Is the Browning Hi-Power still relevant?

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My point is; traditional, single-action, manual-safety, centerfire, autoloading handguns (1911, BHP) aren't the ideal platform from which to launch a shooting novice into high-stress, defensive shooting situations.
Nonsense!
The military has done it for years and years....and continues to do so.
You're forgetting, the military mandates that the pistol will be carried hammer down on an empty chamber, which means you can't just draw and fire, negligently or otherwise. You have to rack the slide first. This is fine for military use, because the pistol is purely a secondary weapon for a soldier. For law enforcement or civilians, however, the pistol will likely be the primary weapon used for self defense, and is not carried that way.

For better-or-worse, from a ready-to-fire condition,...it IS easier (quicker, with less effort) to get a BHP to fire than a G34.
How do you figure?
A loaded Glock has no manual safety and does not have a heavy double-action trigger....just point and shoot.
How is a BHP "easier quicker, with less effort"?

As I see it, the Glock is easier and quicker for novices to shoot than any pistol with a manual safety.
But a single action is easier for them to fumble with, or to have a negligent discharge with its lighter trigger. To incorporate the motions in your draw into muscle memory, you need to practice drawing and presenting (and disengaging the safety if your pistol has one) over and over. It takes, generally speaking, 3000+ repetitions of a motion to commit it to muscle memory, and then you still need to practice after that to maintain it. How many civilian shooters do this? My guess would be hardly any. But with a single action, you need to do this even more scrupulously, thanks to the need to disengage the safety, and thanks to the lighter trigger. Also, for law enforcement, who may have to hold suspects at gun point, the light single action trigger is seen by many as a liability, since it may be more easily pulled unintentionally under stress.

However, the single action is easier and quicker for someone who has trained with it and committed its manual of operation to muscle memory. The short, light trigger enables a highly trained shooter to place accurate shots more rapidly and more consistently than any other platform, which is why the single action dominates shooting sports like IPSC and IDPA, and why it's still the first choice of special operations personnel.
 
What a pointless argument.

The BHP is relevant as long as people still buy them and shoot them. It is wonderful old school design and it suits many shooters.

What does it matter if someone else does not want one. For those who love them that means more for us. For those who don't simply move on buy what you like.

There is no one single solution for all shooters. Everyone of us is different so it would make no sense for there to be 100% consciouses on any given pistol.
 
Thanks Billy Shears, you beat me to my response.

Well-trained, experienced pistoleros still do (and always will) like some "old-school" designs. Quick Draw guys still like the SAA. IPSC/IDPA guys still like the 1911. I still like the BHP. And as long as I do, it will still be relevant...to ME! While I can easily rationalize this choice all afternoon long, and wonder/guess why more folks don't feel the same way. I really don't need to justify anything. Everyone go out, put a BHP in your hand & SHOOT IT! A number of shooters will say "WOW" & a number of shooters will say "YUCK". It's been my experience that the WOWs usually outnumber the YUCKs by a strong margin. Past that? No excuse needed.

In these 150+ responses, has ANYONE said "I would've OWN a (deleted) BHP because they're all (deleted) junk!" Heck, it's hard to find any design we've mentioned that someboby doesn't hate.
 
You're forgetting, the military mandates that the pistol will be carried hammer down on an empty chamber, which means you can't just draw and fire, negligently or otherwise. You have to rack the slide first.
This is a widespread misconception of the truth....
This is true in training, and often in secure areas far from the frontlines....but not in forward hostile areas or on patrol.
When I was in Iraq, those that carried pistols did so with one in the chamber and ready to draw and fire (101st ABN DIV (AASLT)).
Don't confuse "official training doctrine per the manual" with actual applied tactics....nobody knowingly goes in to hostile territory with an empty chamber.

But a single action is easier for them to fumble with, or to have a negligent discharge with its lighter trigger.
Not if that SA has a manual safety.
Besides, how much difference is there in the trigger weight?
What's the trigger weight of the BHP?
According to FN's website, their BHP has a trigger weight of 2.5-4.5 lbs.
The Glock has about a 5 lb. trigger.
Not too much difference if you're careless with either.

It takes, generally speaking, 3000+ repetitions of a motion to commit it to muscle memory, and then you still need to practice after that to maintain it.
More nonsense....
One does not need to practice 3000+ reps in order to draw a Glock, point, aim, and pull the trigger.
It's just not that difficult.
 
