and its relevance in the grand spectrum of shooting to survive.
http://thesixgunjournal.com/Stopping_Power.htm
http://thesixgunjournal.com/Stopping_Power.htm
Some thoughts on stopping power...
- Thread starter Sarge111
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The_Antibubba
Member
Good article, Sarge-very little crapola.
sm
member
Sarge
Thanks for sharing a well written article.
Agree, gets to the meat of the topic with no fat.
Thanks for sharing a well written article.
Agree, gets to the meat of the topic with no fat.
Lancel
Member
Thanks sarge,
The article's a keeper; it gets above the caliber and platform noise.
Larry
The article's a keeper; it gets above the caliber and platform noise.
Larry
Ryder
Member
Hahha, I got a kick out of his "bitey, stompey, scratchy" terminology.
I've stopped many animals with wide variety of firearms. True that they were stopped trying to escape as opposed to attacking but the concept of using a gun to stop something against it's will remains the same. There is a fair amount of determination required on a shooter's part to successfully stop anything which has a will of it's own.
The cover picture on that book reminds me of the pictures I used to study of large game animals. I always examined my kills analyzing how my shot placement affected the outcome.
I usually find myself contrary to at least something in everything I read but I've no disagreements with this guy. Sounds like he's got the experience to know what he's talking about. You'd never guess it to look at his credentials Dr. Todd R. Olson... Berkley? London? I suspect there's been a safari or two in his past. Look at that picture... Would you tangle with that guy? Hehhe, not me!
I've stopped many animals with wide variety of firearms. True that they were stopped trying to escape as opposed to attacking but the concept of using a gun to stop something against it's will remains the same. There is a fair amount of determination required on a shooter's part to successfully stop anything which has a will of it's own.
The cover picture on that book reminds me of the pictures I used to study of large game animals. I always examined my kills analyzing how my shot placement affected the outcome.
I usually find myself contrary to at least something in everything I read but I've no disagreements with this guy. Sounds like he's got the experience to know what he's talking about. You'd never guess it to look at his credentials Dr. Todd R. Olson... Berkley? London? I suspect there's been a safari or two in his past. Look at that picture... Would you tangle with that guy? Hehhe, not me!
Vern Humphrey
Member
If we HAVE to get controversial, I'll enter my opinion. YOU CAN'T SAY YOU WEREN'T WARNED.
The only useful question any study of "stopping power" can answer is, "What do winner use?" That is useful because on the most superficial level it allows us to choose cartridges and loads that give us an edge. At a deeper level, it allows us to isolate the high-potential combinations and look for the answer to, "WHY do winners win?"
That means the proper measure is simply STOPS/ENCOUNTERS. A stop is defined as the opposition ceases his attack without injuring the defender. An encounter is defined as one or more shots being fired.
The only useful question any study of "stopping power" can answer is, "What do winner use?" That is useful because on the most superficial level it allows us to choose cartridges and loads that give us an edge. At a deeper level, it allows us to isolate the high-potential combinations and look for the answer to, "WHY do winners win?"
That means the proper measure is simply STOPS/ENCOUNTERS. A stop is defined as the opposition ceases his attack without injuring the defender. An encounter is defined as one or more shots being fired.
It 's crapola from one end to the other
because anybody can shoot, stab, or club you 4x per second, with either hand. Since that's true, I'm not at all comforted by "stopping" him in "only" 5 seconds. Men can charge from 30 yds, from a standing start, and twist your head clean around in 5 seconds. .5 of one second is quite possibly too slow to help you any, so 10x that slow is a ridiculous consideration.
because anybody can shoot, stab, or club you 4x per second, with either hand. Since that's true, I'm not at all comforted by "stopping" him in "only" 5 seconds. Men can charge from 30 yds, from a standing start, and twist your head clean around in 5 seconds. .5 of one second is quite possibly too slow to help you any, so 10x that slow is a ridiculous consideration.
Wella, I think you missed the point. He's saying that you shouldn't just stand there expecting your first shot to instantly incapacitate your attacker. A lot can happen in the five seconds it takes him to "stop," so in that time you'd better be moving, taking cover, shooting some more, etc.
Wrong...
