are retired (under HR218) from another agency. I am one of only two (2) officers in the whole department who have a Concealed Handgun Permit. Most of the sworn officers I have spoken to in the past 3 years don't support assault weapons for civilians. "People just don't need those things." Some of the officers are real hunters but they don't like high capacity weapons.

 

[Kino74]

Like anybody else with opinions, what are we considering pro-gun and anti-gun? The reason I ask is I know quite a few LEOs, all of whom are supportive of hunting and HANDGUNS for self defense; however, outside of that, not so much support ranging mostly from indifference to hostility.

I tend to find that people including LEOs only want to support the weapons THEY LIKE OR USE and if your guns are not in that category, forget about it.

 

[VegasOPM]

Soem LEOs that I have met are pro- some anti. It really doesn't matter. The key is to play by the rules of the State/ County/ City in which you find yourself. When that doesn't work, find yourself a very pro-gun attorney (preferably one who used to be a judge). I got the name of a pro-gun, pro-rights criminal attorney and spent $175 for an hour of his time and decided to part with $500 for a retainer- just in case. I am a law abiding citizen that could stand up to any level of scrutiny- but I don't want to be a pawn in someone else's game.

The LEOs have to play by the rules. Sometimes it just takes a gentle reminder of what the rules really are.

 

[TRGRHPY]

First of all let me say that I understand both points of view regarding the original topic of handing over your firearm during a traffic stop. However, the theory that a civilian with a CCW that gets pulled over is somehow going to all of a sudden become a danger to the officer is intellectually dishonest. CCW holders are obviously more responsible than other people. They have a clean criminal history (which shouldn't be very difficult, but some people have a difficult time not getting arrested), took a safety course, passed a background check. So why should it be assumed that if they were to be pulled over for a traffic stop, that they are going to go apesh** and start shooting at an officer? Remember, this is a law abidig citizen (the traffic violation being an exception..haha) who carries a concealed firearm for self defense, not to carry it so that they can shoot the first cop that pulls them over. If a CCW holder is that untrustworthy, then why are the CCW holders not shooting at other people for all kinds of other things? I mean hell, why not shoot the waitress who gave you bad service? I'm sure that can irritate a CCW holder just as much as getting pulled over, right? If a cop is pulling over a person who has a permit, what is the danger? What is the scenario they are afraid of? I can completely understand that traffic stops can be a little nerve racking at times, but some common sense should be issued with the badge. If a permit holder takes the time to inform an officer that they have a firearm, the person should not be treated as a threat. If they wanted to shoot the officer, I'm pretty sure that they are not going to let the officer know that they have the firearm and a permit, and then shoot him. That officer is in no more danger from a person with a permit than if that same person were to sit next to the officer at a Denny's while he is at lunch.

Don't get me wrong. I fully respect and admire Law enforcement. It is a thankless job that is grossly underpaid (along with other civil service jobs). Their families are under stress and sometimes they don't get to spend as much time together as most civilians. Their actions are always under a microscope and are second-guessed by people who know nothing of what it is to be in their shoes. But their job is to envorce the laws and serve the public. Not, harrass, humiliate and flex their musclepower against civilians...and that seems to be happening more and more. Someone earlier stated that it seems that the newer generation of officers seem to be the ones who are guilty of these types of actions. It was mentioned in a speech at the DNC last night(?) when it was stated that there should be better pay for officers and teachers so that they can attract better and more qualified people to be officers and teachers.

Now the attitude of several of the cops on that other website was BS. I think that officers are developing more and more of an adversarial attitude towards the public. The one stated something to that fact that "if you do what I say, there won't be a problem"...*** kind of attitude is that? Talk about the wrong type of attitude to have while dealing with the public.

 

[dalepres]

On duty however was a different story, with most citing "officer safety" as a reason to confiscate a civilians gun.

What about "citizen safety" as a reason to hold on to your gun. I'd love to see stats on how many CCWs have been involved in violent crimes versus how many LEOs. I searched and couldn't find any stats but my bet is that the LEO rate of crime is higher than the CCW.

 

[Deanimator]

The LEOs have to play by the rules. Sometimes it just takes a gentle reminder of what the rules really are.

And when we won't tolerate anything else, we get EXCELLENT police forces. When we don't, we get Chicago and New Orleans. I know which I prefer...

 

[jlangton]

Totally Irrelevant. If you disarm for the sake of disarming, you've already offended me and you're wrong. If I'm not a criminal (nor a threat), then give me my cite (if deserved) and have a good day. Otherwise, hands off.

I agree totally.
JL

 

[contenderman]

Pro? Anti? Neutral? It's a mix and it always will be. However the policies and attitudes of the department administration will most likely influence and reflect the attitudes of the street officers.

Stops are another matter. You can be following all traffic laws and have no obvious mechanical problems w/ your vehicle and still be stopped. Why? Well a couple reasons are, your vehicle closely matches a BOLO, or you may resemble someone in a BOLO.