This is a widespread misconception of the truth....
This is true in training, and often in secure areas far from the frontlines....but not in forward hostile areas or on patrol.
When I was in Iraq, those that carried pistols did so with one in the chamber and ready to draw and fire (101st ABN DIV (AASLT)).
Don't confuse "official training doctrine per the manual" with actual applied tactics....nobody knowingly goes in to hostile territory with an empty chamber.
The M9 is a modern double action design with a firing pin safety that the military's previous, single action pistol did not have.

Not if that SA has a manual safety.
The manual safety is easy to fumble with if you haven't trained yourself to do it smoothly and unconsciously, so that you'll be capable of doing it under stress.

Besides, how much difference is there in the trigger weight?
What's the trigger weight of the BHP?
According to FN's website, their BHP has a trigger weight of 2.5-4.5 lbs.
The Glock has about a 5 lb. trigger.
Not too much difference if you're careless with either.
I've yet to see a BHP with a trigger of 2.5 lbs. Usually it's between 5-8. And most police departments, again out of fear of liability, mandate the New York trigger, which ups the weight to 8lbs.

More nonsense....
One does not need to practice 3000+ reps in order to draw a Glock, point, aim, and pull the trigger.
It's just not that difficult.
Nonsense eh? Well maybe you can explain why my department, and every other department, as well as firearms training outfits like Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Blackwater, Lethal Force Institute, and others all teach you to practice your draw over and over and over again. 3000+ times. In order to build the motion into your muscle memory. If you want to be smooth and fast -- and your life may depend on your ability to draw quickly without sacrificing accuracy -- you damn well better practice those 3000+ repetitions.

It's clear to me from the above comment that you frankly don't know what the hell you're talking about. If you did, you wouldn't say something so asinine. When you are suddenly faced with a potentially lethal threat, your body goes into fight or flight mode. Adrenaline, and a whole pharmacy of other drugs gets dumped into your bloodstream. This increases your speed and strength for either fight or flight, but it throws your fine motor skills out the window. Psychologists tell us that in times of extreme stress, the unconscious -- which is thought to be the repository of survival instincts, “muscle memory,” learned responses and emergency reflexes -- takes over from the conscious mind. Survivors of gunfights report temporal and auditory distortion and a narrowing of the field of vision to focus on the threat. All of this profoundly changes your ability to hit what you are shooting at for the worse, and it means that the first time you are faced with a lethal threat is not the moment work out new fighting techniques. Knowledgeable professionals, which you clearly are not, who carry a gun and may may have to use it to defend their lives practice, practice, practice, in order to build their responses into muscle memory and achieve that level of unconscious competence that allows them to deploy their weapons instantaneously and without any conscious thought.
 
dogtowntom:

Wow, that's almost shameless theft. Congratulations. She a beauty!

Doc2005
 
How can it not be? It's a modern pistol. Every modern pistol out there is a knock-off of the Hi-Power except for the SA trigger. There's nothing obsolete about it. Sure, it may be more expensive to make, but that's because they actually take the time to fit the parts. It's not an assembly line gun with loose tolerances, but it's design is pretty much exactly like every other gun currently being made. The cost to manufacture it may be it's demise, but not it's design.
 
I just picked this one out the Classifieds here on THR:

hipowerfixed2.jpg

hipowerfixed1.jpg

The pistol has been to Don at The Action Works for a trigger job,
C&S wide trigger & Commander hammer.
Heine sights install.
The slide has been re-blued.
Grips are black Navidrex

$600 shipped. I consider that relevant.
 
It's clear to me from the above comment that you frankly don't know what the hell you're talking about. If you did, you wouldn't say something so asinine. When you are suddenly faced with a potentially lethal threat,....
Billy, I don't know what your own experience is but I have been in combat in Iraq, and I know all about facing "potentially lethal threats".

Have you ever been shot at by a squad of enemy soldiers?
 
Rellascout, nice pistol!

What do you think about the placement of the safety lever?
Do you have to adjust your grip in order to switch it off safe?

Thanks,
Easy.
 
No not at all. I will be replacing the standard ambi with a extended C&S so it is setup like my other ones.
 
Billy, I don't know what your own experience is but I have been in combat in Iraq, and I know all about facing "potentially lethal threats".

Have you ever been shot at by a squad of enemy soldiers?
No, but I've been shot at by thugs on the street, and their bullets kill people just as dead. I've also been in the army (MOS 11B, 2/35IN, 25th Div. Tropic Lightning, '97-'00), so I know what training the infantry gets with pistols: none. Unless you are an officer or senior NCO issued one. I never was, not even after PLDC when I had three stripes on my collar. There are too many other things that take up limited training time for the army to focus on training everyone on a weapon that most of them will never even carry.

