So you're with a girl and you get confronted by a gang...

[El Rojo]

In this scenario I can't help but to think of the Steel Challenge! How fast can you knock over 8 targets.

If they are young punks, they might not be armed. However, if at least one or two of them are armed, it might turn into a shoot-out and the odds are not with you because there are so many of them. Even if only one or two of them are armed, you have to pick out the ones that are and shoot them. Not for legal reasons, but for the reason if you don't get it right one of them is going to get you. If they are not armed and they are confronting you, give the cell phone to the girl, go under your shirt and act like you are getting ready to draw. If they keep coming, pull out your pistol and hold it at your side or in front of you. I would think that would convince them to go elsewhere for a little fun. Then get the heck out of the area.

Some people are going to say you should never draw your gun unless you intend to use it. That might be in the theoretical world. But I have heard stories of people just drawing their weapon and it instantly turns the situation into their favor. If you are going to draw, make sure you call the police and do it right away. The main reason people tell you not to draw is they think that the criminal is going to get their made up story to the police first and you will get thrown in jail. If you have a CCW and you call first, the odds are most certainly with you. And drawing doesn't necessarily mean holding the gun on them, it might just mean taking it out and letting it be known it is there. Again, every situation differs. If there are 8 guys and they have you surrounded, you already failed your primary mission of avoidance. So basically, you are in a bad position. Once you have failed that, screw all rules and laws, you are now in a fight for your life and there is no second place. If you are worried about a lawsuit when you should be worried about living, you might not live. You worry about lawsuits when you are escaping and evading and the points before that.

What ever you do, be firm and be authoritative. If you have no escape, then you gotta do what you gotta do, but you have already failed your primary mission. In reality, this situation could have turned worse. Why didn't it? The fact that you are armed made you a complacent and thick skinned guy that didn't need to get back at them. If you had yelled at them back or tried to play the tough guy, that might have been the provocation they wanted to kick your butt and take your money or your lady friend. As all good minded CCWers are, you were probably saying in your head, "This isn't worth their lives." So the whole thing turned out best, because you kept a cool head and didn't make this anything more than it had to be. If you didn't have any escape routes and you had your back against a wall, learn from that and avoid that situation again.

 

[Drjones]

Some people are going to say you should never draw your gun unless you intend to use it. That might be in the theoretical world. But I have heard stories of people just drawing their weapon and it instantly turns the situation into their favor.

I too have heard the same thing.

However, there is a subtle but VERY crucial distinction, IMO;

If you ever draw, you must be a) ready to use your weapon b) justified in using your weapon

That does NOT mean that you start shooting as soon as you clear leather.

Remember that stat that approximately 60-70% of all situations in which a firearm is involved end without even a single shot being fired.

Obviously, each situation is different, but if the mere sight of your firearm is enough to make them leave, we're all better off.

As all good minded CCWers are, you were probably saying in your head, "This isn't worth their lives."

EXACTLY.

Nor is it worth a red cent of mine in legal expenses.

Thank you for the reply, Rojo.

 

[MLH]

As for swimming

With a gun, spare mag, light, knife, cell phone, keys, lighter, change, wallet and misc. things, I would sink like a rock so I think that is NOT a good option!

 

[R127]

Erase The Hate

Please remember, it is you who is at fault in this situation. These proud young men are just so full of life that they need to creatively express themselves through their articulate speach. What you so derogatorily refer to as "catcalling" was in fact imaginative street poetry and spoken word. They didn't have a care in the world but YOU went out of your way to oppress them and their colorful culture. They are good boys, undoubtably somebody's babies. While you are out their oppressing them they are enriching and strengthening our society with the vibrant energy of cultural diversity. You foisted feelings of disenfranchisement upon them. Instead of discriminating against them you should have acted in an inclusive way by letting them take turns kissing "and stuff" your girlfriend.

 

[Drjones]

R127:

BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!






Thank you for that laugh!!!

 

[45R]

Instead of discriminating against them you should have acted in an inclusive way by letting them take turns kissing "and stuff" your girlfriend.

Now if you were in the same boat.....would you let them take turns kissing your girlfriend or wife?

