So you've got 'im at gunpoint...

[Mike Irwin]

"You're in a world of hurt, because the responding officers now have only the word of the lying felon to go by, and if you're the one with a gun in your hand... get the picture?"

Until the police start checking the registered owner of the residence, your driver's license, utility bills, etc.

Won't take long to sort that out.

He won't get away.

 

[Mark Benningfield]

Make My Day

Hello All.

That's what we call it here in Oklahoma. If he breaks into your house, he's paid for. You have an affirmative defense from criminal AND civil complaints. In this situation, if the BG did not instantly and decisively take steps to assure me of his compliant surrender when confronted, then he'd be a goner. Even after he threw himself to the floor, arms and legs akimbo, begging me not to kill him, if he so much as twitched while I was calling the cops then, again, goner city. Breaking into my house was his play; getting out of it alive is his problem, not mine.

 

[TERRY8m]

Over 30 years ago,I shot a man in our house, well, mostly in our house, his right leg was still in the window sill.
Dad, on business trip, Mom in kitchen, 3 little brothers all over the house, me 13 years old with orders from Dad. Got the sawed- off and gave him 1 barrel of low brass #9 from about 20-25 ft.
He made it out the window, while I got everyone out the front door to the neighbor. The cops got him 2 hours later in a ditch, his left leg almost had to be amputated. 2 days after Dad came home, I got my first handgun, a model 25 Smith, along with some intense training.
The cop's comments, shoulda' aimed at his head. Even got outa' school 2 days for the trial.
He dropped some kind of old cut off bayonette on the bathroom floor on his way out the window, so no legal hassles at all.

Anyone breaks in my door or comes thru a window gets one look, they ain't family, they're an escaped mass murderer.
Our bedrooms have mini spotlights pointing away from the beds, hooked to clappers, so you cab get a good look and or sight picture.
Anyone stupid or evil enough to come into a dark house at night is up to no good and of no loss to the gene pool.

 

[Diesle]

Page speaks to this matter. >> http://www.plusp.com/classroom/lesson12.php

I think your going to be in a world of if you shoot an unarmed person regardless of whether or not their in your home.

Under ideal circumstances, Ill do my best to fully assess any situation I’m ever in and attempt to pursue every possible action other than discharging my weapon.

If your rational enough to know that the trespasser is unarmed, your rational enough to attempt to defuse the situation before you turn your life and someone else’s life upside down.

Isnt that one of the inherent responsibilities of gun ownership?

Diesle

 

[Matthew Courtney]

Originally posted by Diesle
Page speaks to this matter. >> http://www.plusp.com/classroom/lesson12.php

I think your going to be in a world of if you shoot an unarmed person regardless of whether or not their in your home.

Under ideal circumstances, Ill do my best to fully assess any situation I’m ever in and attempt to pursue every possible action other than discharging my weapon.

If your rational enough to know that the trespasser is unarmed, your rational enough to attempt to defuse the situation before you turn your life and someone else’s life upside down.

Isnt that one of the inherent responsibilities of gun ownership?

Diesle

Tressspasser? Uh, how did they come through the door? By accident? Or by Felony? Those sorts of accidents are felonious in most states. It's night-time right? How can I know to what degree this proven violent felon is armed? I should take his word? Since he has done so much to prove his goodness so far? If a man chooses to live within the vagaries of state administered justice, then he surely chooses to die by the hand of one who seeks only to be safe from his sort. Both may continue their paths as reasonable for them considering that neither may be trusted, and either may be shot for endangering the worthy.

 

[labgrade]

Had a great reply posted, ready to push the button & all was lost due to pushing too many "delete page" buttons while doing the quick research ... sigh. A retry .....

PlusP's page is enlightening in that they'll try to scare you enough to buy their training. It's nothing you can't get mostly on your own - especially legal-wise.

Their: "Yes, there are "make my day" laws, but the gun writers don't tell you about the folks in jail or court for trying to take advantage of such laws." Sigh. Who would?

Colorado statutes state, in: 18-1-703, 18-1704, 18-1-704.5 (the Make My Day Law), 18-1-705, & 18-1-706 enough to be very enlightening.