For police, on the other hand, the pistol is the primary weapon. If you know trouble's coming, you grab a shotgun or patrol rifle, but since you don't always know, and you can't carry them everywhere in law enforcement, you train primarily with the pistol, because that's what you always have with you.

So I know whereof I speak, and when you dismiss the need to practice those 3000+ repetitions and practice your draw as "more nonsense", it's clear to me that you haven't had any extensive training with a pistol, and don't know what you are talking about, because that's absolutely contrary to the training that people like me who carry a gun for a living are getting these days.
 
So I know whereof I speak, and when you dismiss the need to practice those 3000+ repetitions and practice your draw as "more nonsense", it's clear to me that you haven't had any extensive training with a pistol, and don't know what you are talking about, because that's absolutely contrary to the training that people like me who carry a gun for a living are getting these days.
Some folks just need more practice than others I suppose....heck, some folks will never be competent regardless of the number of times they practice.
They can practice 10,000+ times and still screw it up.

But here's a bit of psychobabble to consider.....

If you have convinced yourself that you MUST practice 3000+ draws in order to be competent, then you will NEED to practice 3000+ draws in order to be competent.
You've already convinced yourself that any number less equals failure, regardless of the truth.
 
Whoa, up! We attack the argument here...not the member. Step back and take a breath, Billy. If it turns into a brawl, I'll close it.
Sorry, but although I am not being deliberately contentious, I make no apologies for my tone. I think it was appropriate given the provocation. It was not I, after all, who derisively dismissed the comments of another board member as "nonsense". That is frankly insulting. It is doubly so when the person so dismissing is clearly speaking out of ignorance. Easyg could have said something like "It doesn't seem to me like it ought to require 3000 times to learn how to draw and fire a Glock". He did not opt for respectful disagreement, he chose to do so in way that was dismissive and therefore insulting.

Well, as I said, it's not nonsense. It happens to reflect the most advanced current training when it comes to carrying and using a pistol for self defense, training that has been devised after decades of law enforcement and civilian shootings were scrutinized. If easyg wants to dismiss that training as "nonsense", he has every right to do so. But he has, I think, little right to be offended at getting an equally disrespectful response in reply.
 
Billy...Easyg...Let's try to agree that, on the one hand...repetitive practice is a good thing, and the more we do, the better we get...PROVIDED...that it's good practice. A wise quote that I don't know who to attribute to made the most sense that I've seen in a while. To wit:

"Practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent."

Let's also agree that some people are blessed with the hand-eye coordination that allows them to perfect a move quickly...and some aren't.

And now, let's move on before this one goes south.

The Hi-Power is a good pistol. If I had to pick one up and go, I wouldn't feel at any sort of disadvantage unless I was facing the Hordes of Atilla. It's not a perfect pistol...and there are none that are. In the end, there is only what we choose. Choose wisely. Work diligently. Pray that you don't need it, and if you do...pray that you'll be lucky. Remember that you have to be lucky every time your attacker pulls the trigger. He only has to get lucky once.

And, Billy...Always be apologetic when you put a toe across the line. It's just the right thing to do.

Cheers, all.

Baker's at the dip! Stand down!
 
As others have noted, the trend in military and law enforcement communities has been toward some type of DA pistol. This part of the discussion seems beyond refutation. What can be argued, as this lengthy thread demonstrates, is the relevance of the BHP design. To me, it remains a relevant design, but probably not the best with which to train "rookies". I see merit in the switch to DA designs, particularly for those who will rely upon a hangun as their primary weapon. Yes, I think the BHP is a fine handgun. But I think it, along with the 1911 design, has been superceded by other semi-auto pistols for military and law enforcement usages. I do not see this trend as reversible, but a discussion about such a topic would prove interesting.


Timthinker
 
A little civility please, gentlemen. We're discussing the merits of the BHP, not military/civilian/LE training doctrine.

Thank you.
-
 
Some folks just need more practice than others I suppose....heck, some folks will never be competent regardless of the number of times they practice.
They can practice 10,000+ times and still screw it up.

But here's a bit of psychobabble to consider.....

If you have convinced yourself that you MUST practice 3000+ draws in order to be competent, then you will NEED to practice 3000+ draws in order to be competent.
You've already convinced yourself that any number less equals failure, regardless of the truth.
Or, one could very sensibly take the view that, practicing 3000+ repetitions of a motion is a small price to pay for ensuring one has the skills to call upon when the $#!& hits the fan, rather than discovering too late that one hasn't.