 

[Matthew Courtney]

What some posters may be missing..... is that this young lady is not yet a girlfriend. I percieve her to be your date.

IIRC, in the initial stages of modern courtship young ladies often prefer to engage in preliminary displays of affection in a semi-public setting, if for no other reason than it requires a less assertive effort to discourage an over eager paramour. The regrettable frequency of date rape causes many young women to feel more comfortable with public "closeness" than going back to his or her place because it is safer for her in some aspects.

Thoughts?

 

[R127]

Seriously Though

To answer the question, no, not in a million years, wether she's my girlfriend or just some woman who happened to be in the same vague general area as I.

To my way of thinking, there is a such thing as manners and ettiquete just as there is a such thing as a bad seed. They were not displaying proper manners or ettiquete. Under these circumstances I believe these bad seeds ought to be physically taught the value of civility. My post was as much to point out the wrongheaded thinking that has destroyed any notion of honor and justice in this nation, all humorous intent aside. We have for too long allowed iniquitous behaviour to go unchecked, just as we have for too long stood silent while all our freedoms are made privileges and our privileges denied.

By what reasoning should Drjones be forced to abstain from upholding his dignity and defending his lady's honor? At what point did we, as a society, decide that the good natured and peaceable ought to live in dread of the violent and antisocial? Our society is weaker for it, more rude, less safe and certainly more violent. No man who would call himself a gentlemen should stand for it. This is no America I recognize.

 

[Drjones]

R127:

I could not possibly agree more with what you just said.

Please stick around.

It will be wonderful to have you on these forums.

WELCOME!!!

 

[R127]

Thank you, Drjones. However I feel it is only fair to warn you that I am old fashioned and at times quite uncompromising on matters of principle. In the words of a famous movie drill sergeant, "Because I am hard you will not like me!"

To me, the real question is what do you stand for? If you stand for a 9-5 workday and slipping under the radar, that's fine. Unfortunately that is the sort of thinking that has landed us in this mess we have today. I'd argue there is more to life, and more to living, than merely surviving for another day... but this post isn't so much about principles or politics. This is tactics.

First, forget about quickdraw. You will either have plenty of warning, hence plenty of time, to draw or your attackers will be on you before you realize it. That's not to say don't practice rapid presentation, but don't think you're going to outdraw someone who attacks without warning. Understanding that, get some good unarmed skills. Either your weapon will be in hand when you need it or you will need to fend off at least one attacker before drawing your weapon. This is general advice.

Most determined defenders with a minimum of training can fend off one, two, maybe even up to three attackers at a time. No man, unarmed, can fight off 8 others. Not without some wildly imaginative setup, such as a 7-foot tall shootfighter Vs 8 pacifist midgets. Faced with 8 healthy male attackers of average stature, even if they are unarmed, you have little choice but to run.

You will not, however, simply run for your life as fast as you can and hope to lose your attackers in a built-up area. One of them, at least, will be faster than you. All he has to do is grab your collar and the rest will be upon you. Instead you will sprint, take off like a shot! The fastest of the group, both in terms of groundspeed and reflexes, will be first nipping at your heels. If you are lucky it will be only one or two. In the most usual circumstance these frontrunners would be upon you in a matter of seconds, followed shortly by their companions, but remember you are not simply running away. You have a plan. As soon as you have put a little distance between yourself and the main group and the fastest are closing quick you will stop dead in your tracks, turn to face your onrushing assailant, and meet him with a well-placed blow to the head. His own momentum combined with the force of your strike will most often put him down, anyone keeping pace with him will be unable to react in time to avoid being dealt with similarly.

If you are lucky, that should be enough. Never rely on luck alone, instead take flight once more. Rinse, wash, repeat. There are only 3 possible outcomes; the first is your pursuers will lose their nerve and call off the hunt. In the second case they may recognize their vulnerability and proceed in a line abreast formation at a common speed. In this scenario you have only to outrun the slower surviving members of the group. Or outfight them. The final possibility is you may run out of road, in which case you ought to menace your pursuers with an unexpected charge and the most fierce warcry you can muster, hoping to break through their lines or at the very least bowl over one or two attackers before the general melee ensues.