Obviously, nothing should be construed to allow one to murder - of course.

Knowing the law is a good start on what your "rights" are & how to go about further ensuring your safety.

 

[Jeff OTMG]

Let me get this straight, the assumption is that I am not going to shoot someone breaking into my house. Now what alternate universe does this happen in?

 

[dave]

Originally posted by cheygriz

Now the problem! If he tells you to take a flying **** at a rolling donut, and walks away, there isn't a damn thing you can do. If he's trying to escape, you cannot legally (or morally) shoot him.

Well chey, I don't know about that.

Not trying to pick a fight, just a different point of view. I'll not go into whether it's legal or not, to many different laws in to many different states. Though I do suggest that one should follow the law in these cases. As has been stated, a lot of bad stuff can happen to one if he/she doesn't.

But, as for it being moral or not to shoot someone who is unarmed, because they break into one's home. I don't know. I suppose it would depend on one's morals wouldn't it? I mean, not everyone believes in, or lives by, the same code.

Would I shoot someone because they had entered my home, when I or my family was there, if he was not armed? I'm not sure. If I could, I would prefer to have the police take him into custody. But if he just blew me off, when told to stay put, and made clear his intention to simply walk off? **sigh** I may indeed shoot him.

Now, I don't say that in a "tough guy" way. In fact I would most likely be afraid. Afraid he would come back. I would be afraid that he may come back armed, or when I'm not there and my family was, or with a few friends. The fact that he was brave (foolish?) enough to break in the first time, and try to leave while at gun point, tells me several things about him. None of them good.

Maybe I would see it as making the only choice that HE gave me. Maybe I would see it as justifiable for any number of reasons. Maybe any the reasons I could come up with would serve only to make me FEEL justified. I just don't know. Just goes to show how heady all this can be.

But I do know one thing. Whatever I do, if I feel it is done to protect my family or myself, and if I feel it is the only option left to me that would insure, without doubt, that protection, I would see as "moral". I don't like the thought, but if I am forced to risk doing harm to my family or to my morals.............................my morals had better run for cover. Hopefully, I can make it through life with both unharmed.

Just another point of view.

 

[Pendragon]

Well, I live in a nice area of Sacramento, on an isolated street that does not get much traffic.

We keep all of our doors locked at all times.

That said, anyone who is in my house and does not belong there most likely broke in. (unless we were careless).

I have a 1 year old son and my wife is a nursing mother.

I think that if I see somoene, I am going to presume I should shoot them. There are very few places where I could be and not be about 1 second away from having the guy in my face, so if he does not want to get shot, he better submit - and do it overtly and quickly.

I do not want to shoot anyone, and I dont believe that you should just shoot someone who walks into your house - but I believe that the margin of discretion is extremely narrow and I think you should err on the side of protecting your family.

Even if it is some idiot who lost his way, I think a man holding his baby and hugging his wife would make for a pretty sympathetic news conference.

 

[Bob A]

Wow, where do you start? I've heard it all, and been with cops at scenes like this. I even Had a detective tell me to put a kitchen knife in the intruder's very dead hand after I reload. All hyperbole aside, I think the cop in me would take over and assess my target before firing. Tennessee V. Garner says we can't shoot fleeing felons unless we have a reasonable belief that they are a clear and present danger to the public. Even then, I don't think burglary, even with intent, qualifies. But think about this.

1. You cannot tell without a fairly thorough search whether a person is armed, and I doubt a burglar will submit to this from a homeowner.

2. You are assuming he is alone. This is often not the case.

3. You let him flee, but how do you know where he went? How do you know he won't come back as soon as the police leave and attack you? No way to tell what goes through the mind of a criminal unless it was a 9mm round you just fired.

4. Pointing a gun at somebody who is not an obvious threat to your safety (or another person's) is, in some states, aggravated asssault and you can be charged. This is true of detaining him also. In VA any citizen can detain an adult they witness commit a felony, but only LE can detain juveniles.

5. Is there a racial angle some nitwit lawyer can exploit? Some way of making it look as if you were looking for trouble? Ladies and gentlemen, the defendant kept a LOADED pistol by the bed, hoping for some poor slob to break in so he could be a hero.

