Sold a pistol at a gun show- concerns

[igotta40]

I got rid of a Jiminez 9mm my Dad bought in Florida. It was a piece of junk. I think he registered it in New Jersey. He lives in NJ and winters in FL. He gifted it to me. I sold it at a table at a gun show in Houston, but didn't ask if the vendor has a FFL. Cash transaction, no paperwork, no bill of sale. I don't have the serial number of the gun.

Will Dad have an issue? Does he need to "un register" that gun in New Jersey? If so. how?

 

[NavyLCDR]

The first question is whether you or not you and your dad were residents of the same state when he gifted the gun to you? If you were not residents of the same state when the gift took place, if the gun did not go through an FFL, that was the first law broken.

Second, looks like you are now a resident of Texas? If you are a resident of Texas, it does not matter if the recipient at the gun show had an FFL or not. In Texas, and by Federal law, transfer of a pistol between residents of the same state (Texas in this case) do not require an FFL transfer.

Finally, I don't think New Jersey has any requirement to report handguns leaving New Jersey.

 

[Nickel Plated]

If he did register it in NJ and lived in NJ when he gave it to you then he may possibly have had to un-register it. Most places with registration require you to inform the authorities when you relinquish possession of the gun either by selling, losing, or having it stolen. You would have to check NJ laws specifically for that.
If the gun ends up at a crime scene somewhere or otherwise in police custody (Jimenez 9s tend to do that sometimes) and gets traced back to NJ. The NJ authorities might be very curious what a gun that's still registered to your father is doing in the waistband of some thug in Baltimore. At that point, pretty much any excuse he gives will get him in trouble to one degree or another.

 

[wildbilll]

If at the time of the transaction the OP was a resident of Texas, it would be very difficult for New Jersey to pursue a criminal charge for not telling them the gun is sold. There is nothing that says a N.J. resident can't take their gun with them when they leave the state, and once the person has left the state, they are of course free to never return.

 

[NavyLCDR]

There is nothing that says a N.J. resident can't take their gun with them when they leave the state, and once the person has left the state, they are of course free to never return.

Not only free to never return, but encouraged to never return to New Jersey!

 

[PabloJ]

If the gun is used in a crime and is traced they will knock on dad's door. He will tell them he gave it to you so they will come talk to you. You have no paperwork proving you sold the gun. Glad I'm not you.

 

[CatManDo]

You have nothing to worry about, they (BATF) can't even find the guns they lost in Mexico.

 

[HankR]

You have no paperwork proving you sold the gun. Glad I'm not you.

Not really a big deal out here in free America. I'm glad I don't live in a place where such a paper trail is required.

As others have mentioned, the transaction from dad to son might violate federal law, unless they lived in the same state at the time of the transaction.

 

[Ryanxia]

EDIT: Removed incorrect statement. My apologies.

Secondly, if what others have said is true and your state is like mine where private transfers are legal between residents, as long as the person you sold it to was a same state resident and you had no reason to believe he was prohibited then you're all set.

Either way, if you ever get a knock best policy is 'I got rid of it, don't remember to who, it was a legal sale at the time.'

 

[CoRoMo]

The first question is whether you or not you and your dad were residents of the same state when he gifted the gun to you? If you were not residents of the same state when the gift took place, if the gun did not go through an FFL, that was the first law broken.

This is incorrect. A person may GIFT (not sell) a handgun to a family member in another state without going through an FFL. Just make sure if ever asked that he GAVE it to you.

I don't believe you are at all right. But in an effort to give you the benefit of doubt, please, please, cite the notion that a non-licensee can transfer a handgun to another non-licensee when neither is a resident of the others' state.

Because here's the truth...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8991784&postcount=11
The whole federal law story on interstate transfers of firearms (not including the rules for those with Curio and Relic licenses and the subject of dual residency):

• Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.).
  
  
• In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.
  
  
• In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.C] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.
  
  
• There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.
  
  
• The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).
  
  
• Here's what the statutes say:

18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

...

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

....

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
...

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

(B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

...

 

[Frank Ettin]

...A person may GIFT (not sell) a handgun to a family member in another state without going through an FFL. ...