Aside from unleashing a torrent of lead from your favorite sidearm, this is the only reliable means of engaging a numerically superior enemy I have found.

Oh, during all this time your girlfriend ought to have jumped or been lovingly tossed off the pier, as was earlier suggested. She'll last longer against any current or undertow than she will against even half the attackers. You can retrieve her later, after you have drawn off the threat. True, if you joined her for a swim they may just gloat and walk off, leaving your hide, if not your pride, intact. Or they may decide to jump in and drown you. Or shoot you, or throw rocks and anything else at hand. The thing to consider is the longterm effect. If all good and peaceable persons bow submissively at every villain's sneer are we not encouraging villainous behaviour? If aggression is met with pain and injury, would not these same villains become rather disenchanted with villainous pursuits?

Naturally you companion is far better off on terra firma if at all possible, most especially if the fall is great or the waters rough. If she cannot safely retreat or be retreated, you by no means should leave her side. In this case you mustn't let your attackers push you up against any wall or railing, and you cannot give the the opportunity to throw or push you over the edge. Meet them with the previously mentioned war-whoop and charge! Tackle at least one of them, attack the rest with vigorous brutality; you can expect no quarter so give none. Break through their lines and hope your companion has presence of mind to either make her escape or join the fight, according to her means and temperment.

All this psychological nonsense will get you nowhere. They see you as a prey species, otherwise they would not have confronted you in the first place. These "catcalls" are a confrontation, make no mistake about that. They are demanding a submissive response. Anything other than a submissive response and you will be more aggressively confronted. Of course, if they are in the mood they may decide to harvest their submissive prey anyway. If you do say anything non-submissive, oddly enough they will start babbling on and on about how you are disrespecting them. Don't listen to them, they don't know what they are saying, have no concept of respect or honor and cannot be reasoned with. You will only confuse yourself. Let their words be lost in the background noise. This shouldn't be difficult, most of them are barely capable of speaking anything you'd recognize as English, or even language. The only way to show them you are not a victim is through a superior capacity for physical violence. It is all they understand.

8 men against one and his woman is as clear a case of imminent great bodily harm or death as there has ever been. If you fear the legal system, ask yourself what happened to make that so? What sort of people would willingly submit to such a system? In any case the old adage of "better judged by twelve than carried by six" applies. Your sidearm is best against such odds. Do try and wear a vest, even a light one that provides only partial cover, and put yourself between your lady and harm's way. That is, after all, your solemn duty as a man of good character.

If you also determine it is your duty to keep the ruffians in check, if you find yourself alone or in better company for such undertakings, it is quite easy to provoke you harassers into an unjustified attack. Non-initiation is the rule in most areas. Contact is considered initiation. When you find a gaggle of toughs marking their territory, tell them you don't appreciate what they've said or done in any way you choose so long as it is polite. They know nothing of courtesy but they will recognize a challenge. They will come uncomfortably close to you and chatter something about "disrespect." Say something courteous and polite again. You will then find yourself in a situation anglers anounce with the proclamation of "Fish on!" After all, if we have a catch-and-release court system shouldn't we all be fishermen?

 

[lostdog]

Idea.........

Here it is from the old puppy...I'm a 22 yr old male, so i'm in the dating scene quite a bit.

This is what I would have done:Leaned in to the lady and said something like " Those guys are out with themselves...I am out with a beautiful girl...they seem a little envious" Then I would have wanved at them rather sheepishly and ig nored them, while watching them at the same time. If it were to go from "yellow" to "orange" them it would probly end up with 2 of them distracting you and 6 of them taking your girl.

I would have used various verbal commands.....such as "may I help you gentelmen?"......."I think that's close enough"........."Stop right there(at 30 feet)"........."I think you should leave/we'll be leaving now(while presenting weapon)".....and then finally" Please don't make me use leathal force/shoot you" All the while moving away from the threat, seeking a superior position, and keeping a protective stance as far as the lady is concerned.

The place I Go from tacfull to Tactical is about 30ft, and that is pretty much the standard now. At that point I act on the descions i have already made to increase force. The lady shuold also have beeen made aware of your mine-set when you leaned in for the above statement....let's just hope that you have enough ammo, or in the case of most my dates, is carrying also.