Wella, you did miss the point. I don't know where you got the idea that I was 'basing my strategy' on decking the opposition in 5 seconds. I am basing my survival strategy on the fact that it may take at LEAST that long- and that I might have do something besides "stand there and look stupid" in the meantime. Archangel got it. The whole idea is that you plan for the worst, so that anything better is a pleasant surprise. If you think the article is crapola, that's your perogative. Don't recommend it if you don't like it. Actually, I'd love to live in a world where defensive handgun fire always produced half-second results. We'd all load up in the pickup and go lion hunting with .22 rifles.
I'll cite one case, of many, where the "dead man's five seconds" was as real as your hand in front of your face. A totally stoned meth-head/drunk, with many felony convictions behind him, got stopped by a city cop for DWI. He had already decided he wasn't going back to prison this time. Things went wrong and he yanked a blade, slashed our boy bad, and then tried to slash him some more. He wouldn't drop the knife, and tried to circle the car to cut him again. The cop landed a .40/180/HydraShok on him going around the car, which essentially bored an inch hole through a bunch of major organs including the heart, and his breastbone on the way out. He stayed on his feet another 6-8 seconds, and was finally stopped by a moving pickup he walked in front of. The bullet was recovered, perfectly expanded, from his shirt. I reviewed that shooting. That round, if I recall correctly, rates in the low 90% for "one shot stops". This guy was from the 10% that evidently didn't read the book.
Hump- "A stop is defined as the opposition ceases his attack without injuring the defender. An encounter is defined as one or more shots being fired."
Here's what I said-
"A stop is caused by:
1. physiological shutdown caused by interruption of the body's major systems, or
2. the person or thing attacking us decided that it wasn't such a good idea after all.
Since the latter is essentially beyond our control, we must rely upon the former."
It'd be great if the bad guys would just pee down their leg and run off when we looked at them mean. Some will, some won't. Some will quit if you pull a gun, or fire a blank. The whole idea is that you can't count on that, so when ALL ELSE FAILS, you avoid getting shot, land the best hits you can, and then avoid getting shot some more while you get the heck outta there- and live to explain it all.
Ryder-
That was actually me that wrote that article. Olsen's book just happened to be the first anatomy book handy, and I used the photo of it to illustrate the fact that placement is the primary goal we all need to strive for. The article got 'launched ' (my fault) before I had a chance to get the "by Steve Sargent, copyright 2004" inserted under the subtitle.
Glad you liked it anyhow... take care.
PS- The homepage is down for some refurb, but the links previously posted still work.
Wella, you did miss the point. I don't know where you got the idea that I was 'basing my strategy' on decking the opposition in 5 seconds. I am basing my survival strategy on the fact that it may take at LEAST that long- and that I might have do something besides "stand there and look stupid" in the meantime. Archangel got it. The whole idea is that you plan for the worst, so that anything better is a pleasant surprise. If you think the article is crapola, that's your perogative. Don't recommend it if you don't like it. Actually, I'd love to live in a world where defensive handgun fire always produced half-second results. We'd all load up in the pickup and go lion hunting with .22 rifles.
I'll cite one case, of many, where the "dead man's five seconds" was as real as your hand in front of your face. A totally stoned meth-head/drunk, with many felony convictions behind him, got stopped by a city cop for DWI. He had already decided he wasn't going back to prison this time. Things went wrong and he yanked a blade, slashed our boy bad, and then tried to slash him some more. He wouldn't drop the knife, and tried to circle the car to cut him again. The cop landed a .40/180/HydraShok on him going around the car, which essentially bored an inch hole through a bunch of major organs including the heart, and his breastbone on the way out. He stayed on his feet another 6-8 seconds, and was finally stopped by a moving pickup he walked in front of. The bullet was recovered, perfectly expanded, from his shirt. I reviewed that shooting. That round, if I recall correctly, rates in the low 90% for "one shot stops". This guy was from the 10% that evidently didn't read the book.
Hump- "A stop is defined as the opposition ceases his attack without injuring the defender. An encounter is defined as one or more shots being fired."
Here's what I said-
"A stop is caused by:
1. physiological shutdown caused by interruption of the body's major systems, or
2. the person or thing attacking us decided that it wasn't such a good idea after all.
Since the latter is essentially beyond our control, we must rely upon the former."
It'd be great if the bad guys would just pee down their leg and run off when we looked at them mean. Some will, some won't. Some will quit if you pull a gun, or fire a blank. The whole idea is that you can't count on that, so when ALL ELSE FAILS, you avoid getting shot, land the best hits you can, and then avoid getting shot some more while you get the heck outta there- and live to explain it all.
