Sporterized O3A3...but what do I have exactly?

[Climb512]

I received this rifle from my grandpa. He didn't know anything about it other than it came from his dad and he thinks he built it. I know a little about shooting and firearms but this has required some research and I'm looking for some insights from you fine folks. My first surprise is that the caliber is not .30 it's .25?! I had never heard of a 25-06 before. I bought some cartridges and it chambers a round just fine. The front sight is missing but there is a hole drilled in the barrel for a post...what can I install here? The rear peep sight flips up and the aperture is housed in the grip of the stock. It is similar to a Howe-Whelen combination safety & bolt peep sight (thanks Google) but can anyone ID this? Is it missing parts? I figured out that the safety only works after the bolt has been closed?...seems odd. The threaded cap in the stock for the aperture housing has two pins on it that fit a keyed cover in the butt which opens up a hollow chamber...for what? I didn't realize the receiver had dovetails on it already and ordered the S&K no tap/drill mount, rings and a scope. Once I discovered the dovetails, I discovered they are not picatinny/weaver but measure around 5/8" which per Google are used for .22lr frequently. I'm not sure I can even mount the S&K anymore, so now I need to either find 5/8" rings or picatinny/weaver mounts. Any other ideas? I really want to shoot this and see how it performs but I'm a bit hesitant because I don't know the history. I don't know if my great-grandpa ever shot it either because it doesn't appear to be complete.

 

[mokin]

Welcome to the forum. I can't help you but that is a beautiful rifle chambered for a sweet cartridge.

 

[BigBlue 94]

That rear sight is different indeed

Ditch the 22/air gun scope mount. Use some set screws and blue loctite to plug the holes if you like, and mount the new scope and such.

Definitely not a factory barrel profile, let alone its in 25-06.

I just bought an unmolested Remington 03A3 myself. Stock has a couple cracks but otherwise its in solid shape.

I have some 25-06 brass for sale here in the classifieds if you are interested.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

A lot of European and European-esque builds used those small-rail rings on the thin tube, usually single magnification scopes back in the day. It's a tough rabbit hole to go down to complete one of those outfits to one's satisfaction.

The front mount screw spacing will also tell you if you are custom-doomed or can merely replace it.

Show us as good a photo of your front sight attaching point as well as the muzzle and the chamber. It'd be good to know if it was rebarrelled to .25 or merely sleeved.

Thank you for providing such quality photos when asking for information.

Todd.

 

[natman]

25-06 is a popular cartridge, but if your great-grandfather made the rifle it was a non-standard wildcat then. This means that it may or may not be chambered to match modern 25-06 specifications. Before you even think about shooting it, take the rifle to a gunsmith and have him make a chamber cast, so you know exactly what you're dealing with.

 

[Climb512]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the quick responses. @BigBlue 94 I'll think about the brass...I don't reload but wouldn't mind having the ability eventually. Your O3A3 looks good and makes for a good comparison to mine! Seems like a lot of work was done to mine. @ApacheCoTodd I took some new pics that I think will answer more questions. I believe the screw spacing is standard but can you confirm? Also, there is only one set screw on the rear mount. I bought an Athlon BTR 6-24x50 to mount...I hope I can figure it out. @natman I did take it to a gunsmith but he didn't do a cast and just said it was a 25-06 after he had it for a few days...he didn't charge me anything either. Maybe find a new gunsmith? I found a signature and an "S" or "5" on the chamber...can you guys read it? A few Google searches and maybe this is a .25 Krag? It looks like it may say Krag / Lee. My first Google search showed Col. Townsend Whelen owned rifles of this caliber...which is a little strange since the peep side might be a Whelen design...thoughts? That caliber would be older than the O3A3 though if I'm reading this right... EDIT: nevermind...that doesn't make sense since it will chamber and eject the 25-06 round just fine.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

More great photos.

Your *87* dimension is going to be matchable as I assume it's the same as say; a Remington 700.