You can dismiss this if you like. It's your ass. But no one achieves unconscious competence without lots of practice. Tiger Woods isn't the best at golf just because he's naturally gifted. He's the best because he's gifted, and because he practices more than anyone else. Michael Jordan wasn't the best on the basketball court because he's naturally gifted, he was the best because he cultivated his talent with lots and lots of practice.

If this applies to sport, how much more so to defensive use of a firearm, where the stakes are orders of magnitude higher. If Tiger Woods missed a put, or Jordan missed a free throw, they only risked losing a game. If you screw up in a gunfight, you risk losing your life. If you really were in the army, then you must have heard the saying "you fight like you train."

It's a documented fact that people revert to training under this kind of extreme stress. In the investigation following the tragic CHP Newhall gunfight that left four CHP officers dead, it was found:

“…that officers would react to a situation exactly the way they were taught in training. This occurred with Officer Pence. After Officer Pence had fired his sixth and last round, he tried to perform and reload just the way he was taught at the academy. He dumped the expended rounds from his revolver into his right hand and put the expended rounds in his pants pocket, as he had done on the firing range, then reloaded 6 rounds into his revolver. This gave Twining enough time to flank Pence and put a bullet in the back of his head. After the California Highway Patrol learned of this they issued speed loaders to their officers and changed their firearms training program to reflect real life shooting scenarios.”

– Tom Kohl, STAYING ALIVE ON THE JOB - A SURVIVAL GUIDE FOR PEACE OFFICERS


This is a perfect illustration of the principle that we fight like we train. We revert to it totally without conscious thought. Even when it makes no sense, even when it may be the worst thing in the world to do, people under extreme stress almost invariably tend to default and revert to the methods they have practiced and rehearsed. In this particular case, the training this officer had received caused him to put empty cases in his pocket, wasting precious seconds while a bad guy was moving to a better position to shoot him. No doubt he and his fellow troopers trained that way so as to save themselves the bother of scrabbling around in the dirt for empty brass after shooting. But it had the effect of ingraining a useless set of movements into his muscle memory that he unthinkingly reverted to in combat.

Now in the case of the draw, the reason you practice 3000+ times is so that you can do it smoothly and quickly, without conscious thought, even while running, crouching, turning, possibly even falling, and still get an accurate first shot off from the holster as fast as possible. If you don't practice those 3000+ repetitions, it's a fact that you won't be as fast or as smooth. Maybe you'll still be lucky enough to shoot the bad guy first. If you want to depend on luck, be my guest. I'd rather stack the deck just as much in my favor as humanly possible, thank you very much.
 
Billy...Easyg...Let's try to agree that, on the one hand...repetitive practice is a good thing, and the more we do, the better we get...PROVIDED...that it's good practice. A wise quote that I don't know who to attribute to made the most sense that I've seen in a while. To wit:

"Practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent."

Let's also agree that some people are blessed with the hand-eye coordination that allows them to perfect a move quickly...and some aren't.

And now, let's move on before this one goes south.
My last post was being typed while you posted this. I'm perfectly willing to leave it here though. I think I've made my point as well as it can be made.
 
This has been a good and useful discussion on a number of levels I think.

I think the question of the transition to da/sa handguns by the military and law enforcement is an important one that should be taken up in another thread. It's a transition that has been much discussed but is clearly still relevant. I also think that for some it's the heart of the matter if they hold the opinion that the P35 is irrelevant.

One thing oughta be clear, we usually don't spend 7 pages discussing an irrelevant handgun.

tipoc
 
The fact that the Charles Daly version, the FEG version, the Argentine version, the Arcus, Kareens, etc. even exist is a testament to the Hi Power's success. They say imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, by that logic, John Browning and Saive must be quite flattered wherever they are spending eternity. I've owned two FEG versions, one Argentine, and one actual Browning, all four functioned flawlessly, all four cycled every round I put in it, all four were more than enough for me. Yes, there are technologically better pistols out now, but the Hi Power still will get my attention faster than anything else out there.
 
I wonder if the Glock 17 or the Ruger SR9 will be generating this amount of discussion and affection (in most cases) when they have been around for 73 years?

I suspect not. :rolleyes:

I first laid hands on an Inglis BHP almost 50 years ago and my first thought was, "This is one classy little gun!". Sort of like the '57 T-Bird of pistols...
 
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