Ryder-
That was actually me that wrote that article. Olsen's book just happened to be the first anatomy book handy, and I used the photo of it to illustrate the fact that placement is the primary goal we all need to strive for. The article got 'launched ' (my fault) before I had a chance to get the "by Steve Sargent, copyright 2004" inserted under the subtitle.
Glad you liked it anyhow... take care.
PS- The homepage is down for some refurb, but the links previously posted still work.
Can I get a concealed carry permit for a pick-up??
Seriously, what I have seen is that there are so many factors at work in actual shootings that is almost impossible to generalize from one case to the next. There are also, amazingly, few actual cases to draw conclusions from. I think we can draw some reasonable conclusions though.
1) There is no magic bullet. That goes for calibre, weight, and weapon as well. People have been killed with .22s and survived multiple hits from a .357.
2) As in real estate, the most important thing is location location location. A head shot through the base of the brain (that is through the upper lip below the nose in the front) is the most effective shot there is. It all goes down from there.
3) Under penetration is a bigger problem than over penetration. Vital organs are deep in the body. A small bullet moving slow will not damage them sufficiently (or is less likely to).
4) More holes increase your chances. You may not get a second shot but if you get the opportunity take it.
I miss anything?
180 gr .40's are nothing much.
smaller OD, smaller nose cavity, slightly less wt, same low velocity as the typical 185 gr .45 jhp, none of which amounted to a damn, either. 12 ga slugs and 00 blasts have failed to stop guys, too, with nicely centered chest hits. However, it's a 1 on 50 or 1 in 100 RARITY. Same goes for failures to stop with good hp's in the .30 Carbine and good sp's in 223 carbines. We CAN match the effects of these latter two loads, on animals, with loads that are controlable in ccw autoloaders. The problem is, such loads go thru level II armor like it was so much butter. So the major ammo makers are never going to offer them to the public.
Howevr, that does not mean that a "one man company" can't or won't do so. Glaser, Mag Safe, Cor Bon, were all one man companies at their beginnings. All it takes is a $500 ammo license, and the good sense to shield one's personal assets with a corporation as the owner of the business, and keep the business accounts mostly empty.
smaller OD, smaller nose cavity, slightly less wt, same low velocity as the typical 185 gr .45 jhp, none of which amounted to a damn, either. 12 ga slugs and 00 blasts have failed to stop guys, too, with nicely centered chest hits. However, it's a 1 on 50 or 1 in 100 RARITY. Same goes for failures to stop with good hp's in the .30 Carbine and good sp's in 223 carbines. We CAN match the effects of these latter two loads, on animals, with loads that are controlable in ccw autoloaders. The problem is, such loads go thru level II armor like it was so much butter. So the major ammo makers are never going to offer them to the public.
Howevr, that does not mean that a "one man company" can't or won't do so. Glaser, Mag Safe, Cor Bon, were all one man companies at their beginnings. All it takes is a $500 ammo license, and the good sense to shield one's personal assets with a corporation as the owner of the business, and keep the business accounts mostly empty.
Mannlicher
Member
Good common sense, and very practical advice. I have followed much of this for many years. Other parts that I have not looked at, will be revisited. Part of his article directly addresses why I never, ever carry a mouse gun
Mr Jody Hudson
Member
More on stopping power...
I have told this a few times and some may have seen it. It goes along with this. A buddy of mine, undercover LEO, was deep into an outlaw biker, drug, fighting, drinking, group of very bad people. They were very used to hurting and being hurt... that is one important difference between BGs and the rest of us. They can have all the front teeth knocked out get cut and grin and cuss ya back...
The LEO was bringing down a big drug bust and his partner, another undercover LEO was first on the scene as a uniformed cop. There is a long story but here is a short version.
Shots are fired inside building before police get into position. BG runs out of building straight at partner, who is in uniform with shotgun. BG has pistol and is running straight at LEO, all other cops have dived for safety at sound of shots. LEO puts every round of slugs and buck from long mag 12 ga. 870 into chest of big BG. BG takes every round, drops pistol, and kills LEO with the empty shotgun by sledging LEOs head and neck with empty gun. BG runs off for a long ways, over 100 yards and dies with a chest full of mush, slugs and buck.
It can be a very long and deadly 5 seconds, which is a point of the story.