The rear having a single screw is not an issue as it uses the existing dovetail for orientation and securing and the screw merely fixes is on the dovetail.

Looks like it is an entirely different barrel. Though it's still not completely certain that it wasn't sleeved, most would not have re-turned the exterior if they intended to take a short cut in sleeving.

.25 Krag has been exclusively a rimmed cartridge in my experience so, I wouldn't lean in that direction.

The engraving other than the *Lee* and the *S* is hard for me to tell but I could be swayed towards Krag though it makes little sense to me. But then, who ever really knows about customs?

Can you take a photo of the engraving on the chamber with your flash disabled?

As far as the scope bases are concerned, I'd be more inclined to make them work as-is.

That is quite a nice mil-surp-custom and keeping it contemporary as possible would be my goal.

The trigger-guard-floorplate, exquisite bolt handle, turned bolt, rear sight/safety, etc... Someone REALLY loved that rifle. The aperture in the grip-base is a new one on me. Great touch, that.

Todd.

 

[BigBlue 94]

The engraving other than the *Lee* and the *S* is hard for me to tell but I could be swayed towards Krag though it makes little sense to me. But then, who ever really knows about customs?

It looks more like Kreg or Hreg to me. That second letter is definitely an "r" and the third looks like an "e".


OP
BTW, the serial number places original mfg. in November of '43. Mine was half a million rifles before, in March of '43.

Are there any markings on the exterior of the barrel? Have you removed the action from the stock?

 

[natman]

@natman I did take it to a gunsmith but he didn't do a cast and just said it was a 25-06 after he had it for a few days...he didn't charge me anything either. Maybe find a new gunsmith? I found a signature and an "S" or "5" on the chamber...can you guys read it? A few Google searches and maybe this is a .25 Krag? It looks like it may say Krag / Lee. My first Google search showed Col. Townsend Whelen owned rifles of this caliber...which is a little strange since the peep side might be a Whelen design...thoughts? That caliber would be older than the O3A3 though if I'm reading this right... EDIT: nevermind...that doesn't make sense since it will chamber and eject the 25-06 round just fine.

Your gunsmith's advice is worth what you paid for it. He might be right, but the only way to tell is to do a cast. The fact that it will fit a 25-06 round only means that the chamber is at least big enough to fit one. That rules out some rounds, but the chamber could be LARGER than a 25-06 which could be dangerous if you fired a 25-06 in it. if you take a cast, you will KNOW what the chamber is, and this is an area where knowing what you're dealing with is a very good idea.

 

[BigBlue 94]

Your gunsmith's advice is worth what you paid for it. He might be right, but the only way to tell is to do a cast. The fact that it will fit a 25-06 round only means that the chamber is at least big enough to fit one. That rules out some rounds, but the chamber could be LARGER than a 25-06 which could be dangerous if you fired a 25-06 in it. if you take a cast, you will KNOW what the chamber is, and this is an area where knowing what you're dealing with is a very good idea.

Ditto. I have a sporterized Gew98 with zero barrel markings. A 30-06 fits snug, and my grandpa's notes say its 30-06, but im not taking the chance. One of these days ill cast the chamber.

 

[Mauser lover]

Look up cerrosafe. You’ve probably never heard of the stuff, but you probably have the capability to do your own chamber cast. Sometimes, The only thing lacking is learning...

 

[BigBlue 94]

Look up cerrosafe. You’ve probably never heard of the stuff, but you probably have the capability to do your own chamber cast. Sometimes, The only thing lacking is learning...

Got a half pound of it floating around somewhere!