If your stopped, the road side is not the forum for debating the right or wrong of the stop. If you choose to do so then things will more than likely escalate with results not to your liking. Stay calm, as needed, ask relevant questions, and if the officer is showing attitude, stay calm. Matching attitude with attitude will not resolve the matter.

Training dictates that the officer make any approach with the thought of possible confrontation in mind. If that training is followed the officer has a much higher probability of collecting retirement.

If you are legally armed, you have a responsibility to advise the officer accordingly and to follow their instructions. Most carry laws address this aspect. If the officer asks for your weapon(s), comply. If the officer indicates that the weapon(s) are being confiscated, move to settle the matter at the station not on the street.

Pocket knives, etc.? Anything that would reasonably make a potential weapon is of concern to an officer. Again, training dictates that in the appropriate situation an officer ask if the person being questioned/detained has any weapons on their person. You are obligated to answer that question and as circumstances require, to surrender the item(s) in question. As with the firearm(s) if confiscation becomes an issue, don't try and settle it on the road side.

Many years ago I lost a very good friend, a state trooper, making a traffic stop on a person (the son of family friends) that was well known to him. The boy shot and killed him, purportedly because he was panicked about the trooper finding a small amount of MJ that he had in the car.

I suspect that many current and former LEOs can provide similar stories.

Lastly will an officer go against orders ... no one can say for certain, but LE is similar to the military and the UCMJ "lawful order" compliance stipulations. Just following orders is not a viable defense for unlawful acts in either world.

 

[thumbody]

If you are legally armed, you have a responsibility to advise the officer accordingly and to follow their instructions.

Only if required by state law. Some require it others don't

 

[Intune]

It can be very dangerous out there at times and we all just want to go home to our families and loved ones. Is that two different groups?

It started as a routine stop but then as I’m getting out of my car the subject exits from his and despite my use of command voice and clear gestures for him to return to his vehicle he keeps coming. This guy is yelling at the top of his lungs and his face is all purple and I’m thinking this is going to be one serious problem and I’m on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere. That’s when I notice the gun…

I want to call for back-up but this dude is pissed and closing the distance fast. He has what looks like a Glock on his right hip and I can see a couple of magazine pouches on the other side. His face is all contorted in anger and spit is flying out of his mouth he is screaming so hard and loud. I try backing up to put some distance between us but he keeps coming despite my orders to get down on the ground. He reaches for me and I realize it’s go time…

I’m a pretty big guy at 6’3” & 240 and this guy probably comes up to my chin but he’s wiry and extremely angry. His first punch caught me square on the nose. All my years in the military, working out and force training are coming into play as I grab his left wrist and spin him around, slamming him with a satisfying crunch against the car. I should have gone for his gun hand… A rookie mistake after all my years on the street. As soon as I see the gun in his hand I perform a leg sweep and slam him to the ground using my superior weight to keep him pinned and begin slamming his hand against the pavement. Hard. Telling him to drop the gun isn’t working real well and slamming the road is just messing up a good gun (a Glock? Please.) So I resort to a disarming technique that I learned years ago and begin rolling the firearm out towards his thumb. Hey, if it snaps, too bad chump. Bingo! I toss the gun, grab the cuffs & get them on nice and snug. Now this guy is telling me how much trouble I’m in and how many laws I’ve broken and how I’m just making it worse on myself, blah, blah, blah.

I start searching this guy and find a blade in his pocket, a .38 in an ankle holster, pepper spray and an asp. In addition to all this he’s wearing a vest! Holy cow, I gotta check his car! Right there in plain view is a shotgun so I pop the trunk, lookie here. An AR-15 and level III vest. Is this guy starting a war or what?

Well, I knew the wife was probably getting worried and I no longer had a gun in my face so I pulled out my phone, patted the policeman on his head and walked back to my car. I wonder if all his coworkers still rag him about being found cuffed on the side of the road?

It can be very dangerous out there at times and we all just want to go home to our families and loved ones.


The above DID NOT occur. It is a parable/allegory.

 

[Kentucky-roughrider]

Most LEO I' ve meet are pro gun. The last time I was pulled over while armed, it was in OC and I had got my CCW yet. I deputy made a comment on my grips. I almost told him they sell them everyday.
Another LEO told me that I need to get one, before this happen.
In the next county the local sheriff, when not busy, is usually sitting in a local gun store. He even advessed me as to what kind of hoslter to buy for my 1911.

Intune,
I hope you were joking, or that you never met that LEO again. He may want a little payback.

 

[Robby]

Gee, I needed that last one this morning!! Nicely done! Sorry to slow, 2nd one above

 

[dalepres]

Well, I knew the wife was probably getting worried and I no longer had a gun in my face so I pulled out my phone, patted the policeman on his head and walked back to my car. I wonder if all his coworkers still rag him about being found cuffed on the side of the road?