Wrong -- 100% wrong -- completely wrong.

I'd lay it all out for you, but CoRoMo already has -- quoting one of my past posts on the subject.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

If the gun is used in a crime and is traced they will knock on dad's door. He will tell them he gave it to you so they will come talk to you. You have no paperwork proving you sold the gun. Glad I'm not you.

Nonsense. There is nothing wrong with the TX private transaction and the OP has no liability from it. My only concern would be whether the father and son were residents of the same state when the transfer occured.

Mike

 

[MtnCreek]

Something else to think about, what if the pistol returns to NJ and is found by NJ police. They are going to run it and it will come back as belonging to your father (per their records). IMHO, living in a place like NJ, additional documentation would be a good idea.

 

[X-Rap]

The chain of ownership is going to be critical if the gun ever turns up in any criminal investigation.

 

[HexHead]

If the gun is used in a crime and is traced they will knock on dad's door. He will tell them he gave it to you so they will come talk to you. You have no paperwork proving you sold the gun. Glad I'm not you.

Why? Happens all the time, the trail runs cold when a person sells a gun FTF to a private party.

 

[Bubbles]

This is incorrect. A person may GIFT (not sell) a handgun to a family member in another state without going through an FFL.

Not being snarky, but I honestly would like to know where this information keeps getting published, because it's 100% wrong and both the giver and recipient would be violating GCA '68.

 

[CoRoMo]

Not only are the chances of that gun being involved in a crime so astronomical as to make a lottery win a sure thing, but until the OP comes back and answers a single question, about the only thing we can offer him is the method in which a handgun is de-registered in NJ. I've tried for the last hour or so, but as far as I can Google, the NJSP record handgun transfers. It is apparent that the OP's father holds dual residency and I'll assume that the OP may have been a Florida resident prior to his Texas residency and the handgun was given to him while him and his dad were residing in FL.

I'm certain that a great many New Jersey gun owners sell their handguns on Gunbroker and therefore you would imagine that the method of un-registering the handgun is out there, but this is about all I could find...

See post #3 and #5 here... http://njgunforums.com/forum/index....to-out-of-state-resident-can-i-ship/?p=501787

Your father might want to contact NJSP and notify them that he has transferred the handgun out of his possession so that it is no longer linked with him in NJ. He can tell them that the trasferee is not a NJ resident and that should end it.

 

[Ryanxia]

After doing some research I sincerely apologize for giving incorrect information regarding the gifting to a family member.

My source was from an experience where a fellow shooter had first said he sold a handgun to his brother in another state and then when realized we would get in trouble back peddled and said it was a gift and the investigation was dropped (to my knowledge). Either that wasn't accurate or there was more to it. Either way, my apologies.

 

[Frank Ettin]

After doing some research I sincerely apologize for giving incorrect information regarding the gifting to a family member.

My source was from an experience where a fellow shooter had first said...

Fair enough, and thank your for getting back with us.

This can help serve as a good lesson for all of us on why we need to be careful about relying for legal information on casual comments by another shooters (unless perhaps he is also an experienced lawyer).

 

[RandyRay41]

So much mud in gun laws. No wonder all the confusion. It should be all cut and dry. A few paragraphs. Constitution did it in one.

 

[aeriedad]

Not even one, really.

 

[mljdeckard]

I concur with #2, word for word.

 

[Sam1911]

The chain of ownership is going to be critical if the gun ever turns up in any criminal investigation.

Not that I can see.

The only potential issue I see is if the chain of custody is traced to your father and he admits to transferring it to a resident of another state. (If that was the case.)

You having once owned a gun does nothing to prove that you were involved in any crime it eventually (who knows how many owners later) was used in.

 

[X-Rap]

The only potential issue I see is if the chain of custody is traced to your father and he admits to transferring it to a resident of another state. (If that was the case.)

Illegal interstate transfer is always an issue if there are gun crimes. It's the foundation that the gov uses to control guns. We haven't heard from the OP regarding this but if they admittedly were residents of different states there could be legal and maybe civil implications.