 

[Glamdring]

Eight vs one(2?) are very serious odds. Whatever you do you DON'T want to act weak. That would only encourage them.

Also if things go bad the only way you can defeat 8 opponents in the real world is by beating them mentally.

Exact response would depend on specifics of situation. But my list would be something like this in order of what I would try first.

1. Try to leave or at least secure better situation by moving to cover or someplace that would let me put barrier between them and us. Could be a door, a building, etc. Ideally would also give secure exit (ie able to leave without confronting them). Often simply taking the "high ground" tactically will take a lot of snort out of goblins. Most are looking for easy prey.

If that failed then try to create exit thru them.

2. Command voice with simple four letter words. With a lot of sincere rage in my voice.

3. Pepper spray if available.

I have to admit I wouldn't be likely to try number 4 with a female friend to protect. If solo or with certain buddies I might.

4. Quick knee to groin (or other simple fast high pain technique) of closest or most aggressive person.

Note this is based on them only being on one side of me, if they start flanking or surrounding me I would consider that the start of violent action, when 8 people are involved, and start a counter attack immediatly with pepper spray, impact weapon, or empty hands at the least.

 

[Drjones]

Thank you, Drjones. However I feel it is only fair to warn you that I am old fashioned and at times quite uncompromising on matters of principle. In the words of a famous movie drill sergeant, "Because I am hard you will not like me!"

I do not believe that anything of importance has ever been accomplished by men who compromise their principles.

If you are hard on me, at times I may not like you, but in the end I will thank you.

I know that much...

Thank you again for your post and advice.

 

[David N]

Obviously I don't know what the law is where you live. In Vermont you're allowed to use deadly force if you are attacked by 3 or more people, regardless if they're armed or not.

 

[Drjones]

Neveravictim:

Might I inquire as to the origin of your name?

 

[Oleg Volk]

The regrettable frequency of date rape causes many young women to feel more comfortable with public "closeness" than going back to his or her place because it is safer for her in some aspects.

One more reason to date women who can fight you or anyone else, if necessary. The more confident your date is, the safer YOU are from her and vice versa.

As for eight vs. two, I think experts recommend stacking the threats in a line. Most critters, even un-versed in guns, ought to recognize presentation positin as "something ain't right with this here prey" and withdraw.

 

[Gus Dddysgrl]

As a girl living in the "ghetto" all my life I am usually the one who isn't scared. I have had several guys come to my house and be scared to stay too long especially late at night. Most people ask if it's safe.

Question what did your girl think? Was she scared, offended, ticked off, bothered at all? Many girls are, but I know a few who like the attention(they are strange). I however don't care. It goes in one ear and out the other usually. I have lived in the same house for the last 14 years and guys still say things like "I've never seen you around here." "What's a girl like you doing here?" "Hey good lookin'!" and much more that isn't really appropriate.

Many of my girlfriends get freaked out and later ask me doesn't that bother you? Well not really I often just ignore them. I have on occasion been nice and talked to them, and even just been like yeah whatever keep your pants on jerk. Attitude is everything. I walk the walk. Yes there is a ghetto walk and it is quite intimidating. Most guys will yell things, but if the walk is mastered they don't do anything. Confidence is also key. Walking head up, shoulders back and look them in the eye is usually a sign you aren't gonna be easily taken. Most gangs like easy targets unless they are life gangers and are much older.

So yeah confidence and attitude. Gotta have em.

Squirt

 

[Drjones]

Question what did your girl think?

Honestly? I don't know.

She didn't think anything of it at the time, but I don't know if it ever entered her mind that something seriously bad *could* have happened.

I just don't know her that well yet.

Don't worry....I'll change that...

 

[sm]

Probably tell the date she might be getting wet, My eyes watching hands and firm voice with my hand close to my gun. "Gentlemen, lets see them hands, we were just leaving".

Cards are dealt , play the hand.

I'm, with Denny, I wouldn't have been there in the first place. Even as teenager I didn't-per se. Theaters had balconies , the drive-ins, had the family and dating areas, and when we went parking-the lane's were such other couples kept watch on each other. I had a gun even back then. Been known to have a date bring her own. Ushers, and cops kept watch, sometimes became nosey. I knew the demise of balconies and drive-ins would result in this.