All that said, I keep a flashlight and a phone with/near my gun. If I were armed and suprised an intruder, I think (hope) I would have enough presence of mind to assess whether he is an imminent threat, and act accordingly.

What I envision is sighting him in, and telling him to leave/run. If he does... call the police and account for family members. If he doesn't run... I think I'd probably assume he means to try to take my weapon from me and I'd aim center mass. Then I would call police and account for family members. If they couldn't find a weapon, I'd let the cops know the last thing he said, which of course was: "I'm gonna shove that gun up your ***!" whether he really said that or not.

You may have some problems with some hot shot DA or the family of the intruder depending on where you live, but this is the reality of life in America, and it will depend a lot on where you live. When in Rome...

If you aren't prepared to deal with that, you should rethink having a firearm.

 

[GhostShooter]

After reading all of the valuable information on this thread I tried to create a truly profound post to help all of those out there....but....since I think everything has been said about as well as it can be (by people much wiser than I) I'll keep my .02 short and sweet. If someone breaks into your house regardless of reason and whatever action you take secures your family.... You did good. You and your family get to see the sunrise tomorrow. In the end that's all that matters.


P.S.
As for the original question. You catch him kicking in the door or window, give one verbal warning. If he doesn't comply as soon as the door is kicked in or the windows is broke, stop the threat. If you catch him in the house, imho he's bought and paid for. I remember Ayoob talking about how quickly a BG can spin and fire in poor visibility before the GG can react.

 

[Drjones]

I remember Ayoob talking about how quickly a BG can spin and fire in poor visibility before the GG can react.

AMEN!

Question: Where can I research the laws pertaining to shooting home intruders in the state of CA?

Thank you all for wonderful posts!!!

 

[Drjones]

HEY! What happened to the "quote" button?????

 

[Kevlarman]

Drjones, I suggest you go to your local gunshop and pick up a book called "How to Own A Gun and Saty Out of Jail," by John Machtinger. It's updated every year, and contains important information on California gun laws.

Chapter 5 is titled "When can you shoot someone in self defense?"
There's a small section on home protection. I'll quote:

The California legislature has enacted a law that helps people in their homes defend themselves from intruders while lessening the fear of legal consequences. This law gives the resident the benefote of the doubt and establishes a presumption that the very act of forced entry is a threat to the life and limb of the homeowner or apartment dweller.

When you are in your residence and you shoot an intruder, you are presumed to have a reasonable fear of imminent danger or death or great bodily injury if three elements are present:

1. An intruder unlawfully and forcibly enters your residence, or has unlawfully forcibly entered your residence.

2. The intruder is someone who is not a member of the family or the household.

3. You know or have reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry has occured.

If the above three elements are true, you are presumed to have a reasonable fear of imminent danger or death or great bodily injury to yourself, your family, or a household member when you shoot the intruder. When you have a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily injury, you are entitled to use deadly force in self-defennse, thus yuor use of deadly force is presumed to be reasonable as well.

The effect of the home defense presumption is that the district attorney has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that you did not have reasonable fear when you pulled the trigger. (Remember, you muse also have had an actual, honest fear.)

If you don't meet the requirements for this presumption because, for example, there was no forced entry or the attacker was a household member, this doesn't mean that you can't prove self-defense. It just means you can't take advantage of the presumption of reasonable fear. You must show enough evidence in court that you had a reasonable fear of imminent danger of death or great bodily injury from an unlawful attack to convince the jury that you actedin proper self-defense.

The end of the chapter has footnotes in regards to this, and they point to California penal code section 198.5. California penal code section 198.5

 

[JPM70535]

Cover the BG but unless he makes an agressive move towards you or your family, dont shoot. Invite him to leave. You are not a LEO and if you order the BG to go prone or whatever, you have no way of forceing him to comply, unless you have physical backup. If he makes any overt move then do what you have to doand remember the 21 ft. rule, he can cover that distance in less time than it takes you to say stop, dont move or I'll shoot.



Those found here at night will be found here in the morning!!!