 

[unklebuck]

I received this rifle from my grandpa. He didn't know anything about it other than it came from his dad and he thinks he built it. I know a little about shooting and firearms but this has required some research and I'm looking for some insights from you fine folks. My first surprise is that the caliber is not .30 it's .25?! I had never heard of a 25-06 before. I bought some cartridges and it chambers a round just fine. The front sight is missing but there is a hole drilled in the barrel for a post...what can I install here? The rear peep sight flips up and the aperture is housed in the grip of the stock. It is similar to a Howe-Whelen combination safety & bolt peep sight (thanks Google) but can anyone ID this? Is it missing parts? I figured out that the safety only works after the bolt has been closed?...seems odd. The threaded cap in the stock for the aperture housing has two pins on it that fit a keyed cover in the butt which opens up a hollow chamber...for what? I didn't realize the receiver had dovetails on it already and ordered the S&K no tap/drill mount, rings and a scope. Once I discovered the dovetails, I discovered they are not picatinny/weaver but measure around 5/8" which per Google are used for .22lr frequently. I'm not sure I can even mount the S&K anymore, so now I need to either find 5/8" rings or picatinny/weaver mounts. Any other ideas? I really want to shoot this and see how it performs but I'm a bit hesitant because I don't know the history. I don't know if my great-grandpa ever shot it either because it doesn't appear to be complete.View attachment 971653
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[unklebuck]

I'm not positive, but you may have a very unique rifle there. If it's not what I think it is, I'm sure you could all benefit from reading this article. Go to Armourer's Bench and read the article 'Remington Hybrid .303 M1903'. I have read it over again, and found it more interesting the second time. I also see some resemblance to parts on your rifle.

 

[Mauser lover]

Got a half pound of it floating around somewhere!

I meant the OP. But it sounds like it would be just the ticket for your issue too.

 

[Climb512]

Thanks guys. I haven't made much headway in the research. I haven't disassembled the rifle at all for fear of not putting it back together correctly...I'm a pretty mechanical minded person but I'm hesitant to tear into this. There are no other markings on the gun that I can find except possibly another engraving in the chamber but I need a bore scope to see it. I cannot find any rear sight similar to mine except the Howe-Whelen combo but there are still differences. I've been down quite the rabbit hole searching from Niedner who developed the .25-06 and made rifles on 1903 Springfield actions (Not 03A3) for Col. Townsend Whelen, Whelen worked with James Howe, they helped form Griffin & Howe, Howe left and went to the Hoffman Arms Co, which started in OH but moved to OK (where my great-grandfather was from). The style of the gun with the cheek weld, bare turned bolt and compartments in the grip and butt seem to match the Hoffman and Griffin & Howe styles (maybe this is true for all sporters though?). All of this however seems to pre-date the O3A3! A lot of my information came from this article; Bolt Action Pioneers (rifleshootermag.com). Maybe a gunsmith had some leftover or prototype stuff from one or several of these companies? I assume there would be a marking on it if it was from one of these companies though.
@ApacheCoTodd I found some 5/8" rings for a 1" scope tube that are vintage so it looks like I can keep it this way but they won't fit the 30mm scope I just bought though. The trigger pull is very light and it makes me wonder how well this will group and what the intended purpose was. I tried to get a better pic of the engraving and edit it but couldn't get it any clearer.
@natman and @Mauser lover, thanks for the tip about the casting and the cerrosafe, I think I can pull that off. I'll check with the pricing from a gunsmith though, I won't have another use for an iron ladle!
@BigBlue 94, can you take a pic of the end of your bolt? Like in the article @unklebuck posted? Mine looks almost exactly like the bolt in that article and I'm wondering what the difference is. Thanks for that link too, there are some resemblances to be sure and is interesting reading. I may not ever know the story behind this gun or where it all came from but it's a fun mystery to try and figure out.

 

[BigBlue 94]

Here ya go @Climb512

 

[Climb512]

Thanks man, mine looks exactly like yours.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

The intended use? Almost certainly precision hunting. A target or varmint guy wouldn't likely bother with that cool rear sight and its stow-away design.

Front was likely a Lyman. or maybe Redfield. Maybe even a factory Remington sport sight.

I only see one threaded hole for the front sight. Is there another out of frame, perhaps? Single screw front ramps are a bit thinner on the ground than twin-screw. Also if it is single screw, it might've been a slip-over design though the barrel photos don't show sign of that type's mounting.

Todd.