Times may have been different for me back then, but a guy was held pretty responsible for his date. Even if daddy knew what was up , he suggested one pay attention. Today its perhaps more important to be SA. I have even had a daddy loan me gun when his daugher and I were going to be at the all night drive-in. Talk of riots going on at the time.

Not ragging on you DRjones, just being honest.

 

[Drjones]

Times may have been different for me back then, but a guy was held pretty responsible for his date.

I agree completely that a man SHOULD be responsible for his dates' safety.

 

[sm]

Drjones

I appreciate your understanding, you contribute much to this forum. I have made poor choices, put myself in a bad way--and in no way am I perfect. I have a lot to learn, I make mistakes.

It took guts for you to share. One of the things this forum does is teach responsiblity. You did just that, you made us think, and used a portion of gray matter that may have become complacent.

You perhaps may have saved a lurker/member a bad experience. Thanks and best to you sir.
'73

 

[Drjones]

Thank you for the kind words, re.

I consider you to be one of the most valuable members on this forum.



Too bad we don't have a beer smilie like on GT!

 

[The Tengu]

If you haven't done so, I highly recommend that all of you read the GlockTalk posts by RoadRep in the link posted above.

Try putting yourselves in his shoes, and re-evaluate what you currently think will happen if you ever have to use deadly force in defense of your life or the lives of your loved ones.

 

[sm]

I have read RoadRep on GT. It is a must read and I have had others read it. In fact I used it with new CCW students.

I was raised in -and- spent a lot of years in a business where one had to pay attention. This is before I knew about Situational awareness and color codes.

The reality is; bad things happen to good people. People many times don't think about situations until it is too late,or happens to others. People have to start somewhere with this re-education , Drjones posting , this forum , and others sharing (good or bad choices) are learning tools and reminders.

I have run red lights, gone the wrong way on a one way street, broke out in a dead run, screaming fire to get attention. These were situations I thought I had taken reasonable steps to avoid.

Bad things happen to good people, of no fault of their own. Sales rep blabs about what you do, and your followed. You come home and someone has broken in the back window, wanting you to go back and open a safe.

I'm very secure about my masculinity, but this feller ain't too proud to beat feet and yell fire to get attention when needed. Name of the game is Survival, rib me, criticize me, at least I'm in one pc to be picked on.

Drjones just gave everyone a heads up. IMO

 

[Don Gwinn]

I didn't read much of the last two pages, but here are a couple of things I thought should be clarified.

1. Denny Hansen probably does not need a lecture on why one should be armed at all times or the unpredictability of danger. It's good that you know this, but he probably knows it too. Were you armed?

2. Denny's point had nothing to do with being armed or unarmed. He was suggesting that you avoid situations you know to be dangerous. All alone on a deserted pier at night is dangerous. Out on the pier, so that you have only one way to leave, is especially so. Now, no one really avoids dangerous situations all the time, but it's good to make the effort. Saying "I can't predict when danger will come, so I might as well just hang out on a deserted pier at night in a large city" doesn't hold water. Yes, you can be attacked anywhere, but that doesn't mean you shoul deliberately put yourself in a place where you're more likely to be attacked.

3. My wife would stay behind me and not interfere, on a pier or if otherwise bottled up. However, at any other time, she knows her role is to run for help, preferably with me between them and her. I cover her escape and then do whatever I think best. The one who is armed and has some idea of what he is doing has a better chance without the other than with her. Now, if my wife had the same interests as Runt or Kaylee, the plan would be different. But she doesn't, bless her heart, and has no place in a fight.

If she makes it, then help is on the way and she is presumably a bit safer. If they pursue her, I will try to pursue myself or fight my way to her. Although our attackers may be able outrun us both, I'm faster than she is and can catch up if I have to. All of this would work better with a gun, but it's a felony to carry one here and I choose not to. I am never, however, unarmed.

I'm sure there are even more holes in this plan than I've thought of in the last few years, but it's the best I've come up with. Maybe after more training it will change.