Points: BG was used to hurting and being hurt. BG was probably hopped up on drugs and alcohol. BG was big and strong. BG was pumping adrenaline and he was already IN a gun battle from inside when he ran outside. Even a 12 gauge, many shots, may not stop a BG fast enough.
As the article says, shoot, get out of the way and keep shooting and as was inferred... when the long gun is empty keep out of the way and fill the BG with pistol rounds...
I have told this a few times and some may have seen it. It goes along with this. A buddy of mine, undercover LEO, was deep into an outlaw biker, drug, fighting, drinking, group of very bad people. They were very used to hurting and being hurt... that is one important difference between BGs and the rest of us. They can have all the front teeth knocked out get cut and grin and cuss ya back...
The LEO was bringing down a big drug bust and his partner, another undercover LEO was first on the scene as a uniformed cop. There is a long story but here is a short version.
Shots are fired inside building before police get into position. BG runs out of building straight at partner, who is in uniform with shotgun. BG has pistol and is running straight at LEO, all other cops have dived for safety at sound of shots. LEO puts every round of slugs and buck from long mag 12 ga. 870 into chest of big BG. BG takes every round, drops pistol, and kills LEO with the empty shotgun by sledging LEOs head and neck with empty gun. BG runs off for a long ways, over 100 yards and dies with a chest full of mush, slugs and buck.
It can be a very long and deadly 5 seconds, which is a point of the story.
Points: BG was used to hurting and being hurt. BG was probably hopped up on drugs and alcohol. BG was big and strong. BG was pumping adrenaline and he was already IN a gun battle from inside when he ran outside. Even a 12 gauge, many shots, may not stop a BG fast enough.
As the article says, shoot, get out of the way and keep shooting and as was inferred... when the long gun is empty keep out of the way and fill the BG with pistol rounds...
Thanks. That was an entertaining post.
What bothers me about these anecdotes is that virtually everyone has a story about how some BG took 50 rounds of .50BMG through the skull and still managed to do damage after that (I am exaggerating here). And a lot of those stories are probably true. There are so many variables in shootings that some freak accidents and outcomes are bound to happen. I think we should be aware that they can happen but that they are hardly the norm and probably not even something to worry overly much about.
What bothers me about these anecdotes is that virtually everyone has a story about how some BG took 50 rounds of .50BMG through the skull and still managed to do damage after that (I am exaggerating here). And a lot of those stories are probably true. There are so many variables in shootings that some freak accidents and outcomes are bound to happen. I think we should be aware that they can happen but that they are hardly the norm and probably not even something to worry overly much about.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
I agree that there is no "one size fits all" in these deals. Not even when you're talking adrenalin and physical shock.
I had a buddy who was a USMC Medic in WW II, from Guadalcanal on through VJ Day. He commented at how surprised he was about some of our guys going into shock from rather minor wounds in combat, while some Japanese were brought in in serious condition but suffering not at all from shock.
Fast forward to the Vietnam era, when our GIs were surviving horrendus wounds, but civilians would literally die from shock from such as a .22 bullet in a non-vital area. (This from a couple of medical journal articles of the time.)
Art
I had a buddy who was a USMC Medic in WW II, from Guadalcanal on through VJ Day. He commented at how surprised he was about some of our guys going into shock from rather minor wounds in combat, while some Japanese were brought in in serious condition but suffering not at all from shock.
Fast forward to the Vietnam era, when our GIs were surviving horrendus wounds, but civilians would literally die from shock from such as a .22 bullet in a non-vital area. (This from a couple of medical journal articles of the time.)
Art
Vern Humphrey
Member
Neck down the .45 GAP, and you won't have any case left.
Neck down the .45 GAP, and you won't have any case left.
Perfect! That means it will definetely fit in a small grip frame!
I would hate to hear small handed people whine about the HUGE grip on my soon to be released 9/45 automag. BTW in preliminary testing the 9/45 has 125% one shot stops...that means everyone shot with it is stopped and 1 in 4 times the BGs friend who witnessed the awesome power of the 9/45 died of shock.
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Vern Humphrey
Member
Quote:
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BTW in preliminary testing the 9/45 has 125% one shot stops...
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How long after the shooting are the craters radioactive?
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BTW in preliminary testing the 9/45 has 125% one shot stops...
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How long after the shooting are the craters radioactive?
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