 

[El Rojo]

To the original question, I wouldn't have him call. For the reasons stated above about him being able to make up a story. If you can get a hold of the phone, all it takes is about 5 seconds to dial and yell, "Intruder in my house, send help now!" They know where you live. I wouldn't tell him to leave, I would just tell him if he moves, I am going to consider that a threat on my life and I am going to shoot him to stop him. And depending on the situation, I might just do that. I am not in a big hurry to shoot someone. The legal hassle that occurs once that bullet hits flesh is enough to make me consider other options if they are available. If he calmly walks out the door, I would retreat back to my bedroom and barricade my self in. Then again, I might shoot him. Who knows.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

We are not qualified or have the facilities for taking prisoners in our home. We are not qualified to negotiate with intruders who are seen as being a direct threat to our safety. We don't have time to waste trying to hold one at gunpoint, dial a friggin' phone, and still be able to verify that the one intruder is actually alone and unarmed. By being an intruder in our home, he has already demonstrated aggression towards the family. We are under no obligation to give any sort of warning nor do we feel it necessary for an intruder to receive any sort of warning. We live in Texas and there is plenty of case law to support whatever actions we deem necessary to secure the safety of the family from an intruder. It sucks to be him if the intruder doesn't have a good enough grasp of the law to understand the risks he voluntarily takes when being an intruder in somebody else's home.

 

[roscoe]

One night about 15 years ago, while living in the inner city, I came down to the living room to see that someone had tried the front door, come in, and was eating the Christmas cookies off the piano.

He was just some homeless guy, and no one was about to shoot him. After all, it was Christmas. I am sure that if we had shot him the local PD would have taken a dim view of it. I think it is worth taking that extra split second to make sure someone is a threat.

I don't know why the front door was unlocked, but all it takes is someone (like a child) forgetting to turn the bolt. Not every act of trespassing is forcible entry.

 

[cheygriz]

In all 50 states, you will go to jail if you shoot an unarmed man in the back. Period!

If he's laying on the floor, and you shoot him, you'd better be able to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he posed a real and immediate threat to life or limb.

In 20 years of law enforcement I've heard a lot of macho talk, but seen precious litttle of it in action. If the perp is a real and immediate threat to you or another innocent person, you are fully justified in using lethal force. Otherwise, forget it!

Those of you that have never had to deal with taking a life, or never had to try to help a fellow officer deal with it, have no idea how traumatic it can be, even when very obviously justified.

The ideal situation (belivet it or not) is one where there is no physical harm to you, or anyone else. Some of the trigger-happy talk on this thread scares the hell out of me. Taking a human life is an extremely serious action under any circumstances. Shooting unarmed people in the back is murder, pure and simple.

Some of the posts that I've read on this thread are the exact arguments that the anti-gunners are trying to use as an excuse to disarm all of us.

Think about it, folks! This is a great place to vent your frustrations about the criminal justice system and police protection, or lack thereof. But try not to let that venting give our enemies ammunition to use against us.

 

[Diesle]

Some of the trigger-happy talk on this thread scares the hell out of me.

No kidding!!!!!

Really makes it sound like there are some very callous, 'ready-to-get-it-on' gun owners out there. The sort that fall beautifully into any anti's picture of 'America the Armed and Hair Triggered'.

Most of us don’t live in rural Texas where, evidently the fastest gun still always wins.

Please... Think, as well as you can, before you act. IMO, you in jail or financily or socialy ruined is about as good for your family as you dead.

Diesle

 

[stevie_d_64]

Not to brag...

But in a simple senario like this, you should be prepared to do a great many different things to resolve the situation...

Number one (but certainly not the first option in this case)...Shoot...

Number two, move to a phone and make the call...Or in my case, my wife makes the call in the other room (out of sight from me and the BG's) I give her either the under diress signal, or the proceed signal to make the call and have her firearm at the ready, just in case...We never see the need to practice or talk about it much, just make sure we are always on the same page...

Number three, in the process of controlling the situation the BG decides to do something stupid, like get up and flee...I can venture to say that by that time they decide to do that (and this is not the bragging part) the L.E. in my nieghborhood are extremely quick on the response, and since they know me, they know in this instance I am not inviteing them over for a social call...