Clearly LEOs should be disarmed during routine traffic stops. In fact, this guy assaulted a cop and should have been fired from his LEO job and charged with a felony and lost his right to carry or own a gun just like any other traffic offender who assaults the cop who pulled them over. But you're right; he probably got a ribbing from his fellow officers and paid a traffic fine.

 

[Kentucky-roughrider]

Intune,
Sorry, I thought you were the one being pulled over, not the other way around.

 

[Deanimator]

Well, I knew the wife was probably getting worried and I no longer had a gun in my face so I pulled out my phone, patted the policeman on his head and walked back to my car. I wonder if all his coworkers still rag him about being found cuffed on the side of the road?

Assuming that everything was as you described it, that pyscho should have been terminated INSTANTLY. If not, he and everybody in his chain of command should have been terminated. He's clearly just a homicide (or two) and a $20,000,000 judgement waiting to happen.

I don't know how prevalent such behavior by cops against other cops is, but I suspect it's moreso than people might imagine.

The Chicago PD cop who beat up the 50 year old woman and 63 year old man in a Niles bar in a drunken stupor recently has a LOOOOONG history of violent behavior, including against other cops. The previous Superintendent actually tried to fire him (a truly ASTONISHING attempt at normal supervision for HIM), but was, I believe, overruled by the Police Board.

I don't know for sure, but I imagine that if a Rocky River, Ohio cop tried assault with a deadly weapon against another cop, no matter where, even if he wasn't prosecuted, his career path would pretty much end with asking to inspect receipts at Walmart.

And now that I think about it, one of the guys they nailed on an episode of "To Catch a Predator" was a serving cop. His SUV was PACKED with firearms and ammunition, including some sort of M4. I'm actually surprised that he didn't try to resist the officers who arrested him, since his law enforcement career (and life in general) were pretty much over for him. Apparently in some smaller departments, "screening" pertains only to the back door of the station...

 

[dalepres]

Assuming that everything was as you described it, that pyscho should have been terminated INSTANTLY.

+1. And possibly terminated in ways you perhaps didn't mean. The guy drew a weapon in anger on a cop doing his lawful and moral duty. The guy was lucky that InTune didn't shoot him or break his neck.

 

[Deanimator]

The guy was lucky that InTune didn't shoot him or break his neck.

+10,000 In a lot of jurisdictions, he'd have been deader than Dennis Kucinich's last braincell, and deservedly so. That's non-adaptive behavior, regardless of whether you're a cop or a citizen. InTune didn't say that I recall, but that level of stupidity is usually only achieved through the use of drugs or alcohol.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

I don't believe they are.

I deal with LE officers and our troops every day and they are pretty much all pro-gun. Plus, the ones I am related to and have as friends feel the same.

Any logical LE officer knows that a law abiding citizen with a weapon is a friend.

It's mostly high ranking metropolitan LE people who are puppets of liberal anti gun politicians who feel that way.

 

[Intune]

Guys, I was being sarcastic, joking, making up a parable/allegory to show that I'm armed, you're armed. I'm tough, you're tough. You can call for back-up, I can, er, um, I can watch you call for back-up! I'm having a good day, you're having a good day. I'm getting a ticket, you're giving me one. No prob. I earned it. But don't disarm me unless you get a hinky/bad feeling about me. It's disrespectful and demeaning and you know it.

I'm the guy that will turn my car around to assist an officer on the side of the road wrestling around with some idiot. I'm the guy that saw the Sumner County Sheriff car next to the field with the drivers door open and a pair of legs extending out and went over to make sure everything was O.K. Only to find a thankful deputy checking a bad fuse. More honest citizens with guns means you might have the back-up you desperately need before you even have the chance to call for it.

Now, I realize that you don't know me as a good guy or a bad guy when you turn the lights on but I would hope that after a few years on the force and the fact that I either proffered my CCW card or produced it upon request would play into the whole disarming ritual.

Sorry for the derail. My friends that are TBI or deputies welcome CCW's. Their superiors are politicos and don't.

 

[AntiqueCollector]

My observations are that the more urban an area the higher the percentage of police against private ownership and carrying of firearms. Case in point: I have never had a problem open carrying in most of VT, most of which is a fairly rural state. I have had a couple run ins (pretty negative experiences) in one of the more urban areas (Rutland City) and from my experience there could see the police in that city are by and large anti-gun. I have heard of similar problems from others in Burlington, Bennington and Brattleboro. My stance is, I'm suspicious of any and all cops until I know for certain they're not bad. The us versus them attitude I see becoming more and more common in police can go both ways as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Intune]

Sorry, I thought you were the one being pulled over, not the other way around.

K-r, you had it right. And I was indeed joking.

After reading so many of Deanimator's posts I'm scared to death of LEO's. He's not making this stuff up either. I never know if it's a good cop or a bad one approaching me so I disarm all of them until the stop is concluded. It's all about citizen safety.