This one was fairly easy...If the BG leaves, he's covered till he exits the house, and by that time he might be walking right into Pct. 2 deputies...And thats fine by me...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

No law in Texas about location of shooting on the body (back, front, side, etc.). Location is irrelevant so long as lethal force use was justifiable. If the intruder is in my house, he is a threat. No problem with that aspect and the law. Combine that with the fact that I am in fear for my life or t he lives of family members, combined with a claim of furtive movenment on behalf of the intruder and there is no problem. Furtive movement isn't going to be hard to justify as few bad guys opt to stay still.

I will gladly take my chances with the courts on something like this as opposed to taking my chances that the bad guy in my home really is unarmed, alone, and not stoned out of his mind on something like PCP where he isn't capable of responding to lawful commands in a reasonable manner. That is a no brainer.

As noted above, we don't do prisoners. I may let the guy flee, but there is no reason in hell that I should attempt to control an intruder in my own home. Why would I want to keep that person in close proximity to me or my family?

 

[stevie_d_64]

Me? Trigger happy, and in rural Texas?

Nahhhh,

If you are not prepared, to accept responsibility and be accountable for your actions, they yes, maybe you should either get more training, or give it up...

Last time I looked, I see urban sprawl all around me where I live now, and I happen to live in the area where the ratio of concealed handgun permit holders to non permit holders is the highest...Does that make us a more dangerous area to ply the criminal trade??? Yes it does...

Does that mean we shoot first and get asked questions later??? Nope...

What does happen is people get shot by the BG's through the door more in this area than not...

Look up the case of Jonathan Barrica...This kid got shot at his home, one block over from where I live now...That was about two years ago, and its still unsolved...

So before folks go raggin on the supposed way Texas is sooo loose on folks who defend themselves by these means, just remember, it doesn't matter where you live...

People used to be told that you had to go find trouble...Nowadays, trouble comes and finds you...

But with that said, it doesn't mean we can't live good lives and do the things we want with that gift...

 

[Matthew Courtney]

If he's laying on the floor, and you shoot him, you'd better be able to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he posed a real and immediate threat to life or limb.

Cheygriz, you may know the law in your area, but you don't know it in mine.

§20. Justifiable homicide
A homicide is justifiable:

(1) When committed in self-defense by one who reasonably believes that he is in imminent danger of losing his life or receiving great bodily harm and that the killing is necessary to save himself from that danger.

(2) When committed for the purpose of preventing a violent or forcible felony involving danger to life or of great bodily harm by one who reasonably believes that such an offense is about to be committed and that such action is necessary for its prevention. The circumstances must be sufficient to excite the fear of a reasonable person that there would be serious danger to his own life or person if he attempted to prevent the felony without the killing.

(3) When committed against a person whom one reasonably believes to be likely to use any unlawful force against a person present in a dwelling or a place of business, or when committed against a person whom one reasonably believes is attempting to use any unlawful force against a person present in a motor vehicle as defined in R.S. 32:1(40), while committing or attempting to commit a burglary or robbery of such dwelling, business, or motor vehicle. The homicide shall be justifiable even though the person does not retreat from the encounter.

(4) When committed by a person lawfully inside a dwelling, a place of business, or a motor vehicle as defined in R.S. 32:1(40), against a person who is attempting to make an unlawful entry into the dwelling, place of business, or motor vehicle, or who has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, place of business, or motor vehicle, and the person committing the homicide reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the entry or to compel the intruder to leave the premises or motor vehicle. The homicide shall be justifiable even though the person committing the homicide does not retreat from the encounter.

Added by Acts 1976, No. 655,§ 1. Amended by Acts 1977, No. 392,§ 1; Acts 1983, No. 234,§ 1; Acts 1993, No. 516,§ 1; Acts 1997, No. 1378,§ 1.

In Louisiana, if one believes the intruder is likely to use any unlawful force against anyone in the residence, deadly force is justified. It is also specifically justified if the intruder fails to respond to a command to leave.

 

[telewinz]

I will conduct myself as a responsible citizen. If possible I will call 911 and have my gun on the criminal. If I or my family are in real danger from the criminal I will use what force is required to protect ourselves. I am not John Wayne nor a judge and jury. Nor do I have a secret desire to be.